[MOD] *Very* Realistic Religions - Ready!

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Islam is the last religion ever,
Wow! Get your facts straight. Islam was made in the 600 ADs. Well, we have Sciencetology, founded in 1952 A.D.. A bunch of Protestant Christian religions were founded in the 1000 A.D.s Falun Gong was created in the Seventies. There are a lot of religions that came after Islam.
BTW, I think this mod is very racist against Hinduism and Judaism. This mod is based on what you think the world is like, not what the world really is like.
 
Face it: offering to create something that depicts any religion--much less several--"realistically" is asking for a steaming pile of trouble. ;)
 
Glinka said:
Face it: offering to create something that depicts any religion--much less several--"realistically" is asking for a steaming pile of trouble. ;)

Which is EXACTLY why I suggest that all such "diversification of religion" mods should really DITCH naming the game's religions after real religions, and come up with doctrines or theologies as the names. "Messianism", or "Revealed Truth" for a couple examples. You get all the benefits of new combinations and abilities, without offending anyone and without having to interpret what the real religions stand for.

Additionally, it avoids creators not knowing jack about the religions they are trying to portray... for instance Hinduism. There's no such thing as "the Hindu religion". There's dozens of faiths, with vastly differing schools and thelogies, from monotheists to pantheists to polytheists to what-have you, ALL of whom are properly described as Hindu.
 
I totally appreciate your effort in makin a religions mod,but I think that modifying religions that way will take a part of the whole gameplay fun,in my opinion,half of the fun of civ comes 4m creating a whole customizable world, not that related to the reality,only created in the brain of the player,I could play with islam and be a pacifist or an agressive country,that depends on me not on some bonuses or penalties.
Also,the whole historical features of religions were created by civics not by the religions themselves,e.g all the invasion of north n south america was done by christian countries,but that was done due to certain political causes not due to being "christian",so I can't force a jewish player to be the weakest country in the military side or he'd choose another religion,or tell a hindus player that he should abandon his religion after it becomes obsolete,that would simply makes him never use the mod,and I don't think that it was your goal after all that effort,n that's why the game designers didn't open up the whole religions differences at all (who would want all the indians or the jewish never to buy the game)
Anyway I repeat it again,U've really done a great effort there,but I think the next mod you should create is a civics mod that could really affect not only the religion but the other systems of the gameplay same time,which is what happens in the real world.
And by the way I'm Egyptain and muslim also,so I didn't say what i said due to religious difference,but it's what I think only about the whole mod thing.
 
Funny you mentioned "Reveald Truth" as I was working on a personal mod that replaces ALL of the RL relgions with some simular to what we saw in AC. "Revealed Truth" is just one of the names I have come up with too. :D

The one thing I wanted to do was to tie some of the bonuses to food like Abumouse did in his mod, but make sure there is no link to RL religions. I think an effective balanced model like this could be an effective sub for what we have now.

Religion in this game not balanced anyway. Christianity and Islam are at a clear disadvantage if you want to play with those religions as a founder as they come later and timing becomes that much more difficult. Plus the fact that you are trying to spread to cities that could have 3-4 religions already.

I like a more felxible model that reduces some of the overwhelming benefits for the founder of the religion and focuses more on the benefits of having a certain religion that is more based on strategy and gameplay style.

This way you can have those differences that would benefit say religion A in a military way +1 exp for units if state religion is A or no benefit from certain foods without the stereotype and offense that has gone on so far. NOt to hard to do IMHO.
 
I'm beginning to understand exactly why Firaxs made religion the way they did :)

In reality, as mentioned before, all religions are fundamentally the same thing anyway. The only significant differences between them are really in their histories, considering this is a game that lets you re-write history...

The idea of differences between the religions is good, but it would be best if those differences could be developed in the game, not by some preconceived notions of a designer with their own personal beliefs.

