[mod] TOTAL REALISM 2.0

[Ankenaton]

well realism team wre busy doing ther own things. houman went to a wedding. so until they return to the forums, everyone enjoys discussing different things that they think could be done to make the mod even more "realistic". There were many pages( i think like 2) that addressed different bugs with the game.

I am not a programmer , i can only offer moral support and suggestions and dont have time to play test the game, to pinpoint different bugs currently.

all i can say is good luck to the realism team in creating one of the best "composite" mods out htere if not the best....

How does one start a seperate project in the project and mod development thing. Currently ther is kael's mod, TAM, and rhye's civilzation. What if Realism mod was there?

One of the criteria is popularity; and another is that the Mod team has to get in touch with board administrators to carry it through.

 

[Hian the Frog]

Houman, all,

I have read twice your posts about religions. I can't say it's a bad system but there are big problems:

1) As Warkirby wrote (if i well remember ) when Buddism spread, it quickly cover most of the world. Alliances of civs that follow this faith attack and destroy or convert others civs that follow other faiths. It happened to Warkirby as it happened to me...

2) Taoism is a local religion. China, only China.

3) Explain to me how Judaism spread in Europe, Russia or USA if it's only a local religion. Something had to be done to allow this religion to spread a little.
Why not a system to allow Judaism to spread if the Holy Shrine is conquered (as it was in 79 AC when Jerusalem was conquered by Roman Legions and Jews fled in many cities, spreading their faith all around the Mediterannean Sea) ?

4) Hinduism is a local religion. But what a local religion, around one Billion people. You says that it's because of his caste system.... Even it don't have this name (caste system), this civic was also used in most of the Far east countries (Korea, China, Japan) and they are not Hinduist. It was nearly impossible in these countries for a peasant or worker to become a great or rich man (Merchant, Noble,....)
Why not allowing the spreading of Hinduism in countries using this civic ?

5) Islam and Christianism are the two religions that are far beyond the Billion... They also spreaded in large parts of the world.
When founded, i suggest to give more than one missionary (as somebody wrote, sorry forget your name Man ).

6) Islam and Christianism are the main religions but they are also the most schismatic... Shiite, Orthodox church, Protestant church,...and so on. That's why i feel strange to allow them to be world religion. Shiite and Sunnite hate each other (todays Irak is good exemple) as Orthodox and Roman Catholicism (Moscow Great Patriarch still refuses a visit of the Pope)...

7) Is it possible to add new religions ? More than 7....


I conclude: this system seems good but still have many weakness. Something had to be done to allow local religions to survive and to spread a little. World religions quickly become very powerfull and create diplomatic and military problems. And i can really tell you that it's a big, very big bonus to be the owner of such a holy shrine. (i had test it as a Russian TR World map, Christian religion)
That's just my opinion. Guys, i wait for comments. Just to improve a good system to a very good one.

The Frog.

PS: for all those who love football/soccer, France vs Italy 3-1 . Now, everybody knows who are really the best....

 

[Ankenaton]

Also these MODS (Realism, Rhyes, TAM, etc.) are not just about the skill of the programmers. They often times require people who are versed in history; concept people (idea men); playtesters; and people who debate the relative merits of any inclusions into the mods. Oftentimes one person can cover many of these categories; at other times the talents are more spread out. I can remember the group we had doing the Civ3 versions of TAM, basically we had only one main programmer/creator (Thamis); a couple of secondary programmers (whose names escape right now, been a long time since I heard from them) and the rest were concept guys like me. We helped with the history, civlopedia, units, gameplay, scenario, concepts, etc. A couple of us along with Thamis tried to bring about a sub-Mod of TAM called TAM-Africa that is still unfinished and idle. You can still read the banner head that I wrote for the Civ3 TAM mod, if you go over to Wattorey's site on the Civ3 forum. It takes all types to create a mod.

 

[Houman]

@Guys thank you for your compliments about donation and stuff.

@Ankenaton,
Absolutely, this is the reason why Total Realism Mod was very soon (after the second revival) an open source project where everyone could bring in the ideas. As soon as it is discussed throughy and historically proofed. I have for example read through all these Redcoat posts to judge if we need a change or not.

@Hian, WarKirby,
I think we need still to work on the religion system.
I think one way to fix that is bringing in more local religions. Aztec religion is an interesting one. Therefore we had 4 local religions. Do not forget though that most civs before Christianity had Pagan gods and didn't belong to Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Hinduism and Taoism. (Romans, Goths, Gauls, Celtic, Japanese, Africans, etc etc. So our idea is not far from Realism. But we needed maybe more local religions in order to help the situation.

Bringing in spin offs (Orthodoc, Shia) with same buildings would be possible, but how does a Spinoff starts? But that would come later anyway.
Regarding how Judaism "spread" in Europe and USA, well you have answered already your own question. Because it doesn't really spread.
Regarding filling the gap, between modern and ancient religions, this is intentional that there is a gap. We have tried to set the time line about the time each religion came into the world.

