[MOD] More Naval AI

Yeah but at the moment its at least a choice - besides 2 death 1 adepts are better then one (for a stack) while 2 Body 1 (for example) adepts are awesome at the start, but get weaker (comparatively) as time goes on.

Is that the genesis one?
Too late game IMO.
I concede your point there too, though. ;)

Why did it get annoying?
That could work as a sheaim thing - there very weak atm. (IMO)
 
Yes, sheaim with free skelliea is precisely the idea I had in mind.
 
The reason it got annoying is cause skelliea plus inflatuon made me bankrupt and I had to concede to the ai bc I couldn't afford skelliea ny more
 
I never spawn skerlles except when actively attacking.
 
I was
 
But I suppose I also kept the highly promoted ones...
 
A few ideas.

Sheaim adepts can get spell extension early

Sheaim get a second such spell to summon skeleton warrior, but takes two turns instead of one. And requires death 1 + combat 3. The warrior gets 50% vs skeletons + undead slaying, and can use copper weapons.
 
No more spells.
Its not in the scope of the mod (IMO).
 
Is the warriors use copper, swords use copper/iron, chamipons use copper/iton/mithril thing in MNAI?
 
I guess one approach oils be to have sheaim palace give death, entropy, chaos

Instead of death fire chaos. Gets them closer to necromancy tower.

In my mod their palace
Is currently death entrop mind, as I believe it
More accurately depicts ceridwen's influence without introducing a new sphere. Plus fire n death r
Both summon spheres, and fire is only marginally better overall*. Chaos is nearly useless to them, other than mutated adepts (maybe), and entropy1 is quite useful. Plus, mind1 partially makes
Up for
Their
Tech difficiency


*fire3 best summon, fire2 useful but death2 is 2nd best summon, fire1 useless, but
Fire2 is
Much better
Than death2 without extra nodes.
 
AI still builds too many mages and...okay, in some cases it works - fireballing, summoning mages, but civilizations without fireballing/ summoning - their mages suck, especially at defence. Yeah, defending cites with mages is not the best idea anyway...I was attacking ljofo cities and instead of defending with archers (longbowman) - I found countless number of useless mages...


Maybe take defensive bonus away from mages, so the AI won't build and use them that way? Like with mounted units.



MC suggested I copy this over to here to see if it makes sense to anyone.


I've finished a long game as the Amurites. Normal speed, huge world. (don't mind my spelling here) So to review. There's a lot of interesting stuff in the game. And I appreciate that. I appreciate all the hard work you and others have done for what is really just a hobby.

That said, I think the player tends to be over powered relative to the AI. And that is particularly true with the magic. Now I really don't know what is possible in terms of programming the AI behavior. But what I would suggest, if it were possible, is something like this:

When an AI stack approaches an enemy:

  • Is there siege, if yes, siege reduces fortifications.
  • If no fortifications bonus, siege attacks first.
  • Stack sorted by spell casters or not spell casters.
  • If spell caster can use a spell that will damage the enemy, spell cast.
  • If spellcaster cannot use a spell that can damage the enemy, can spellcaster summon a unit? If yes, unit summoned.
  • If spellcaster cannot use spell that damages the enemy or summons a unit, can it cast a spell that benifts allies? If yes, casts spell.
  • If spellcaster cannot do that either, spellcaster goes to the end of the que.
  • Once all spellcasters have casted or gone to the end of the que, all summoned units attack.
  • Normal units attack.

If that is possible to program, I think that would balance the game play a bit. As is, the player can learn to use magic effectively, and it makes a massive difference in the combat effectiveness of the game play. I should have lost this game, but I won because I could use magic in a devastating way, and the AI might as well have not had any magic.

Further, I would nerf the magic as a whole. Not only can the player use it far more effectively, but it's just too powerful when used effectively. As an example, I have this stack:

Spoiler :
miniciv4screenshot0068.jpg


1 Man at Arms casts Haste, and 1 Chanter casts Shadowwalk, and nearly 80 units can now move 6 tiles in enemy territory, attacking on the final move. That means that, with a little patience and good scouting the player can call the battle and always be on the attack, which is the only side that can effectively use magic in a battle. The attacker can move their stack up, cripple the AI stack with magic, and the run the attacks. Each attacking spellcaster can then damage every unit in the opposing stack. What I suggest is that:

  • Spellcasters that can only cast level 1 spells can only effect 6 units per spell cast.
  • Spellcasters that can cast level 2 spells can only effect 12 units per spell cast.
  • Spellcasters that can cast level 3 spells can effect up to 18 units per spell cast.

That would limit the advantage. (If 6-12-18 is too much, other numbers could be picked). I've noticed that when archery units were given ranged attack, it cost them a movement point to use it. I think spellcasting should also cost a movement point. So once the unit has moved and has no more movement, no spellcasting. I was able to use the archmage Summon Rift Gate to move a stack right next to a city, have a unit cast Haste, and then my whole stack can attack that turn. The Kurioates were probably less than a dozen turns from an Altar win, and I was stuck on another continent over a very wide ocean without a lot of ships. And well behind them on the power graph. Yet I punched out all 5 of their cities in 3 turns. And when their stack of about 70 arrived, I punched that out too. I didn't lose anything. So I then went hunting Bassium's stack, and there was some 80 units, and I lost almost nothing punching that out.

