[MOD] The Western World

Well, if you want a battleship (or indeed any unit) that's really special, rare and powerful then you could create an improvement that is only unlocked by an advanced naval type tech (and also needs a certain resource if you want to make it more difficult and special) and have this improvement auto-produce the battleships, which are unbuildable otherwise.

If you're concerned about having too many battleships then you can set the auto-production to something quite infrequent, like every 15 or 18 turns, or set it as a small wonder, meaning only one per civ. Naturally, this building would have the 'coastal installation' flag checked, making those battleships even more rare. And, if you want to go a step further, you could have the small wonder with the 'reduces corruption' flag checked (in the wonders column) so that only large civs with a certain number of cities could build it.
 
Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. It also lets me not worry so much about making sure Battleships are balanced when fighting other ships, I can make them incredibly powerful and so hard to sink and it'd be justified due to their rarity (of course I'd make them really vulnerable to aircraft, as that's what made them obsolete by the end of WW2)

I will try all of your suggestions and see how it turns out, although the Triremes the game has now aren't exactly incredibly powerful ships (is there a Quinquereme graphic somewhere?) so I won't get to experiment with this for a while. They still have hefty requirements though, so Biremes are usually a better option. My Ancient World tests haven't shown that the AI is very keen on building Biremes or Triremes (in fact they never research the tech for Triremes, so I merged them with the Bireme tech) but I think that's just because I haven't adjusted their prices yet, was busy making sure Spain and Persia had enough food to expand and that isolated civs wouldn't lag too far behind.

I have to make some tweaks to the map and then I'll mod the costs for ships and see how the AI reacts to them this time. If there is a Quinquereme graphic, though, could someone please link it to me? They were far more significant and far more powerful than Triremes and I wanted for them to be the Ancient Era battleships, but I couldn't find any graphics for them. Maybe I'm just a bad looker...
 
Is there a faster way to test medieval stuff without having to play through the entire Ancient era(without making each civ start in the medieval age)? It's making things a little tedious... I know in debug mode you can research technologies and such but can you switch through different eras?
 
So I've a couple of ideas here:

Default citizens (in vanilla, the 'laborer' citizen type) will now give +1 gpt. Tax collectors are no longer a specialist.

So every citizen you have will give you some money. This helps smaller, more densely populated countries, support larger armies than would otherwise be possible with less cities. It also, in my opinion, is more realistic. It does increase the tech rate somewhat, but since the early governments suck anyway, most of it will just be surplus money generated - also a bonus to mercenary-reliant states like Carthage.

Along with that I hope to make all the specialists a little more interesting and add a couple of new ones. A 'bureaucrat' specialist available after one researches Bureaucracy (the tech that also gives the earliest Republic government) could reduce corruption, for example, which could help the worse-off governments get more expansive. They could also help with construction.

Now I just need to find that thing that lets specialist icons show up in the science advisor...

On another note, workers also don't cost maintenance anymore. This means that in the military advisor, if you can support 28 free units, and 13 of them are warriors, and 15 are workers, you're only supporting 13 warriors out of your 28 free, not all 28 units.

This helps worker-crazy spammers like me maintain a respectable army. The tax thing above also helps.

This also, as you can imagine, helps the AI quite a bit.
 
Then due to neutrality in World War I, the Dutch army becomes quite incompetent and behind the other civilized nations of the world, and mobilized too late in World War II to put up a good fight.

While the Dutch Army was not able to put up that great a fight, the Dutch Navy in WW2 was on par technologically with the rest of Europe. They were working on the snorkel prior to WW2, and had on the destroyer Isaac Sweers a prototype AA fire control system for the 40mm Bofors gun that the British though highly enough to adopt post-war. Their ships ad submarines were good. In aircraft, they were also pretty good.

Minefields ( on both land and sea. They operate a little like the mines in Escape from Zombie Island. Very useful for killing submarines, although my research revealed that in real life only 3 submarines were ever sunk due to sea mines. They were still a significant enough part of WW1 to be implemented, I feel. )

I would be interested in where you got your information on mines and submarines. The US alone lost probably 5 subs to minefields in the Pacific in WW2, while the British lost several to Italian minefields in the Med during the war. In World War One, mines were quite deadly against subs as well, while the Germans had several of the minelaying subs blown up by their own mines while trying to lay minefields.