Perhaps the best bet is to make a mod that assigns known religions to the appropriate civilization when a "religious" technology is discovered. For example if I am playing the Arabians and discover Meditation first I would found Islam. Then, bonuses or penalties could be applied based on when the religion is founded rather than which religion. Other effects such as denying the use of a particular resource could be used to offset the benefit of having a religion. So, if I was playing as India and founded Hinduism, and had no access to wine at the time, wine would become a "forbidden" resource, or maybe even the other way around. Anyway, the point is that you can't take a game where none of this history has happened and try to apply historical influences to it.
 
Sulla I don't understand why do you say that. I mean, I made Tao's & jews very scientifically advanced. I made christian cities happier... that's my view on the world's religions. And like I also said, Islam is the most expensive tech in the religions (divine right), so it HAD to have some advantages! If I haven't told you that I'm a Moslem you probably wouldn't have said all that

About your suggestions: I did exactly what you said about ancient religions (difficult to spread), modern religions are differentiated just as you said too! Read posts previous to yours to see my understanding about theoretical vs practical religions (as example to christian tolerence)

About purging non-state religions from your cities, there's a mod for that. But I'm almost sure the AI can't use it (since it causes unhappiness too, so it can't "weigh" it without python).. so i'm waiting for a "fair" mod

I answered twice why free religion had to have a disadvantage, please go read the previous posts!

About american culture: you can tell when you see weird-looking houses that ur in China, people wearing turbans that you're in india, people wearing large white dresses that you're in the Persian gulf area.. etc. But what will you say when you see people wearing jeans? It's everywhere! Same goes with food: hamburgers? It's just everywhere! etc etc

Mayan I was trying to go with the theoretic teachings of the religions rather than the actual practises :D

Jolly You're really stressing on my nerves jolly! 5/7 religions can spread to each city till the game ends! I even gave christian missionaries 3 movements where Islamic missionaries had only 2! What's your problem??? :mad: Even Islam has a lesser chance of spreading since it comes in late in the game!

"Changing the tech tree"? What the <snip> are you talking about? There's not a tech xml file in my mod in the first place!! :mad: :mad:

I'm not ignoring your post as you can see, but 99% of what you're criticizing (and I say 99% to be polite) is not in my mod in the first place! Gosh!

screw read all of my first post and you'll understand what is meant by their "obseletion"

Fex Are you saying christians, who made the crusades (ancient & current) are not less tolerent than buddhists, who're supposed to love everyone??

And don't speak of Moslems holding grudges till you read the jewish history! They tried to poison prophet Mohammad 1400 years ago, and they're stealing Palestinian lands today! Although when Europe treated them as a plague in the middle ages, they sought refuge in the Islamic countries and lived in them until the first 1/2 of the 20th centurie peacefully where nobody picked on them

For the jews I gave 2 positives (research & trade routes) and 2 negatives (small number and small military power), what are you complaining about?? I cripple them on 3 resources but I double their benefits from the other 3 resources! Totally balanced!! Gee you're looking at the mod with one eye only!! They can use extra gold from their trade routes and selling their techs to hurry production of military units thus counter their small numbers!

Impaler It always makes sense to have a prophet, who builds a shrine, to establishe a religion, not the other way around :)

AlCosta Islam is the last religion in the GAME! Judiasm and Hinduism are NOT spreading anymore, and have not been spreading for centuries! These are my views, as well as statistical facts ok? While till today, 50,000 americans convert to Islam annually. People in east Asia conver to Christianity till today too. So it IS realistic

Nour Egyptian? Give me a PM to MP sometime :)
No el yahood can be the strongest player! They can sell their techs to generate gold + their trade routes and hurry production of military units! zyy ma bye7sul begad

And if you enjoy non-realistic religions, or to create your own world as you say, then you shouldn't be using any religious mods. Not mine nor abbamouse's... just use the vanilla game, which sucks in my opinion because I go with the total opposite (I don't like to "create my game")

Seven Read my reply to nour + your idea prevents civs who never found a religion to ever found one when they research a religious tech. Though I admit it's kinda weird to see hindu americans and Moslem chinese. But it's not less weird than seeing Isabella building the pyramids!
 
