MOD: Patch Suggestion - C3C version

[Commander Bello]

I see three logical breaks in upgrade chains:
Trebuchets should not upgrade to cannons
Cavalry style units should not upgrade to tanks or other motorized units.
Sail ships should not upgrade to steam or combustion powered vessels.

As an alternative, costs for those upgrades should be dramatically increased.

 

[morikaweb]

Actually if I remember my American history correctly were Calvary not upgraded to mechanized Calvary (tanks) in the real world? I believe they were sent to fort nox and after being trained in the use/maintenance of the tank and in tank warfare tactics, exchanged their horses for a tank. The same thing goes for all the other stuff you mentioned.

What you have to remember is that the unit is not made up entirely of the weapon, but that there are infact people wielding the weapon. And those people can be trained to use different weapons, especially when the new ones are not really all that different from the original ones. (Think about it, a steam powered ship is still a ship, a cannon is still a long range bombardment weapon, ect).

 

[Commander Bello]

Originally posted by morikaweb
Actually if I remember my American history correctly were Calvary not upgraded to mechanized Calvary (tanks) in the real world? I believe they were sent to fort nox and after being trained in the use/maintenance of the tank and in tank warfare tactics, exchanged their horses for a tank. The same thing goes for all the other stuff you mentioned.

What you have to remember is that the unit is not made up entirely of the weapon, but that there are infact people wielding the weapon. And those people can be trained to use different weapons, especially when the new ones are not really all that different from the original ones. (Think about it, a steam powered ship is still a ship, a cannon is still a long range bombardment weapon, ect).

And exactly that is the reason why I think, some upgrades should just not happen or should be very cost intensive.
A good sailor not automatically is a good steamboat captain. A good rider is not automatically a good tank commander or very skilled with the cannon. A good trebuchet constructor might miss the special mathematics he would need for the ballistics of the artillery.
In all these cases the people would have to be completely retrained, would almost have to forget everything the knew and would have had to learn completely new characteristics of the new weapon system.
Of course, all of that could be done and has been done... but it took time and money to do so.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Originally posted by Commander Bello
I see three logical breaks in upgrade chains:
Trebuchets should not upgrade to cannons

Which makes them more useless.
Not gonna happen.
Still considering that in my MOD Cannons cost 60, upgrade is "just" 90gp.

Originally posted by Commander Bello
Cavalry style units should not upgrade to tanks or other motorized units.

Ok, espeicaly considering that prices are almost the same and increase, which tripled increase in power.

Originally posted by Commander Bello
Sail ships should not upgrade to steam or combustion powered vessels.

I was for this at first, but consdering that new planned Dromon upgrade to Frigate, some of my old solutions won't work.

So there will be upgrades to Destroyer.

But look at the cost: 180gp per unit!

 

[player1 fanatic]

Version 2.11 is out!


New in v2.11:


Cavalry gets cost increased from 80 to 90 shields, since they are much better then Knights (50% better attack and defense). Not something just worth 10 shields difference (or 30gp upgrade).

Frigate, Man-O-War and Privateer now upgrade to Destroyer. While I liked the option of making them "obsolete", it didn't worked well with changes I made to Dromon upgrade path. Also, this should not be a problem from realism standpoint, considering that Galleons always upgraded to Transports and that now upgrade costs are 180gp per unit.

Lethal land bombardment is removed from Bombers, since that made them too powerful. Especially considering that AI controlled civilizations rarely built anti-air defenses.

Interception of stealth aircrafts is increased from 5% to 15% to compensate for higher defense rating of these units in Conquests. While in original Civ3, those units had defense of 0, so 5% chance of interception meant 5% of being shot down. Now with defense ratings of 5 and 6, they are much more durable. Still, even with this change chance to shot down a stealth plane is more then 3 times lower then shooting down a normal aircraft.

Cruise Missiles get their cost decreased from 60 to 40 shields, since introduction of lethal bombardment in Conquests made them less useful then before. And not to mention that for price of 2 Cruise Missiles you could buy one Radar Artillery, which can be used as many times as you like.


Chasqui Scout gets cost decreased from 20 to 15 shields. With old 20 shields cost, it was too expensive for a Scout and too expensive for a military unit. Because of this change, I returned to Chasqui Scout original movement bonuses (no penalties on hills, mountains and volcanoes).

Jaguar Warrior, in order to not get outshined by Chasqui Scout, gets an extra hit point in its heath bar. This should make them a little bit more powerful, but not as powerful as when they had 10 shields cost before Conquests.

Medieval Infantry is removed from Celtic build queue. This was done so that Celts could build Gallic Swordsmen for a longer period of time. And Gallic Swordsmen is better then Medieval Infantry.

Rider gets cost increased from 70 to 80 shields, since extra movement point is very powerful bonus for Knight type unit.

