[mod] TOTAL REALISM 2.0

Good idea with mercs. Let see if Mexico is able to implement this. The problem once a merc has been hired by another civ and he is fired and back in the queue. Who pays the upkeep? It is good though that mercs with lower experience need normal upkeep while more experienced less upkeep. This makes sure people don't overflow the market with cheap units and use the merc pool as a cheap army reserve pool.

Regarding CTD, I think there is a certain unit that might cause the problem. Maybe a new unit....has anyone played with the new huntsman (blond skirmisher) is it working smoothly? no CTD?

Thanks
Houman
 
I have a comment in regards to CTD,

The developpers should provide us with guidelines when we report a CTD.

I am one of the many players experiencing a CTD and I have no idea if the problem encountered in my game (see post #1853) was identified, is being worked on, is already solved or unfortunately, was ignored completely.

Bugs fixing is a lot of work and there should be a template for us to follow so that we, the players, can streamline the way we communicate problems with the devs and help increase the quality of the mod.

Lastly, in post #4 it is mentionned that we should post our bugs at sourceforge.net. However, that site is not suitable to most of our needs. For instance, we can't attach saved game files because they exceed the size limit. Also, sourceforge aims to help the tracking of bugs, but many of us are not able to identify the bug itself, just that we experience a CTD so we don't really have a bug to submit.
 
@houman
i have attached the save with ctd

tell me if it related to the bugs you found
the AI use merc , me not

tell me what is the prob , if you can figure
 
I haven't seen the huntsman as an option for me to build, but I know I've lost a decent amount of my "El cheapo" units to em. El cheapo=units I throw against city defenses/fortified positions first to weaken them before I send in the actual units I expect to win... usually they're "El cheapo" because it's cheaper to just build the newer units and they don't have the XP to justify the upgrade cost. Oh, also I noticed some oddities while watching my brother play last night:

1. Tool-tip for Crusaders states they can't be upgraded, but all his crusaders had an upgrade option to grenadiers.

2. On the custom-map AI loop, it didn't behave the way I would expect an AI loop to work. Granted, I'm not a programmer anymore (did some stuff in college before I joined the Navy), but when I expect an AI getting stuck in a loop in Civ, I'd expect that your turn would never come and you wouldn't get control of anything. The following info might only be really useful to the original civ programmers, but still might help: After a short bit in the "Waiting for other civs state", any associated video lag from the AI players was absent, which leads me to believe whatever loopstate it's in, is not locking down the CPU... which from what I remember of my programming courses, is not a conventional loop. Sounds to me like some function might be waiting for input before letting the game advance a cycle/stage/whatever, and it never gets that input. Guess I'm being nitpicky, but that's my understanding.
Also, mouse-based zoom function and unit selection was disabled, however you could still use keyboard zoom, click your advisors. and mouse over stuff for tooltips. Additionally, if you went into the city advisor, you could select your units on the pop-up garrison bar... once selected, you could not move them, but you could issue upgrade orders which were followed.

Dunno how much that helps, but hopefully it does.


Re: merc upkeep
Turn 1: @home, upkeep: home
2: hired, upkeep: home
3,4: in-transit, upkeep: free
5: Arrive at employer, upkeep: free
6: Fired, upkeep: free
7,8: In transit, upkeep: free
9: @home, upkeep: home

I figure: When mercs get a contract, that contract includes cost of travel and estimated cost of contracted operations (that way the employer doesn't have the opportunity to shaft them out of their travel and upkeep).

The more I look at it, it makes more sense to give a unit-promotion for successful merc contracts, because as a unit gets more successful contracts, they'll have more personal cash on hand as a unit and individuals. If this "Merc-XP" buff were to keep to merc-specific type stuff, another point of note is that mercs have a vested interest in staying on top of their game and would probably spend a decent amount of their own money to make sure they had the best weapons (both individually and as a unit) and training.

Of course, it could get out of hand, so you'd have to limit how many contract buffs are available, and how the benefits would scale from each one... thinking something like:

(assuming everyone's mercs get hired about as often as mine do, which is almost never)
Merc XP L1: -25% upkeep, -5% upgrade cost
L2: -50% upkeep, -10% upg. cost, +5% STR
L3: -75% upkeep, -35% upg. cost, +10% STR
L4: -90% upkeep, -50% upg. cost, +15% STR
L5: Free upkeep, -75% upg. cost, +20% STR

Where upkeep is justified by their pocketed cash, upgrade cost modifier is self-interest + cash onhand, and +STR is based on them having the cash to afford better training.