AlCosta Islam is the last religion in the GAME! Judiasm and Hinduism are NOT spreading anymore, and have not been spreading for centuries! These are my views, as well as statistical facts ok? While till today, 50,000 americans convert to Islam annually. People in east Asia conver to Christianity till today too. So it IS realistic

No, but you earlier say that it was the last religion ever created. Which isn't true. Judaism and Hinduism are still getting converts just not as much as Islam and Christianity. When you put that in the game, whoever ends up getting stuck with Hinduism and Judaism is going to be doomed from the beggining. Essentially, you are creating a world that will be dominated by Chrisitianity and Islam. Again, a reason Judaism isn't spreading is because millions of Jews died in Europe during the fourties. It's hard to spread a religion with so many of your own people dead.
 
Those religions get an early start, thus an early bonus. And to balance things out, they had to have a late penalty. Again, just in real life. And if I could make their missionaries cost much more in the late game I would, but that's not an option (unless I invent new techs and new buidlings etc etc). And 5/7 religions can spread till the game ends, not just xianity & Islam.

Judaism isn't spreading because it's not a multi-race faith, unlike many others. Jews are not TRYING to convince anyone with Judaism anyway, that has got nothing to do with the holocaust (<snip>). And even if current jews were 15 million + 10 million, that's still a very small number compared to the billions of Moslems and Xians, who try to include as many as possible from all other races into their faiths
 
Fieryphoenix said:
Which is EXACTLY why I suggest that all such "diversification of religion" mods should really DITCH naming the game's religions after real religions, and come up with doctrines or theologies as the names. "Messianism", or "Revealed Truth" for a couple examples. You get all the benefits of new combinations and abilities, without offending anyone and without having to interpret what the real religions stand for.

Yes, that's not a bad idea. I too feel a bit uncomfortable with the portrayal of actual religions in the game, especially since their depiction is so inaccurate and misleading.

Fieryphoenix said:
Additionally, it avoids creators not knowing jack about the religions they are trying to portray... for instance Hinduism. There's no such thing as "the Hindu religion". There's dozens of faiths, with vastly differing schools and thelogies, from monotheists to pantheists to polytheists to what-have you, ALL of whom are properly described as Hindu.

I wouldn't quite agree with your interpretation of Hinduism but I do agree that they got Hinduism very wrong in the game.
 
Fachy said:
[screw read all of my first post and you'll understand what is meant by their "obsoletion"

I did read all of your first post, and the rest of your posts, and it still isn't in the least clear what you mean.

You said Hinduism is made "obsolete" by Monotheism but I can't imagine what you mean by that. Do you mean that monotheism is more spiritually advanced than polytheism?

If so, then you are another one who has fallen for the mistake Firaxis made in associating Hinduism with Polytheism. Hinduism is not polytheistic, it's MONistic. Go and look up monism on Wikipedia so you know what it means. And while you're there, I suggest you go and read the entry on Hinduism as well.

If on the other hand, you mean Hinduism and Judaism are "obsolete" because they no longer make converts, you are wrong on two counts. First, you are wrong to think that the practice of Hinduism is not spreading. It IS spreading, in the West, alongside Buddhism.

Second, you are confusing actual history with potential history. Civ is not about replicating history as it happened, it's about asking "what if" history had happened a different way.

For example, if it hadn't been for the Roman Emperor Constantine officially adopting Christianity around 300AD, Judaism might well be a major world religion today. About 30% of the Roman Empire was Jewish in the post-Christian era, and Jewish proselytes were numerous and effective. But when Christians gained political power they quickly put a stop to the spread of Judaism.

If the Emperor Constantine had *not* adopted Christianity, then the history of Judaism might have been very different.

