Modern Communist Parties.

[Pellaken]

there's one reason why I'm left wing.

lets say you get sick. really sick. you are homeless, cause you cant work tog et a job, and you cant do much of anything actually. you have fallen out of 'the loop' and need help. you are dieing, you will die unless you get help. more help. then a rich person walks buy. you ask him for $100. you tell him, that $100 will saver your life, that you want him to give you $100 so that you dont die. but this rich person sees it as a tax. he dosent want to pay high taxes. why should he pay for the mistakes of others? no. he wants to go out and my some food or a nice cell phone, or other luxeriy items, to have fun with. he dosent want to give you the moeny cause he wants to have fun, to smile, to like it. so you can die, cause Mr.Rich wants to smile. look, your dead, and he's still smiling. wow, killing people makes mr.Rich smile..

this is why I'm a socalist. under that system, this will never happen.

 

[Pellaken]

from a chat, but read it now, so I dont have ti say it later

pellaken: they will say "this would never happan"
pellaken: and I will say "its only an example, this EXACT situation will probably never happen"
pellaken: they will say "not all rich people are like that"
pellaken: I will say "one is too many"

 

[NY Hoya]

Originally posted by Pellaken
this is why I'm a socalist. under that system, this will never happen.

you're right, under a socialist system that won't happen. Under a socialist system more people will die as the quality of healthcare professionals gets steadily worse and as pharmaceutical research is stifled. Tell me again why many Canadians come to the U.S. for medical treatment? The hospitals in upstate New York, Vermont and New Hampshire are filled with them...

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by CornMaster
Excatly. Only when they will profit from it some way. If there is no incentive...they could care less about their grandchildren.

Go ask a CEO that...
I think what you mean is "They don't care about my grandchildren, so I will punish them"
By the way, this has always bothered me... are the people who run 'companies' in socialist societies uncorruptable? From the real world examples we have of Communism, they were usually the most corrupt of the massively inept and corrupt bureaucracies.
Atleast CEO's are accountable to shareholders.

Originally posted by CornMaster
Most doctors do their job because they are afriad of mal-practice suits. And some aren't even afriad of that.

Can you sue a doctor in Communist utopia? If so, what for... compensation? Certainly not, all are equal.

Originally posted by CornMaster
Doctors that have try integrity don't make the big bucks...they work in small walk-in clinics, of foregin countries.....places normal doctors don't want to work because the pay is low, and conditions bad. I'll help mankind as long as I keep my 3 cars and mansion.

Its story time... health care, Communism, and my experience.
My dad was born with a weak heart, in east Germany in 1945. As he grew older, doctors told him he only had a few years to live. His father, prior to the Berlin Wall going up and transit between the Germany's being closed, was a middle class financial type in West Germany. When they closed the borders, he went to work for a comparitive pittance in East Germany. That point is important because they couldn't buy my dad health care. The only doctors who could perform the needed heart surgery were in Moscow, and they were too busy for a not-so-equal equal.
Make a long story short, his local preacher (Who was being investigated by the Secret police since they hated religion) had some family friends in Texas. In Texas, they knew some medical personell at the University there. The preacher relayed my dads story and the Doctor at the university of Texas, a trailblazer in the field of heart surgery (he died a few months ago and it made the news), offered to do the massively expensive and rare surgery on my dad FOR FREE. My dad applied to leave East Germany for a life saving operation and he was denied passage to Texas for political reasons. He decided to jump the wall instead, risking his life to escape Communist utopia. The first time he was shot in the leg. Do you think he went in for free medical care then? He would have spent the rest of his life in prison... so he had to get the wound bandaged, and tried again. The second time he succeeded, and two months later his life was saved due to the generosity of a capitalist, American doctor (who was filthy rich and could afford to be generous) saving him from Communist health care.

The wonders of socialized medicine, 'eh?

Originally posted by CornMaster
Everyone gets the same basic things. House, food, clothes for an entire year. If you work at a job deamed "harder" or "more skillful" or "more essential" then you would get paid more. Instead of an extra $5000 a year over the necessities for the garbage man, the Doctor might get $7000.