Ansar Warrior cost increased from 60 to 70 shields, for similar reasons as Rider.

Siphai cost increased from 100 to 105 shields, to compensate for higher cost of Cavalry.

Musketeers changed to have better focus on offense. They get both attack and defense of 4. Also they get cost reduced to 50 shields like Musketmen. With this, they are closer to their original version before Conquests, just a little bit more powerful (but still balanced). Also, since they got increased attack they get AI offense flag restored.

Dromon cost is increased from 30 to 40 shields, since they are very powerful naval unit for that time. With their attack and bombard rating they could even destroy Caravels and Galleons without problem. Plus you could use them for bombard of land units.

Dromon now upgrades to Frigate, since it's too useful to become obsolete with Caravel.
But, since this breaks upgrade chain of transport based vessels, to compensate I allowed Byzantines to build Galley if they like. That way even Byzantine Curraghs upgrade to Galleys and then to Caravels, while Dromons upgrade to Frigate. Also, this way if you really want to get transport quickly you can build cheaper Galley instead of Dromon.

 

[Commander Bello]

Player1fanatic,

those changes look good so far. Still, I think differently about the upgrade of the naval units, but well, it's your mod, isn't it?

Have you ever thought about making the Dromon the Barbarian sea unit? I've tested it in one or two games and must say, woooow... makes early sea exploration a real adventure! (in combination with eliminating the defense bonus for water tiles)

 

[player1 fanatic]

Maybe that's a little bit too powerful.

Like swaping Warriors with Swordsmen.

 

[Commander Bello]

From my experiences, I don't think it would be too powerful.

It makes early seafaring very dangerous, that's right. But that way, the early exploration of the world (think about the effect of the Great Library!) is limited for all civs.
So, it forces you to raid the coastal Barbarian villages as soon as you spot them.
I like it.

 

[Dogmeat]

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Dromon now upgrades to Frigate, since it's too useful to become obsolete with Caravel.
But, since this breaks upgrade chain of transport based vessels, to compensate I allowed Byzantines to build Galley if they like. That way even Byzantine Curraghs upgrade to Galleys and then to Caravels, while Dromons upgrade to Frigate. Also, this way if you really want to get transport quickly you can build cheaper Galley instead of Dromon.

How about removing upgrade paths from Dromon?
Will this make them too powerful?
I think you should be able to build them even after Magnetism because they are quite effective as 'Frigate-hunters' with their low cost.

...Also, don't increase their cost. This will make the Byzantines less effective at colonizing other islands on, say, and archipelago map. That is wrong. And naval units are supposed to be dominating because they make less impact on the game than land units.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Musketeers changed to have better focus on offense. They get both attack and defense of 4. Also they get cost reduced to 50 shields like Musketmen. With this, they are closer to their original version before Conquests, just a little bit more powerful (but still balanced). Also, since they got increased attack they get AI offense flag restored.

Yay! I see you walk the bright path player1 fanatic!
However, if you've ditched the defensive bombard, please put it back. They are too weak otherwise.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Frigate, Man-O-War and Privateer now upgrade to Destroyer. While I liked the option of making them "obsolete", it didn't worked well with changes I made to Dromon upgrade path. Also, this should not be a problem from realism standpoint, considering that Galleons always upgraded to Transports and that now upgrade costs are 180gp per unit.

Hmm, ok. But why the Privateer?
It's useful for hunting down transports.. Or Nuclear Subs, stalking your territory.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Originally posted by Dogmeat
How about removing upgrade paths from Dromon?
Will this make them too powerful?
I think you should be able to build them even after Magnetism because they are quite effective as 'Frigate-hunters' with their low cost.

I think that would be too much.
And from realism standpoint, why would anybody build Dromon with Frigates around.

Originally posted by Dogmeat
...Also, don't increase their cost. This will make the Byzantines less effective at colonizing other islands on, say, and archipelago map. That is wrong. And naval units are supposed to be dominating because they make less impact on the game than land units.

Did I mentioned that Byzantines can build Galleys if they like?
Good for quick colonization.

Originally posted by Dogmeat
Yay! I see you walk the bright path player1 fanatic!
However, if you've ditched the defensive bombard, please put it back. They are too weak otherwise.

It's still there.

Originally posted by Dogmeat
Hmm, ok. But why the Privateer?
It's useful for hunting down transports.. Or Nuclear Subs, stalking your territory.

True, they could have some uses.
But, to me it just didn't felt right to have those ships in build queue in modern era.

And hunting down Subs with Privateers just sound weird.

 

[Dogmeat]

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
I think that would be too much.
And from realism standpoint, why would anybody build Dromon with Frigates around.