A religious mod should not reflect what actually happened in history, but what MIGHT HAVE happened under different circumstances. Your mod presupposes a given historical outcome, ie the situation that exists today, and that is not appropriate for a game of this type.
 
Ok, Fachy, I see your point...

You're right - your mod is perfect, all the 34 persons, which voted that it needs more work are completely wrong (not mentioning that 10/36 (27%) called you a jerk - I was not one of them), because the only good answer for the poll is - "Man, you're a genius! The game wasn't playable before I used it!"

So the 2 votes - 5.5% - (one of them is yours, I suppose) are much more important and represent better players opinion than 34 worthless votes (94.5%)

I realy don't get the point of allowing more than one answer in the poll - I suppose it was just to give it an appearance of a real poll :goodjob:

I didn't mean you changed the tech xml file - just that your chcanges are visible in tech tree - that's why I wrote "changing the tech tree" - please don't pick some small pieces of my posts just to try to proove I'm one of these 34 persons, who are completely wrong in opposite to the 2 righteous votes.

I don't see any point in this discussion, in which everybody except you is wrong.
 
Screw Obseletion means they lose their ability to spread. So "obseletion for the potential persons to whom that religion could be introduced to" if you prefer that sentence :)

About those religions spreading, then sure ya, every faith might be getting at least 1 convert per year, without exceptions, but that's not a reason not to obselete their spreading in the game. Why? Read my reply to Al Costa in my previous post (which had no nicks in it) - first paragraph

Jolly Just because most people see it needs modification doesn't mean I need someone who doesn't know or doesn't want to read to bash at things that are not even in my mod. Criticize all you like, provided that you mention things that I actually included in it.

You're bringing things out of the blue, assume I put them in the mod, then criticize them. Then when I'm mad you go like "ok you're mod is perfect and we're all stupid"!

If I'm wrong, I challenge you to explain every point you made and tell me WHERE is it in my mod, but you won't do that. Nor would you ever confess that you were wrong and that you actually accused me of creating features I never created. Now about the techs, what have I "changed in the tech tree"?
 
1. Fachy - maybe it was my fault to read your posts about things you changed carefully, if I didn't I probably wouldn't "assume you put them in the mod". You asked twice or so all the people to read your posts before commenting - did you read your posts ? There are some contradictory information in them...

2. I don't criticize your work at all, nor you as a person, just try to point out things, which need to be rethinked - please, read my posts carefully ;)

3. Your wrong claiming that I would ever admit I was wrong - I made an confusive mistake. I read and thought "Monastery" and wrote "Temple" - that is, I suppose, the reason you tell I write about the things you didn't include in your mod. I'm really sorry for this misunderstanding, blame on me...

4. About the tech tree - I meant 2 changes:
a) Monotheism obsoletes Hindu monastery - Monotheism didn't affect Hinduism so much, that they razed or stopped to use their monasteries
b) Theology obsoletes Jewish monastery - Jews still are waiting for Messiah, Christianity didn't affect their religion in that poin at all - Jews just don't believe in Jesus, who is the awaited Messiah according to Christianity - so Jews didn't ruin their Synagogues neither.

All I'd like you took under consideraton is not to try mirror some historical events in the rules, but give a POSSIBILITY for them to occur - and the only reasonably way to do this is adding more religious civics - to give a player a CHOICE, more possibilities, not making the game follow as much political events as possible - in civ4 it's the player who creates these events. I hope you know what I mean - just that trying to include history of faith in religion rules is not the way :)