If the merc-hire rate is quicker (ie. I might be dumb with my mercs), then you might want to cap the upg. cost mod around -50% so that you have to spend more than $75 to upgrade from warrior to mech inf :P

Bleh, at this rate, I should probably just look at the FAQ, see what the reqs are to volunteer and see what I can do to help out :P

Post patch notes:

1.2rc2 Made internet proof (copied to notepad and edited changes for rc1 in)

1.2rc1 Remembered a quirk, edited in; also fixed spelling. Added patch notes. Eaten by the 'net

1.1rc2 Summarized 1.1rc1 quickly.

1.1rc1 Added reply to merc unit upkeep because I hate double posts -- This post eaten by a grue. Took too long to type, login timed out, and the page ate it.
 
I just found out that Keshik are weaker than normal knights. Was this intentional? I thought the mongols were renowned for their brilliant horsemen?

Also, I've been using the huntsmen for many centuries as russia and not a single problem. Don't think I ever used them to attack though. THey're more defensive.

Will you be undoing the cruel restrictions on religion spreading? In my game there arre only two non Buddhist civs out of 18 because the ancient religions were unable to provide competition and christianity came far too late.
 
WarKirby said:
I just found out that Keshik are weaker than normal knights. Was this intentional? I thought the mongols were renowned for their brilliant horsemen?

Also, I've been using the huntsmen for many centuries as russia and not a single problem. Don't think I ever used them to attack though. THey're more defensive.

Will you be undoing the cruel restrictions on religion spreading? In my game there arre only two non Buddhist civs out of 18 because the ancient religions were unable to provide competition and christianity came far too late.


The mongols were known for their brilliant horsemen, yes, but their accomplishments were centered around their horse archery because no one at the time could duplicate what they did. I'm at work right now, so I can't check out the stats to see if I can try to justify what the mod makers did more :)

As far as the restrictions being cruel, there was a justification post a few pages back concerning this. More or less: if they unrestrict the early religions, then the new ones are undercut by the sheer mass of people with the old religions and can never really take off.
To address the Christians coming along late, I'd say that's the fault of whoever took so long to get it researched.
Oddly enough, the whole time I played vanilla Civ 4 ('bout 3 weeks) I pretty much ignored which religion I got, if I researched one at all. Now that I'm playing TR, I try to avoid getting Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and Islam... just because I really don't want to deal with the down-sides... that, and crusaders make your neighbors squishy until they get macemen :)
 
WarKirby said:
I just found out that Keshik are weaker than normal knights. Was this intentional? I thought the mongols were renowned for their brilliant horsemen?

That's because keshik's are a replacement for the much earlier on the tech tree horse archers, not a replacement for knights. If they were better than knights they would be insanely overpowered because you only need Horseback Riding to produce Keshiks, where knights you need a whole pile of other techs.

Historically it wouldn't make sense to put them better than knights either, since mongolian tactics were designed for use against foot soldier armies of China and the various eastern tribes and caliphates.
 
CynicalMagician wrote:
That's because keshik's are a replacement for the much earlier on the tech tree horse archers, not a replacement for knights

No, keshik archers are earlier on the tech tree. Keshik need civil service, same as knights and are in fact the replacement for knights. If you still dispute this, check the entry for keshik in the civilopedia. "Unique unit for Mongol empire (replaces Knight)" But they're weaker.

Keshk and Keshik archers are different units in TR.

WarKirby
 
what do you think about introducing a new tech "telegraph", electricty as a prereq tech and it would lead to radio.. it could give to +% of trade routes and hmm cant figure out what exacly now :) Telegraph had a great impact on comunnication in the world i think it should be added :]
 
noid said:
what do you think about introducing a new tech "telegraph", electricty as a prereq tech and it would lead to radio.. it could give to +% of trade routes and hmm cant figure out what exacly now :) Telegraph had a great impact on comunnication in the world i think it should be added :]


The telegraph had a large effect on civilization at the time, but the big question is how to realistically quantify it... and then you have to justify adding another tech to the tree, since there's only so much memory/cpu time/coder's free time :P

On the roll of the "Unsolicited Feature Request" train, I wonder how plausible implimenting a Federal Reserve Board national wonder would be? Req'd 8 banks, cuts down inflation (or alters the equation some how so your upkeep isn't quite so ********.
 
Hi all,

About Keshik: in fact, Mongolians armies were nearly only made of Keshik Archers. As CynicalMagician wrote they were very strong against armies made of foot soldiers, as those founded in China, Persia, Russia,...and so on. Their tactic was simple but very efficient.
First, they built the modern system of companies (10 men each). With 10 companies, they had a battalion and with so on until they had a group of 10.000 men. These armies were dispached in three columns. The column of the center was the strongest and was the Khan's one.
Second, their tactic. The column of the center goal was to pin down the foe's army whereas the side columns went to the flanks and the rear. These two side columns used their powerfull bows to weakened as more as possible the ennemy and to break their morale. The goal was also to surround the ennemy army. As every body knows, a surrounded army's morale has 90% chance to collapse. On when they routed the ennemy army they began to use shock tactics (to "finish" the job).
Simple, easy, if not primitive (Hannibal used nearly the same tactics 1400 years before at Cannae ! ) but very efficient....
Just remember that it was the Mamluk armies of Egypt that stop the Mongols in Syria. And the Mamluks were also mounted archers mixed with Heavy cavalry.