Other info about religions, someone said Judaism isb't worth it because of unhealth with Pigs etc. Did you know that Judaist Temples are the only ones in game that increases the trade route? Did you know that Islamic Temples decrease the Trade routes? But they also get the Fanatic warrior which makes it up. Did you know that Zoroastrian religious buildings are more fragile when the enemy conquers the city and have a higher chance to vanish during the conquest? But Zoroastrian religion gives a bit more of culture?

There are still so many concepts. We need to work on a FAQ.

We need to work on this system, but that shall be for Warlords conversion...

Mexico,
Helicopters MI24 and KA50 are fixed. I have found the problem with Zoroastrian Shrine as well and will fix it tomorrow. What else is needed for the next patch? BTW I have a theory could the comeback of huntman unit be again the CTD problem we are experiencing?

Good night
Houman

 

[Spartan117]

@houman

hmmm.... regarding zorastian temple, and other temples... I thought ALL cultural buildings are destroyed when one captures a city?

One of the criteria is popularity; and another is that the Mod team has to get in touch with board administrators to carry it through.

10 pages since august 31. I think its pretty popluar. i think Realism Mod should attempt to open up its own section in the project & mod development. It makes it much easier i think all Houman, mexico, and nightravn, israfil, any others i missed. (havent seen them post in a while though) It makes it easier because they can look at different threads, relating to different things.(example a thread for bugs seen) Opening one of these make the topics organized. if i want to discuss redcoats this thread, another thread for religion, etc.. In conclusion, i think at the very least the idea should be considered.

 

[Hian the Frog]

@Guys thank you for your compliments about donation and stuff.

@Ankenaton,
Absolutely, this is the reason why Total Realism Mod was very soon (after the second revival) an open source project where everyone could bring in the ideas. As soon as it is discussed throughy and historically proofed. I have for example read through all these Redcoat posts to judge if we need a change or not.

And what is your feeling at that time ? Change or not ?

@Hian, WarKirby,
I think we need still to work on the religion system.
I think one way to fix that is bringing in more local religions. Aztec religion is an interesting one. Therefore we had 4 local religions. Do not forget though that most civs before Christianity had Pagan gods and didn't belong to Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Hinduism and Taoism. (Romans, Goths, Gauls, Celtic, Japanese, Africans, etc etc. So our idea is not far from Realism. But we needed maybe more local religions in order to help the situation.

Yes probably. An American one (cult of Aztec/Inca). An European one (Celtic Cult for exemple) A Nordic one (Scandinavian cult). A middle East one (Egypt cult for our friend Ankenaton ) A Far East one (i don't know the english name, cult of the elder if i traduct from French)

Bringing in spin offs (Orthodoc, Shia) with same buildings would be possible, but how does a Spinoff starts? But that would come later anyway.

A schism may start when a specific amount of money earned by the Holy Shrine is reached. An other idea: the more the city is far away for the holy shrine, the more chance a schism starts.

Regarding how Judaism "spread" in Europe and USA, well you have answered already your own question. Because it doesn't really spread.

Yes, i agree. Judaism doesn't really spread. Meanwhile, you can find Jews communities everywhere in Europe and in USA. In France for exemple, it's the third religion after Roman Catholicism of course, Islam but before the Protestant church which is the faith of Dutch, English, more than half of the Germans,.... Strange, is it ? That's why, i really think that even a small spreading could be allowed...But that's just my opinion

Regarding filling the gap, between modern and ancient religions, this is intentional that there is a gap. We have tried to set the time line about the time each religion came into the world.

Other info about religions, someone said Judaism isb't worth it because of unhealth with Pigs etc. Did you know that Judaist Temples are the only ones in game that increases the trade route? Did you know that Islamic Temples decrease the Trade routes? But they also get the Fanatic warrior which makes it up. Did you know that Zoroastrian religious buildings are more fragile when the enemy conquers the city and have a higher chance to vanish during the conquest? But Zoroastrian religion gives a bit more of culture?

There are still so many concepts. We need to work on a FAQ.

We need to work on this system, but that shall be for Warlords conversion...

Houman

Yes you are again right. Many concepts could be added to create real differences between religions. Being Jews in TR is better than in vanilla, even with health maluses....
I already had some idea for Warlords and Aztec religion... i will wait for warlords conversion to write them here.

To conclude, thanks for this explanations about religions. It's now even more clear for us that our religious choice in TR is very important...

The Frog.

 

[Los Tirano]

All these suggestions are great. I agree with most of what Hian said, especially the addition of a number of missionaries from the beginning for Islam and Christianity. With christianity, you could argue they should get twelve apostles . I dont think Islamic temples should have a penalty to trade, Muhammad was a merchant before he was a theocratic conqueror. But it is there to balance out the great and fanatical unit.