As for the AI using curraghs for settlers if they can carry two units, I can vouch for that definitely being the case. I play exclusively on archipelago and continent maps with only one or two civilizations per land mass, and the AI will be very busy sending out settler ships. My basis for curraghs having a capacity of two units is based on the galley having a capacity of two. Curraghs, being primarily sailing ships verses rowed had more cargo capacity than a galley, and could carry about 20 to 30 passengers, on par with a galley.

With respect to ships, you might want to take a look at my naval mod:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=322522

I have been working for a while on it, and while battleships could probably be boosted a bit more, they are pretty deadly as is.

Also, with respect to WW2 anti-aircraft fire from ships, you might want think about having some distinction between countries. By 1944, the US Navy was shooting down 50% of all attacking Japanese aircraft with anti-aircraft fire, and for the battleships, it was closer to 90% of attacking planes. The Fletcher-class destroyer would have been rated as an Anti-Aircraft Cruiser is just about every other navy of the time, and that was before the introduction of the proximity fuse for the 5"38. There was one case off of Okinawa were a destroyer on radar picket shot down 22 out of 28 attacking Kamikazes. At the Battle of Santa Cruz in October of 1942, the US Battleship South Dakota was credited with shooting down 26 attacking Japanese planes while suffering exactly 1 (ONE) bomb hit on B 16-inch turret.

Note: This data is based on extensive research into WW2 anti-aircraft engagement reports which I did for a couple of war game companies in the mid 1990s. I have the analysis in PDF format if anyone is interested. It also includes bombing accuracy verses ships for the Pacific war. Both the Japanese and US naval pilots were more accurate than the Stuka when it came to hitting ships in 1942. Dive bombers and torpedo planes were far better in WW2 at killing ships than horizontal bombers. Do some reading on the Guadalcanal campaign, the convoys to Malta, and the Battle of the Bismarck Sea in March of 1943 for more background. The Bismarck Sea action featured the first major use of skip-bombing by the US.

Be careful making WW2-era bombers too powerful at killing units. To achieve significant success against ground units, especially ones dug-in, required a very large number of bombers attacking a fairly small target area in a very short period of time. Read up on the carpet-bombing for the Normandy break-out to get some idea of what I mean. You can download the official US Army history series from the Center for Military History website.
 
This data is based on extensive research into WW2 anti-aircraft engagement reports which I did for a couple of war game companies in the mid 1990s. I have the analysis in PDF format if anyone is interested.


timerover51, I´m interested in that analysis - and I think a lot of other modders, too. So please. post that analysis at CFC. :)
 
I didn't know anything about the Dutch navy and airforce of that time. Thanks for sharing. (I would've found it, probably, at some point on my own, but my library only has so much books on the subject, and its hard to find good internet sources sometimes)
Anyhow,
The mines thing is from 'History of World War One: Volume 3' by Marshall Cavendish, c 2002. It was acquired from my library, and while it mainly talks about the home fronts, it also talked about the naval and air wars and military technology. The first and second volumes cover the course of the war and some other things that I forget at the moment.

I meant to say that only 3 submarines were sunk by mines ever during World War 1, not all of ever. Sorry about that. My index card (makes info organization easier :p) for that page of the book says "Mines didn't kill a lot of subs because they were reliant on the submarine captain not being able to navigate properly. Despite of this so many mines were produced, especially by the United Kingdom, that I should try to include them in the mod."

The book explicitly states that only 3 submarine fatalities during the war were caused due to mines, but you could prove it wrong. :D

As for WW2 bombers, I was going to have different types of bombers suited to different things - as well as trying to make a moving, offensive army more susceptible and vulnerable to bombers than dug-in positions. However I always felt that aircraft were next to useless in Civ, and having bombers be really effective is a good way to promote their building and fighters being constructed.