So, i don't think that a " special " Keshik is usefull. There was no knights is Mongolians society. Mongols prefered quickness and indirest tactics to power and shock (as in Europe).

The Frog.
 
Ok, still playing on my last game (with the first problem stack deleted), I managed to cause a CTD myself when I tried to bombard an empty barbarian city with a naval unit (I had previously killed the last defender with another naval bombardment).

I'm not sure if the citie's defenses were at 0% or not, but I think they were.
 
think it might be stack promotion to siege weapon cousing CTD ?
Like 2 catapult stack, one bombards and recives some stack bonus,but merging stack bonus whith range bombard may couse troble.

Cant check it my self as i had uninstalled civ4 (windows xp emptied recycle bin, but it was My Documents acctually, exept desktop folder) so i lost config. Now im off for few days so dont want to install Civ4, as i get late for train.
 
@Anaztazioch

This is a good idea, maybe if we remove the stack aid for siege the CTDs would go away. Maybe...

Regarding Keshik; we have two Mongolian units; Keshik Spear horseman (Knight) and Mongolian Horsearcher (Horsearcher). But have advantages and disadvantages, combined together they are very hard to stop. I will double check the values and explain why it was done in this way.

Regarding Religions, I see we really need a FAQ. It was my fault to think everyone was playing this mod since 0.65 version, and knew the development. Maybe there is a need for improvement, I see what I can do this weekend about it.

1) Adding more ancient religions
2a) Ancient religions cannot spread over border normally but missionaries could go over the borders and successfully spread a religion. This means the player has still be active in spreading the religion, it doesn't do it automatically like the modern religions. (Maybe harder to program)
OR
2b) Missionaries of ancient religions shall not be allowed to go over borders (as they are now) but the general spread rate into foreign lands shall be allowed but very low. (I suppose easier to program)

So what do you think of this solution?

Besides, there is no need to be afraid of taking the ancient religions in this stage. Take them, use their advantages, later if you wish to invent a modern religion, you still can do so and convert to the modern religion. The ancient religion will be going away slowly...We need a FAQ.. :D

Houman
 
But ancient religions don't just go away. As of 2005 Hinduism has 1 billion followers. Making it the third largest religion in the world

Judaiism has 15 million followers, making it the twefth largest religion. Bet there'd be a lot more if hitler was never born.

Zoroastrianism has around 100,000 followers today. Well, it did get destroyed by the arabs.

I just don't think it fair to limit the ancient religions so harshly. Hinduism has so many followers because it is so old. I don't see how you can justify making the old religions fade out.

In contrast, estimates put buddhism's adherants at around 350, 000,000. That's a lot, but nowhere near as much as hinduism.

Ideally I think these restrictions should be lifted completely, but if you're not willing to do that, then I would choose option 2.

WarKirby

On a lighter note, in recent Censuses, 510,000 people worldwide declared their religion as Jedi Knight. That's more than Zoroastrianism has now. Maybe add that as a really late game religion, like with the discovery of mass media? It could get a super fast spread rate because of modern technology. It's in real life, is that not qualification enough for total realism?
 
Zoroastrianism has actually over 200.000 when counting those being Zoroastrian by birth in Iran, India, UK, Tajikestan, USA, Canada and a bit Pakistan. And this is the number without counting the converts into Zoroastrianism. There is no statistics about it but in the past 30 years it is increasing. I assume (totally my opinion - have no offical reference for this rather than based on my own research) there are another 100.000 overall converts in Iran, USA, Canada, UK, Tajikestan, Uzbekistan, Ukraine, Belarus, Brazil, Venezuella and Europe.

1) I understand your point as well. Maybe history had developed differently.
Maybe we should lift the whole idea of local religions then (even for Judaism?) Shall we just reduce the spread rate of ancient religions accordingly, but no other restrictions? So then modern religions have a higher spread rate and higher chance to manifest themselves?

This could work, since we keep the Holy city part of our mod. If you still neglect your founded religion you loose the holy city (incl. the shrine) and another civilization would get it. This way we still prevent the players/AI having lots of shrines and holycities and get massively money. And you still have to be commited for one religion and don't keep all religions for yourself while everyone else has nothing.

So what do you guys think about 1) ?
 
I think that's the best idea I've heard in ages. Thank you for listening Houman.

Giving newer religions a few extra missionaries to get them started should help to even the score a bit?

WarKirby
 
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