As for taoism, "Taoism currently has about 20 million followers, and is primarily centered in Taiwan. About 30,000 Taoists live in North America; 1,720 in Canada (1991 census). Taoism has had a significant impact on North American culture in areas of "acupuncture, herbalism, holistic medicine, meditation and martial arts..." http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/taoism.html

So Taoism originated in China, and has largely stayed there historically. But in the post WWII era it has moved beyond this country, is now more concentrated in a neighbouring country (Taiwan), but it has moved into the west, especially with the growth of new age spiritualities and new religious movements.

@Ankenaton, thanks for the compliment, i like this eye of horus as well. If only the egyptian pantheon had been more successful, and it wasnt just Isis that left egypt

 

[Eidalac]

Semi-random thought:

Most of the latter relgions don't spread because the PC and AI nations are pretty good at spreading whichever one they discover/convert too, so by the time the more 'modern' faiths show up, the world is dominated by the older and nothing is gained by spreading them (till you get the free relgion civic).

So, I think to myself, what if the new relgions suplanted the old?

One way to do this might be to flag most of the 'old' faiths as non-missionary and the latter ones as missionary - that is, the first relgions only spread 'naturaly' (but the rate should be increased over vanila, and it would b enice if settelers took the faith of the city that built them). The latter faiths (the ones that tend to be ingored in the game) will let you build missionary units, so they will spread much more quickly.

Still, I dont' know if this can be done in a way that won't leave the AI out in the cold.

Another way might just to have a relgion spread much faster right after it is founded; if the latter ones spread to enough cities, AIs will adopt them. After a certain number of turns after it's founding, the spread rate will start to drop back down to normal.

Or, simiarly, the spread rate of any faith might be affected by it's age; the faiths founded earlier in the game will spread more and more slowly over time, giving newer relgions an edge. Possibly this might also affect the success rate of missionaries.


Another thought is that, IRL, many relgions were historicaly intolerant; they didn't tend to play well with others. Sure it makes sense in the modern day to find Hinduism and Christianty in the same area, but back in the daythe more agressive relgions like Christianity tended to try and remove the compition.

So, perhaps certain latter relgions would have a tendancy ot 'remove' others in the same city?

Back to my previous idea, this might even be tied into the age of the relgion so that any newly founded relgion will tend to drive out others in the same city.

Of course, a civ having the Free Relgion civic would negate this effect in either case.

 

[Ankenaton]

All these suggestions are great. I agree with most of what Hian said, especially the addition of a number of missionaries from the beginning for Islam and Christianity. With christianity, you could argue they should get twelve apostles . I dont think Islamic temples should have a penalty to trade, Muhammad was a merchant before he was a theocratic conqueror. But it is there to balance out the great and fanatical unit.

As for taoism, "Taoism currently has about 20 million followers, and is primarily centered in Taiwan. About 30,000 Taoists live in North America; 1,720 in Canada (1991 census). Taoism has had a significant impact on North American culture in areas of "acupuncture, herbalism, holistic medicine, meditation and martial arts..." http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/taoism.html

So Taoism originated in China, and has largely stayed there historically. But in the post WWII era it has moved beyond this country, is now more concentrated in a neighbouring country (Taiwan), but it has moved into the west, especially with the growth of new age spiritualities and new religious movements.

@Ankenaton, thanks for the compliment, i like this eye of horus as well. If only the egyptian pantheon had been more successful, and it wasnt just Isis that left egypt

The thing with the Egyptians was that they were not that interested in expansion (that usually translates into the exporting of culture, religion, etc.) other than down into Nubia (the birthplace of significant portions of the Egyptian pantheon) and up into the Near Eastern city states and petty kingdoms. They were more interested in vassalage, tribute and overall border security. Now just imagine if they had more of a Roman ethic, it might have really been "Khemet Forever". A good portion of Africa, the Middle East and most of the souther Mediterranean region would probably have been under her sway...sigh. In a way they were similar to isolationist pre-WWI America...they were just not that interested in the world outside of their realm.

 

[Los Tirano]

A real shame. I wouldnt want the missionaries taken from any religions, if a player wants to spread their religion and make it a global religion, they should be able to. But increasing the natural rate of spread for Christianity and Islam is something i support.

By the way, has anyone got great satisfaction when they have had a state religion, seen another founded and then destroyed it before it has got off the ground and even spread to one other city? I reeeeally like doing this, changing history in such a drastic fashion. Usually christianity suffers this fate if ive taken Zoroastrianism or want Islam.

 

[WarKirby]

How about making ancient religions able to spread outside borders naturally, but not throiugh missionaries?