Money doesn't work in Communism. And if you can't get past that step...then you will never get Communism.

Don't those two passages seem very contradictary? More-equal-than-others? Don't we already have that?

And for the record, I don't WANT to get Communism; along with 99.99% of Americans (based on how well Socialist/Communist candidates do in elections), I'm quite happy with the system I have

Originally posted by CornMaster
At least....that's what some Americans tell me.

Well this American doesn't qualify Canada. Go read a book about some Communist survivors.
Of course, like most modern Communists, you'll retort the fact that the entire system was done wrong by the rulers, and given absolute power, you would do it all properly this time. Really.

Originally posted by CornMaster
If our company makes money....then they have to pay taxes on that money. So our company buys stuff...(like warehouses) and sells it to the other company for $1. Nice and legal.....but very unethicial.....like most of Capitalist America.

That doesn't make a lick of business sense
That, my friend, is captialism at its worst. And they're STILL pulling a profit. Of course, I needed to highlight the paying taxes part because in pure capitalism that wouldn't be a factor

I'm just confused about one minor thing... by working for this horrible, evil, capitalist American company, aren't you perpetuating the evil?
What was wrong with Canada? Was Cuba full?
I don't mean this in the traditional "love it or leave it crap", but you must understand that you seem to be dead set against a system you are benefiting from. Handsomly I assume.

 

[CornMaster]

Originally posted by Greadius
I'm just confused about one minor thing... by working for this horrible, evil, capitalist American company, aren't you perpetuating the evil?
What was wrong with Canada? Was Cuba full?
I don't mean this in the traditional "love it or leave it crap", but you must understand that you seem to be dead set against a system you are benefiting from. Handsomly I assume.

When your a minor....you really have no choice where you live.

And yes...I am doing very well.

I know how to work hard and make money. But just because I'm doing quite well.....doesn't mean this is the best system...because it's not.

And I'm really sick of people telling me that future Communism will always end up like USSR. Just like all capitalist countries end up like the pinical of freedom the US right.

Most Capitalist countries (that replaced Communist governments) only succeed because of US support. Otherwise they would flounder and die anyway.... And the US makes it seem like they did all on their own...with US guidance...bull****. Propping up a dictator just because he a capitalist....is NOT noble!

And many Communist countries fail or flounder because of Capitalist pressure. And don't deny it! The US sent troups to fight in the Bolshevik Revolution on the White side. So as early as 1917 the US was literally fighting Communism! And as you all know...continued for MANY years. (Cold War) The US...just like big business in the US, buys out anything it doesn't agree with, forces it down, brainwashes the people....it just sickens me.

Anyway....one final point before I nail this baby shut. There are many people out there that think like this:
"Well....the world is in pretty nice shape. Good Job everyone!"
And they fight to keep the status quo.
Others like me say:
"Well....we have a long way to go. I think we should try ______"
And we fight for new ideas and ideals. We are the ones that will shape the future....whether we succeed or fail....we are the future.

Thank You, and Goodnight.

No really...I have to get up early in the morning....
I volunteer to fix computers on my days off work.

P.S. This was at the bottom of my post field....but I don't know where it's supposed to go....oh well. Food for thought I guess. --> And there are many people who dislike the US system....you just won't acknowledge them. <--

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by CornMaster
I know how to work hard and make money. But just because I'm doing quite well.....doesn't mean this is the best system...because it's not.

Ahh... the old "It works, but lets fix it anyway!"

Originally posted by CornMaster
And I'm really sick of people telling me that future Communism will always end up like USSR. Just like all capitalist countries end up like the pinical of freedom the US right.

Err... that is because I have never heard of anyway to implament Communism without it being a tyranny; and all tyrannies have certain identical characteristics. The USSR was a Communist dictatorship, which is why it is the best example.

Originally posted by CornMaster
Most Capitalist countries (that replaced Communist governments) only succeed because of US support. Otherwise they would flounder and die anyway.... And the US makes it seem like they did all on their own...with US guidance...bull****. Propping up a dictator just because he a capitalist....is NOT noble!

The few dictators that were propped up were assisted because they were people we could work with... their economic beliefs were really secondary.
And the fact that the U.S. COULD support these nations has to say SOMETHING about the fact that we just might have gotten it right.