So a certain loss turned into a win just because the magic that I could use effectively and they could not was just too powerful.

As you can see, the power loss to me was nothing in destroying their power.

Spoiler :
miniciv4screenshot0069.jpg


Now this, having so many units defect was too much, and thanks for dialing that back. But this is just weird in having discipline units of the good religions go off barbarian.

Spoiler :
miniciv4screenshot0071.jpg


One last point for tonight. Are there other requirement for Free Odio that are not in the Pedia?

Spoiler :
miniciv4screenshot0076.jpg


It only says a tech requirement and level 11. Yet here I had a level 18 and still couldn't do it. And one other thing about that picture. This may only really apply to the Amurites after Govannon starts giving away all those spellcasting abilities. However, as you can see, the information about the unit gets lost behind all of that. I can't see how much damage the unit has, or anything. Is it possible to expand that box to show all the info without obscuring any of it?

Thanks for everything. Despite my nitpicking, I'm enjoying the mod-mod. :)


I really don't know much about how the AI works, and haven't really done anything to change it other than make the game recognize that some spells have different prerequisites in my modmod than in base FfH2. The AI is however much better with magic than it is in base ffH2, because my modmod is based on Tholal's More Naval AI modmod. Tholal probably understands more about the AI than anyone working on FfH2 modmods. He has improved things considerably, and is still working to try to make things better. All AI issues with my modmod should really be referred to him.


The magic nerfs you suggest would also require SDK changes (or else really complicated and inefficient python). Since I just use Tholal's DLL, they would have to be taken up with him too.




I'm not really sure why a Confessor would turn barbarian. (A Vicar under Calabim control would; sun-worshipers are as bad as dragon-worshipers as far as the Vampires are concerned.)

I just realized that it is possible that the unit might have been converted to the Cult of the Dragon, and then turned barbarian due to the Rebellious promotion. When units of the Cult of the Dragon are converted by a nearby dragon, then the python code changes their religion back to the Cult of the Dragon after it changes players. Technically having a unit change players involves creating a new unit, which would go back to its default religion. The Rebellious promotion is granted through python but works through the XML/DLL. It might not does not have a check that changes the religion to that of the old unit rather than the default.

I'm not really sure what I can do about that. Perhaps I need to ask Tholal to make a change.

(Of course, sometimes a unit would turn barbarian for other reasons, like being captured by Stephanos.)
 
perhaps a separate AI type needs to be added specifically for Adepts and Mages.

(ArchMages are strong enough, imho, to be used as reserve ... but not mages/adepts).

Essentially, this AI type should focus solely on spells, with some way to say 'Mages are only as strong as their spells'

-> Hopefully this would be possible?
 
In my game now...AI attacks with mages, heroes and catapults...easy cannon fodder for "active defence".Some recon line unists and priest are thrown in...but its like...10:1:1= mages: priests: recon units. At defence AI uses mages...early-mid game AI at defence had archers but new citieas are already garrnisoned with mages...regardless of civilization type...

AI uses mounted units for looting and preying the weakest...correct, but are replaced at Sod later with mages...at the same time...overlord priests are not using tsunami....
 
In my game now...AI attacks with mages, heroes and catapults...easy cannon fodder for "active defence".Some recon line unists and priest are thrown in...but its like...10:1:1= mages: priests: recon units. At defence AI uses mages...early-mid game AI at defence had archers but new citieas are already garrnisoned with mages...regardless of civilization type...

Provide me with a save game please.
 
hmm.

Do you think power ratings are affecting the AI?

Adepts should have half the power rating of warriors, and mages should have half the power rating of axes. Its the spell spheres that should up their power rating to equal or above.
 
civ4screenshot0000vj.jpg


I took random save and picture...

It's medieval start...I want to see wheter AI will use cannons or not: At early stages AI used catapults, later abandoned... notice at WB: almost all all defensive units are starting bonuses...

It is 2.42 beta...

sabathiel is crusading....where are his crusading units for instance...
 

Attachments

I took random save and picture...

It's medieval start..

Main issue seems to be the AI - No Minimum Levels option. It's letting the AI build mages directly which is throwing everything off. I suspect the medieval start is confusing the AI as well.

Edit: Turns out the culprit is the way that AIweights are calculated in AI_unitValue(). I'll fix this for 2.42
 
Would it be possible to stop the AI from suiciding stacks on Acheron? I think Acheron is an interesting feature, but it also makes the game significantly easier, as the AIs seem to give capturing the city high value.

For example in one game the Luchuirp attacked Acheron's city with a 15 unit stack of catapults, golems and Barnaxxus. The end result was most of the units dying without taking the city. At the time that stack was probably the most powerful military force in the game.

This was happening with the 2.3 version of the mod. I've since then upgraded to 2.41, and I play with Acheron off, so can't say if it would still happen.

EDIT: I've also noticed that sometimes one of the AIs never settles a city. I was using the ErebusContinent map script with a huge map and one extra civilization over the default. The Bannor never settled anywhere, and traveled all over the world with their settler and warriors. This has happened in both 2.3 and 2.41.
 
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