5. All I wrote above doesn't change the fact, that your mod is not well balanced and all religions excluding Islam are too weak - I'll tell oce more - it's not the TYPE of religion, what gives war, scientific or spreading advantage, but the way in which the ruler uses faith or believes of his nation - so it's a proper CIVIC. It's not the Islam, which push people to perform suicidal strokes, but the way religious leaders use this faith, it's not the Judaism, which makes Jews earn money, but the attitude of religious leaders, it's not the Christianity, what caused the Crussades, but religious leaders - all these events and bonuses were because of particular CIVICS. Consider this when your anger drops :)
 
jollyroger3 said:
doin' some temples or monasteries obsolete, and thus killing some religions is absolutely historically false, reducing many alternate world evolution in game and (last but not least) - just unfair

jollyroger3 said:
And why Islam is the final religion ??? Just because you're a Muslim ??? I mean no offense towards you, but there's something wrong

jollyroger3 said:
Shortly speaking - I suggest to remove other religions temples becoming obsolete feature

jollyroger3 said:
Writting "final" religion I meant you make Islam in fact the last standing religion with possibility to spread and there's no technology or building which can stop that - that causes serious lack of balance between religions - other's religions cant't spread since some considerable time, while Islam can still spread and nothing stops that.

jollyroger3 said:
In your mod you favor Islam, cutting the possibility of better spreading of other religions by changing the tech tree - I just think it's not the best way

Looks more than just mixing the words "temples" and "monasteries" to me jolly. Could anyone, jolly or other, explain to me how does all that occur in my mod? Maybe he's right after all.. perhaps I haven't been reading my posts nor playing my mods, so I mistakingly included all that in my mod! So I'm seeking assistance from you guys

Now dear Mr Jolly, back to the tech tree issue:
4a) This is called changing buildings not changing techs. Even the very xml line is included in the buildings not the tech. And even if you know nothing about xml programing, you should've easily figured it out yourself since my mod has no technology xml file

4b) Many of the Jews beleived in Jesus as the Massaiah, thus converted and became Christians. Same thing happened with prophet Mohammad when many Christians and Jews believed he is a real prophet (and it happens till now). And just because some Jews didn't doesn't mean they don't beleive in him. And Judaism stopped spreading practically after the death of prophet Moosa (Moses) probably by a few years. Even when the Jews lived in Egypt after prophet Yoosof (Joseph) called them in, they lived as a closed sect and didn't try to convince Egyptians with their creed

If you want to remove history from the game to be able to re-write it, then your problem is not my mod being unbalanced, it's my mod existing. The vanilla version is perfect for you and you can re-write history all you like using it. If you think civics is the way, I'd be glad to see your "Jolly's Balanced Religious Civics" mod thread soon, and be sure I'll add alot of positive feed back in your thread then (heh heh just wait and see!)
 
If you read your own posts, as you recommend to others, you'll find it all in them - I didn't make a single thing up. :mad:

Oh my, I've just noticed that it's possible to check who voted for which answer... :rolleyes:

I swear I didn't KNOW your vote is the half of these 5.5 % claiming your mod is perfect - if I knew I would never use this fact in public :D

So the truth is that only 2,75 % of civ4 players build up your self-complacency... :goodjob:
 
I read them and haven't found what I quoted you claiming in my previous post.

I also didn't claim my mod is perfect on a public basis. And it's natural for me to think that on a personal basis, since I'm the very one who programmed it. And the poll -which is supposed to show what people think on a personal basis- is open for everyone, including me

And I'd LOVE to see you quoting me with 5 quotes (or say 3, since you admitted the third one was your mistake already, and 2-3 of them overlap) that shows how that is in my mod

Again for the tenth time: My problem is not you saying the mod is bad/incomplete, it's you saying it's bad for things that are not even in it How many times would I need to repeat that? Now I'm seriously demanding that you quote me, or quote lines in my mod, that prove your allegations. If you fail to do that, I want an admittance with your errors. Otherwise it's pointless to continue speaking on no basis
 
Fachy said:
As a general rule for the mod: Temples are only effective when existing under their relative religions.