Originally posted by CornMaster
And many Communist countries fail or flounder because of Capitalist pressure. And don't deny it! The US sent troups to fight in the Bolshevik Revolution on the White side. So as early as 1917 the US was literally fighting Communism! And as you all know...continued for MANY years. (Cold War) The US...just like big business in the US, buys out anything it doesn't agree with, forces it down, brainwashes the people....it just sickens me.

Right... if Communism can't survive of its own merits, don't blame the U.S.
Troops left before 1919; can you explain the next 70 years of failure?
How come capitalist countries didn't crumble away to Communist pressure? You're acknowledging WHO has the power while avoiding WHY they do.

Originally posted by CornMaster
"Well....the world is in pretty nice shape. Good Job everyone!"
And they fight to keep the status quo.
Others like me say:
"Well....we have a long way to go. I think we should try ______"
And we fight for new ideas and ideals. We are the ones that will shape the future....whether we succeed or fail....we are the future.

Uhm... Communism had its chance and failed...
And I don't know anyone in the first catagory. There are people like me who think that the system isn't broken; it just needs tweaking and maintenance.
As compared to scrapping the whole thing and starting with blueprints that have produced one failure after another? That is progress?
I'm always willing to listen to new ideas and judge their merits. However, I've yet to hear anything new under the guise of communism; amatterfact, its a very tired, old arguement that had its chance and failed miserably.

Originally posted by CornMaster
And there are many people who dislike the US system....you just won't acknowledge them.

I'll LISTEN to anyone. Most people don't have much to say...
However, unless they're U.S. voters I really don't care much about what they say (unless it is something new & interesting). And I've already told you what U.S. voters say.

 

[ComradeDavo]

It is an economic theory that necessitates a government for it to work. Please convince me why I, as a freedom loving capitalist, should adhere to communist ideals.

I could say the exact same thing about capaitilism. And as I tried to point out in my post I share the same views as CornMaster, so go read his post's if you need some persuasion.

Personally i'd rather you thought about it yourself, the reason I call myself a communist is because I realsied that my views were communist, not because I was persuaded by anyone.

Uhm... Communism had its chance and failed...

Dum da dum, thats very pestimistic, seeing how the only alternative is capatilism, which will lead to the destruction of us all (my humblein opinion of course).

 

[Pellaken]

Originally posted by NY Hoya
you're right, under a socialist system that won't happen. Under a socialist system more people will die as the quality of healthcare professionals gets steadily worse and as pharmaceutical research is stifled. Tell me again why many Canadians come to the U.S. for medical treatment? The hospitals in upstate New York, Vermont and New Hampshire are filled with them...

cause the government thinks that ALL forms of private health care is bad. we need a joint system. I've stated before, a 100% socialist system is just as bad as a 100% capatlist system. we need to share.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Originally posted by ComradeDavo
I could say the exact same thing about capaitilism. And as I tried to point out in my post I share the same views as CornMaster, so go read his post's if you need some persuasion.

Personally i'd rather you thought about it yourself, the reason I call myself a communist is because I realsied that my views were communist, not because I was persuaded by anyone.

Dum da dum, thats very pestimistic, seeing how the only alternative is capatilism, which will lead to the destruction of us all (my humblein opinion of course).

In order

1.) I find CornMaster's arguments on the glories of communism as persuasive as a giraffe in dark sunglasses and a fake moustache trying to get into a polar bears-only golf club. And aren't you lefties meant to be big on people thinking for themselves?

2.) No amount of thinking, pondering and realising is going to persuade me that my views are communist. Persuasion would have to come from without. Not that it would have a hope of success.

3.)Pray tell, my dear chap, what is this phantasmagorical jabberwock so fearsomely labelled "capatilism"? I have never encountered such a terrible beast in all of my travels.
Now, if we are talking about capitalism, that I know, and to be quite honest I can't see it as the instrument of my downfall. Maybe "us all" just refered to the communists.
And you are eminently correct. It is is an opinion that you should be humble - nay, very, very humble about.