You do make some interesting points about WW2 anti-aircraft aboard ships. Both out of curiousity and interest, I would certainly like the PDF. I've definitely heard about the course of those campaigns and actions, but my "specialty" area in history is not the 20th century and especially not WW2.
 
The mines thing is from 'History of World War One: Volume 3' by Marshall Cavendish, c 2002. It was acquired from my library, and while it mainly talks about the home fronts, it also talked about the naval and air wars and military technology. The first and second volumes cover the course of the war and some other things that I forget at the moment.

I meant to say that only 3 submarines were sunk by mines ever during World War 1, not all of ever. Sorry about that. My index card (makes info organization easier :p) for that page of the book says "Mines didn't kill a lot of subs because they were reliant on the submarine captain not being able to navigate properly. Despite of this so many mines were produced, especially by the United Kingdom, that I should try to include them in the mod."

The book explicitly states that only 3 submarine fatalities during the war were caused due to mines, but you could prove it wrong. :D

I will dig out my copy of Conway's All the World's Warships for WW1, but there were a lot more than 3 submarines sunk by mines, and I am very surprised that an author for Marshall Cavendish would not mention the Dover Patrol and Mine Barrage.

As for WW2 bombers, I was going to have different types of bombers suited to different things - as well as trying to make a moving, offensive army more susceptible and vulnerable to bombers than dug-in positions. However I always felt that aircraft were next to useless in Civ, and having bombers be really effective is a good way to promote their building and fighters being constructed.

Take a look at my naval mod, as I have considerably increased the effectiveness of bombers, along with a lot of the modern land units as well as ships. Weapon effects, terminal ballistics, and bombing accuracy are one of my areas of interest. I have quite a lot of data from WW2 tests and reports to draw on.

You do make some interesting points about WW2 anti-aircraft aboard ships. Both out of curiousity and interest, I would certainly like the PDF. I've definitely heard about the course of those campaigns and actions, but my "specialty" area in history is not the 20th century and especially not WW2.

I am a military and naval historian, along with doing some government consulting work. For more info about me, go to YouTube, type in PT-109 JFK and then look for PT-109-JFK, which is a summary of the National Geographic Society TV special about the Search for PT-109. I show up at about 3:25 or so in the dark blue shirt and baseball hat, when I identify the wreck. (Blatant self promotion on my part, but it was a fantastic trip).

I have a library of around 3,000 books, most of which deal with military history and technology. It starts with the Sumerians and goes through the modern day.
 
timerover51, I´m interested in that analysis - and I think a lot of other modders, too. So please. post that analysis at CFC. :)

Where would be the best place to post it, as it is not exactly a mod or map? Also, I am primarily focused on the Pacific, so I do not get into the German or British AA that much. The British, by the end of the war, was getting close to the US, while the Germans pretty much stunk. The Italians were not too bad, a bit better than the Germans when it comes to ship anti-aircraft fire. Also, the advent of aerial rockets and para-demo and para-frag bombs, along with napalm, considerably increased the effectiveness of ground attack aircraft by the end of the war. I am not sure how you reflect that in a game, except by adding additional aircraft with greater bombardment ability.

One of the big headaches with any kind of computer combat system is reflecting the greater vulnerability of armored and mechanized units to air attack verses leg infantry units, and the effects of interdiction of supply routes. It appears that all of the US pre-invasion bombing of Iwo Jima did not kill a single Japanese soldier or sailer. Dug-in infantry is really a tough target. Also, computers give what I call "cookie-cutter" or "all or nothing" results, which while it makes the Air Force happy, does not reflect reality at all.
 
I will dig out my copy of Conway's All the World's Warships for WW1, but there were a lot more than 3 submarines sunk by mines, and I am very surprised that an author for Marshall Cavendish would not mention the Dover Patrol and Mine Barrage.
I think I do remember something about a Dover Patrol, but that could be mixing things up. I had to return the book to the library quite some time ago (which is why I kept index cards of important information, including the mines.) along with a lengthy documentation of the Punic Wars, and a brief one to do with WW2 in Europe.