Because they have greek fire! Seriously, will this make the player avoid magnetism for as long as possible, trying to build an armada of Dromons in the meantime so they can endure the onslaught of Frigates? If so, then this probably needs some changing.

See, I had this idea the other day about how to rework naval combat. Now Frigates, seeing as they have trouble taking down Galleons and even Caravels I would opt to make them 3.3.5 and leave the other middle ages and ancient age ships unmodified. What about Man-O-War then? well it would be 5.3.5. So with these changes, the Dromon-Frigate upgrade is completely appropriate.
However, since frigates now are more powerful, you have to improve Ironclads to say, 6.7.3

But then, you'd have to improve the other industrial and modern ships so that the Ironclads can't go about freely against steelships.. But It's too troublesome to write down recommended changes until I know you've adopted my idea or not (right about now, it feels like I have to go make a mod myself but that too is too troublesome ).

Oh and another good thing with these changes is that ships become slightly more resistant to artillery and bombers due to increased defense.. That's a good thing right?

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Did I mentioned that Byzantines can build Galleys if they like?
Good for quick colonization.

Ohh, maybe you did.. Very well then. I still don't think they should cost 40 shields, they are naval units. They can't capture cities. +1 offense on a naval unit won't ever impact the game as much as say, Immortals.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
And hunting down Subs with Privateers just sound weird.

Peacetime subhunting of course.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Originally posted by Dogmeat
Because they have greek fire! Seriously, will this make the player avoid magnetism for as long as possible, trying to build an armada of Dromons in the meantime so they can endure the onslaught of Frigates? If so, then this probably needs some changing.

See, I had this idea the other day about how to rework naval combat. Now Frigates, seeing as they have trouble taking down Galleons and even Caravels I would opt to make them 3.3.5 and leave the other middle ages and ancient age ships unmodified. What about Man-O-War then? well it would be 5.3.5. So with these changes, the Dromon-Frigate upgrade is completely appropriate.
However, since frigates now are more powerful, you have to improve Ironclads to say, 6.7.3

But then, you'd have to improve the other industrial and modern ships so that the Ironclads can't go about freely against steelships.. But It's too troublesome to write down recommended changes until I know you've adopted my idea or not (right about now, it feels like I have to go make a mod myself but that too is too troublesome ).

Oh and another good thing with these changes is that ships become slightly more resistant to artillery and bombers due to increased defense.. That's a good thing right?

You see?
Just to make one little change you need to maka a ton of other changes.

I really don't want that.

Originally posted by Dogmeat Ohh, maybe you did.. Very well then. I still don't think they should cost 40 shields, they are naval units. They can't capture cities. +1 offense on a naval unit won't ever impact the game as much as say, Immortals. [/B]

That's not really +1 to attack.
That's +100% attack and 66% of Frigate bombard in ancient age.

Compared to +33% attack for Immortals (and they had cost of 35 shields here).

 

[Dogmeat]

Ahh, I see, so UU's aren't meant to make a big difference in your MOD.. Seriously, there are far better units to nerf than Dromons. I played as the Byzantines once on a continents map and I think I built something like 3-4 Dromons, sinking about 1 Frigate with those and maybe a Galley or two..

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
You see?
Just to make one little change you need to maka a ton of other changes.

Ok, I take that as an insult..

 

[player1 fanatic]

Actually, Dromons do make a big difference even in my mod, with price of 40 shields.

Much greater then one Man-O-War, for example.

And will make even greater difference considering that they could be built after the Astronomy.

I played as the Byzantines once on a continents map and I think I built something like 3-4 Dromons, sinking about 1 Frigate with those and maybe a Galley or two..

Try using them for bombard of land units in coastal area, and you'll know why are they so powerful.

 

[Sword Dancer]

Y'know what still frosts my delicate parts of anatomy? The fact that if you build an Army early, and populate it with the best troops that money can buy, there's no way that the army can be unloaded or the individual units within upgraded.

Player 1, Any chance of addressing this? After all, an Army Group really represents leadership and a logistics network that enables units to fight together.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Unfortunately, that's something that can't be changed by modding.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I think it is good as it is, armies would get two much power, if you can unload units and upgrade them.It would be a no-brainer to use armies everywhere and always take the most advanced units.Another problem would be the AI, which surely would have problems to use the upgrade possibilty (they even have problems to use armies correct as they are).

 

[Sword Dancer]

What about giving each race a second civ-specific unit, or adding abilities to the existing unique units? An example would be giving the Greeks Triremes, the Roman Legion the ability to construct roads and fortifications, etc...

 

[player1 fanatic]

Version 2.2 is out!

Only new thing here is that it's 1.22 patch compatible.
And that means implementing all 1.22 tweaks.

 

[Gogf]

I'm going to download the 1.22 version, but make a few changes (which include turning lethal bombard back on).