 

[CurtSibling]

To the apologists of communism...
Yes, communism is great isn't it?

Millions dying before and after WW2 in 'purges'.
The elite still exists in the communist regime, greed is still there.
Because it's still humans in charge...

Communism doesn't work, but it's worse than democracy.
Both still have corruption; Let me put it like this;

GW Bush might be a capitalist executive, but at least he doesn't execute countless thousands of Americans for disloyalty and then work over 3 million more Americans to death on mad industrial projects and farming reforms...communism disregards humanity.

It's sick.

No matter what you young, idealistic middle class kids think.
Maybe if some of you had some real hardship and lived in a
Totalitarian regime, you would have more sense...

Stop listening to rage against the machine and wake up.

 

[NY Hoya]

Originally posted by ComradeDavo
I could say the exact same thing about capaitilism. And as I tried to point out in my post I share the same views as CornMaster, so go read his post's if you need some persuasion.

Personally i'd rather you thought about it yourself, the reason I call myself a communist is because I realsied that my views were communist, not because I was persuaded by anyone.

Dum da dum, thats very pestimistic, seeing how the only alternative is capatilism, which will lead to the destruction of us all (my humblein opinion of course).

You see, the issue with communism is that for it to work under a non-totalitarian government, all of the people in the society have to adhere to the communist philosophy. That's why I asked for someone to convince me to become a communist. I've examined political and economic systems on my own and decided that capitalism is the best system for me. If even one person digresses from the ideals of communism and thinks like me, the government of a communist state must be totalitarian by nature. You may call it a slippery slope argument, but I really don't believe a communist state is possible without the totalitarian government to back it up. If someone can give me an example of a theoretical, non-totalitarian communist state, I'd be interested to see how it works.

this is why I'm a socalist. under that system, this will never happen.

cause the government thinks that ALL forms of private health care is bad. we need a joint system. I've stated before, a 100% socialist system is just as bad as a 100% capatlist system. we need to share.

Pellaken,

what kind of system are you advocating, exactly? Before it sounded like you wanted complete socialized medicine. Now it sounds like something between the Canadian and American systems. I can agree with the merits of the latter, although I still wouldn't be in favor of it.

 

[ComradeDavo]

No matter what you young, idealistic middle class kids think.

what the hell makes you think i'm middle-class?????? I'm about as working-class as it gets. Thats the problem with all of you anti-communists, your so narrowminded.

I find CornMaster's arguments on the glories of communism as persuasive as a giraffe in dark sunglasses and a fake moustache trying to get into a polar bears-only golf club.

And your methods of argument are about as persuasive as having hitler come round and offer to castrate me.

 

[amadeus]

What's the difference between working-class and middle-class?

I'm in a middle-class family, and both of my parents work.

All the other middle-class families I know have parents that work...

 

[NY Hoya]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
What's the difference between working-class and middle-class?

I'm in a middle-class family, and both of my parents work.

All the other middle-class families I know have parents that work...

well, working class typically refers to "blue collar" type work. But families with two blue collar workers are more often than not firmly within the middle class these days. In fact, as economies became more developed over the course of the 20th century, and with the coming of the so called Information Age, more and more families are middle class. This is one of the more important reasons for why popular support for communism has dropped.

The U.S. is no longer a country with enormous companies led by an elite few who paid their workers starvation wages (think robber barons). The majority now earn decent wages that enable a very comfortable standard of living. Even many welfare families in the U.S. are able to afford cable television and internet access. As more blue collar families started to have two wage earners, these families have moved from what would have been called "working class" or lower middle class to firmly within the true "middle class".

 

[CurtSibling]

Anyway...

As I said, you wannabe communists should give up.
In the real world, trade and democracy have the upper hand.

The thought of any of the great western industrialised nations
becoming some fantastic communist wonderland just because
some student idealists wish it so is a load of compost.

And ComradeDavo, do you really think communism is going to
ever be in any way popular in the UK?

If so, you are deluded.

Rmsharpe, it's a pity your middle-class parents didn't teach you
how to be civil...

What a bunch!

 

[Whiskey Priest]

I guess I have to go into my little communist spiel agian but anyway...