Take a look at my naval mod, as I have considerably increased the effectiveness of bombers, along with a lot of the modern land units as well as ships. Weapon effects, terminal ballistics, and bombing accuracy are one of my areas of interest. I have quite a lot of data from WW2 tests and reports to draw on.
I will take a look, it certainly sounds like it would be helpful to me.

I am a military and naval historian, along with doing some government consulting work. For more info about me, go to YouTube, type in PT-109 JFK and then look for PT-109-JFK, which is a summary of the National Geographic Society TV special about the Search for PT-109. I show up at about 3:25 or so in the dark blue shirt and baseball hat, when I identify the wreck. (Blatant self promotion on my part, but it was a fantastic trip).

I have a library of around 3,000 books, most of which deal with military history and technology. It starts with the Sumerians and goes through the modern day.

I'm just an aspiring history teacher. Nice to meet you. :p Modern military and naval history isn't my specialty - I much prefer the age of discovery/age of sail, and I know a lot more about ships in that era. I in general have more interest and knowledge in the Age of Discovery, colonialism etc. to the Victorian era, much more so than the 20th century (though don't get me wrong, I have a much better idea of the history of the last century than most people do >.>)

It's partly why I started this mod, so I would look into researching things that I normally wouldn't have. It's been quite a fascinating trip.
 
Austria:
Height: Habsburg Empire
Location: Central Europe
Capital: Wien
Industrious and Commerical
Austrian units are heavily multicultural, with German, Hungarians, and Poles being the most notable. This allows them to branch into different fighting styles and tactics easily. The army doesn't excel in anything, but does well overall.

sorry for being late to the party. sounds interesting. but are you sure about the Austrian/Habsburg traits? knowing a bit about their history, i would rather esteem them REL+EXP.
t_x
 
I felt like those traits might suit Habsburg Spain better. Also I felt that a strong economic power like Austria should get economic traits, and have traits with better synergy then Rel/Exp.
 
everything is fine with me. just saying, that neither Spain nor Austria-Hungary had a particularly strong economy for most of history. Spain simply exploitet their colonies, while their home economy collapsed (due to inflation and because everyone who could sought his chances overseas).
and the economicly strong lands of the (Austrian) Habsburg empire were Bohemia in the earlier empire and Northern Italy, Slesia and Burgundy/Netherlands later.
btw, the Habsburgs did not rule Spain for all too long. for your game it may be better to identify them with their Austrian branch, where they ruled for centuries.
t_x
 
Well the Habsburg dynasty in Spain did last quite a while. I already was identifying them with Habsburg Austria, but I was identifying Spain with its Habsburg rulers (which up until Felipe III, was the height of its empire).

I'm aware that Spain got rich, but didn't stay rich for very long. They were still a very important economic power long after they lost military dominance, up until 1821 when the last of their colonies earned independence.

Austria, though, was also certainly well off, at least until everyone else starts industrializing. The main problem in the empire wasn't the economy, it was the multicultural (And soon dual monarchy) empire. This didn't help them much in the age of nationalism.

I do agree that Austria's traits could be better, though. They're the same as France. But Rel/Exp ... I can see why you might suggest those traits, but they just don't seem to fit the overall picture for me.
 
I always have Austria as Scientific and Militaristic.

They were superior in the arts and had Freud and always at war.
 
Scientific definitely works, but militaristic? Austria was basically incompetent for much of its history, its a wonder the empire managed to keep together. Sure, they had a few good generals and a few good moments, but that hardly categorizes them as militaristic.
 
Austria was incompetent for much of its history? :dubious: They doubled their territory between 1600 and 1800, beating the Turks up quite a lot. Besides their culture had some militaristic elements, such as the establishment of the Military Frontier. Ever been to Vienna? Half of the streets are named after different generals.

I guess there are other traits that suit Austria as well as Mil (perhaps Rel or Agri), but it's a better fit than for example Industrious, which doesn't make much sense (the only part of Austria that fits that description was Prague really, the rest was underdeveloped for all of the empires existance).
 
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