Fachy said:
1) Prevent many religions from existing in a city
2) Make life hard for the ones choosing the Free-religion civic

Fachy said:
So it's a desperate solution for nations with 15 religions/city or something to soften the bad effect of multiple religions in 1 city. Also you cannot build missionaries without monastries anymore.

15 religions in a city while only 7 are available in the game :mischief:
Cannot build missionaries without monasteries, and the monasteries become obsolete - if not say "bad idea at all" it can be said "definetely too quick"

Fachy said:
You must have the religion a state religion in order to build its monastry, except for the hindu one. I personally use a mod to increase religious-switching anarchy to ~10 turns to make it even harder to switch religions. I suggest you do the same

in 10 turns my monasteries (if I was quick enough to build at least one) will become obsolete because next religious tech obsoletes them.

Fachy said:
Hindu monastery becomes obsolete by monothiesm (what, only 1 God exists??). Jewish monestry obselete by theology (omg, the Massaiah has arrived!).

As I wrot in previous post - Hinduists neither Judaists didn't raze their monasteries :mischief:


[OUOTE=Fachy]
Spread rates (original is 100):
Judaism & Hinduism: 10 (shouldn't spread after their obseletion)
[/QUOTE]

And in next post you claim no religion becomes obsolete... :eek:

Really, quoting out of context is very easy, so you didn't impress me with quoting my sentences, as you see I can do the same...

If you want some quotes from more of your posts I'll gladly help :D
 
1) Temples obseletion: What you said in your post had to do with "killing some religions", and "unfair", please explain under the light of that. And temples being effective under a certain religion doesn't make it obselete, because you can always switch back to that religion and have them effective again (with 2 exceptions which I've mentioned)

2) ?

3) I can't beleive you didn't realize I was being sarcastic. You're.. weird. Again my comment is another "?" since that wasn't a disputed point, I never refused THAT POINT being in my mod!

4) That's crazy man!!!! This point is ALSO not disputed about, in the sense of "you claming it's in my mod and me denying it's in my mod"! Anyway the 10-turn thing was a mere suggestion, not even in the mod.

And if you didn't know, your scientific research stops while in anarchy so you can't have the monestary obselete!!!!! (this guy is driving me crazy). It becomes obselete when YOU discover monotheism not when anybody does, unlike in civ2 & civ3. Gosh, do you even have civ4????

5) Who said anything about razing? I said they simply become ineffective! So they can't build missionaries anymore and spread their faith to more foreign cities argh!!!

6) You used the word "obselete" unlike me using it. I obviously meant "obselete" = its monestery obseletes = the rel cannot spread. Not like "it became too old to be good like an old PC" or something

You're quoting things totally irrelevant to what I have asked for. I said, "you claimed 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5. Show me where did I say that". You turned the whole thing into a rediculous discussion about the core of the mod again, and not whether I mentioned them or not. Nice try, but I, and anyone reading us (which I seriously doubt), weren't born yesterday
 
This whole thing, I noticed, has gotten out of hand. Perhaps this mod heavily favors Islam, but I don't think it was originally Fachy's intent to somehow promote his religion. The benefits that Islam recieves, while great from a gameplay perspective, is quite insulting considering what he based those bonuses on. He basically poked fun at his own religion by calling it bloodthirsty. :lol:

Here's some advice when trying to tinker with the religions that probably wouldn't insult somebody. You can attach only positive bonuses to religions. Think of how this works with the civilizations in the game. FDR for America is Industrious and Organized. Does anyone get offended America doesn't have the Creative trait? "America not cultured enough for ya!" Or that they don't have the Spirtual trait? "I go to church every Sunday!" No we just smugly say "Yes we are quite industrious and organized" :D

Dishing out penalties can be a problem. You can give the Muslims a bonus for warfare, but giving Jews a penalty will cause people to focus on the negative. By giving Jews a bonus to research, you effectively compliment their scholarship without, at the same time, calling the Christians neandertals attracted to shiny objects.

Get it? Try it out. See if it works.
 
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