WarKIrby

 

[Houman]

@houman

hmmm.... regarding zorastian temple, and other temples... I thought ALL cultural buildings are destroyed when one captures a city?



10 pages since august 31. I think its pretty popluar. i think Realism Mod should attempt to open up its own section in the project & mod development. It makes it much easier i think all Houman, mexico, and nightravn, israfil, any others i missed. (havent seen them post in a while though) It makes it easier because they can look at different threads, relating to different things.(example a thread for bugs seen) Opening one of these make the topics organized. if i want to discuss redcoats this thread, another thread for religion, etc.. In conclusion, i think at the very least the idea should be considered.

How shall I know, I never played the game. But according to the XML files a temple, cathedral etc have a chance of being destroyed upon conquest. Some buildings always get destroyed. I will post the values here soon to discuss this further...

Regarding popularity and own section in the project & mod development, well...aehhmm...well...we have since almost 2 months our own section that was given to us by the administrator. The truth is I had no time to set it up until now. It is private and only visible to the team members by now...

I will try to open it on this weekend.

Regards
houman

 

[ericos]

Helicopters MI24 and KA50 are fixed. I have found the problem with Zoroastrian Shrine as well and will fix it tomorrow. What else is needed for the next patch? BTW I have a theory could the comeback of huntman unit be again the CTD problem we are experiencing?

Good night
Houman

For the next patch you should include multilanguage like in 2.0 cause 2.1 is not working right with french version! mexico was supposed ti check this so i dont know what happened

good work btw your mod is very good!!

 

[banknobber]

Hi again, I seem to be spending more time looking at these boards than playing at the moment (just had another CTD around turn 360...) but it has occurred to me to post a couple of things that might be of use:

The mercenary mod means that I can build up twice the forces I would normally before starting a war - I just build my units and stick them on the open market until I have enough forces - and I don't have to pay any maintentance on my mercs forces until 3 turns before I bring them back and move them to the front.

I can think of some possible solutions that could arguably be more realistic.

(1) giving these forces a merc 'de-promotion' that means they don't fight as well for the nation that built them.
(2) only allowing them to fight for the home side when there is a General present, as national pride would need to be bolstered by leadership.
(3) bringing them back into my forces with no promotions and 0.1 health, again reflecting loss of discipline and bad conditions during mercenary service.
(4) possibly the most realistic is that they have a chance of going rogue - this happened with the Thuggees in British India in the 19th century, and probably elsewhere. After being demobilised these Indian troops formed a cultish highway robbery syndicate that made travel dangerous in several regions for several decades.

I'm not sure if this idea is fully baked just yet, but it might spark off some other views in the rest of you?

BK

PS will I have to buy Warlords to keep playing the newer Total Reality mods?

 

[noid]

5) paying maintence for units that are not hired ?

 

[[JAPS]BookRev]

Semi-random thought:

Another thought is that, IRL, many relgions were historicaly intolerant; they didn't tend to play well with others. Sure it makes sense in the modern day to find Hinduism and Christianty in the same area, but back in the daythe more agressive relgions like Christianity tended to try and remove the compition.

Agree with you on this except christianity has progressed some what.
islam might be a good example eg illegal to convert in muslim countries, non muslims considered "infidels, and other religions outlawed. also maybe islam should suffer a negative impact in science or happiness because of censorship and lack of other religion but gets a reduction in war unhappiness.

the mod is good so far, much more engaging than vanilla civ, but stopped playing till warlords patch is out keep up good work guys.

 

[flexter]

Houman!!

In The Next Patch Can You Make All Helicopters Carry All Infantry And Most Veichles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For Instance You Cant Load Commandos Or Marrines Onto The Infantry Chopper!

 

[Houman]

Yeah its a bug and will be fixed. Thanks for mentioning. Any other important bug? (no feature request for next release please)

 

[banknobber]

@ Noid

think you might have the simplest solution there...

 

[storm6436]

Something that might be considered for future feature improvements: Paying a percentage of upkeep on units assigned to merc status would be more fair than the full upkeep. If I'm paying full upkeep, then I want to actually be able to use the unit. 50 or 75% upkeep would probably be about right.
If you wanted to get intricate, keep a counter (or invisible buff or whatever) that keeps track of how many contracts a merc has served... most of the merc-types (er, "security agents" for the Blackwater types) get paid a rediculous amount of money and they save a lot of it... each job means the unit is better able to support itself.
Ex: 0 Jobs, 100% upkeep, 1 job 75%, 2 50%, and so on... depending on how you want to justify it all.


Also, on the CTD/Loopage, I've played through as the Americans on the TR world map on the default and all the lower difficulty settings, never finished a game. Some odd behavior I noticed is the lower the difficulty setting, the earlier the crash happens. (Ie. Default, I made it to almost the 1800s. Warlord I hit 300 AD and zap.) I'll have to do some more testing to see what's up for certain though.