Communism is neither a form of government or an economic system it is a view of history. Marx was neither an economist or politician, he was a philosopher, He had a doctorate in Philosophy from the University of Berlin.

Marxist theory revolves around a few main principles.

1) Alienation. Marx states that man is made to suffer when he sells his life for money. He says that man is not meant to be a machine working for money to spend on things that distract him.

2) Co-option. He states that capitalism will reign as long as people accept the system that will work to their disadvantage. Essentially he says wanting the corvette is what keeps you repressed.

3) Hegelism and Economic Determinism. This is the trickier stuff. Marx puts forth the history of class struggle. In his theory history is as follows

Communal/ Tribal living
Slavery
Feudalism
Capitalism (with facism being its sign of decay)
Socialism

Now his reasoning for this view of history is based on Economic Determinism. Essentially it means philosopies and cultures arise out of Economic situations (this is where He breaks with hegel who said that philosophies and culture arise from a "Zeitgeist" or spirit of the age). Marx states that the Class systems of Plato and Aristotle arose to justify their exploitation of slaves. Stoicism arose from a need for hardy soldiers and citizens in Rome. Monotheismic religions arose to justify the rule by ordained kings and Capitalism arose out of the middle classes boom and the values of the "Protestant Work Ethic". Anyway marx continues by saying that capitalism is so exploitive that eventually man will just snap (Alienation). This will lead to, and this very important, a spontaneous, violent, international overthrow of the power elite. What will come from this is first a "Dictatorship of the proletariat" (meaning the lower classes will establish the government, something that marx says has never truly happened before and in his time it had not). and after a brief period of dictatorship of the proletariat will arise a socialsit state. And he says that since history is the story of class conflict when you remove class conflict (as in a socialist state) you end history. So in a sense socialism is the last revolution.

Essentially he says a socialist revolution will not work if it is not international, violent and spontaneous. And since no revolution has acheived this it is hard to judge whether or not his system is true.

This is a little over-simplified and I am sorry for that.

Any way to end I would to insert my favorite quote from Marx. HE was upset with what was being done in the name of Marxism and said,
"I am not a Marxist".

 

[CornMaster]

I think that was a pretty good post Whiskey Priest. Breaks it down for us.

But what I hate is people like CurtSibling who although post funny polls, , Can't tell the different from a voting model and en economic model.

His views are based on Democracy (US) vs Communist (USSR). But it's actually Democracticlly elected Republic government following Capitalist ideals (US) vs A government that overthrew the Czar, and became a dictatorship following Communist economic ideals.

It's hard to understand people that can't tell the difference....their posts seem to be a little off. Ex. The way they explain something, or stance they take. Like Democracy and Communism can't co-exist. Which is totally untrue. Just because it hasn't existed....doesn't mean it can't.

NY Hoya has said what I've been saying all along. If the people don't believe it, then it will fail. That's why you need to get all the Communist together, form our own country, and create Utopia. Then when you Capitalist pigs come banging on the door wanting to come in...I can say I told you so. Or more acuratelly....my 300 year old corpse.

 

[Pellaken]

here

a little explanation of profit:

lets say you are the CEO of Acme co. you are selling a widget.
it costs 1 money unit to make.

you wanna sell it for 2 money units, and 50 money sub-units. AKA, 2.50

if you sell it at 2.50, you make 1.50. but Mr.Soviet thinks that the poor wont be able to afford it. so he makes you sell it for 1.05 you still make some, .05, but thats not alot. eventually, due to the lack of profit, you go out of business. Mr.Smith, Adam Smith, on the other hand, wants you to sell it for 100,000.00. you'd make alot, but no one can afford it. you gotta find something in the middle. I think that the gov should buy nessacary things for people by paying the poor a living wage. once people can live, then I see nothing wrong with businesses doing "bad" things, like they do today.

 

[CornMaster]

Originally posted by Pellaken
I think that the gov should buy nessacary things for people by paying the poor a living wage. once people can live, then I see nothing wrong with businesses doing "bad" things, like they do today.

Excatly. Once everyone is on level playing field, then it's up to them to make their life better. They work hard for the extras....but there would be no one without.

But business and medicine and energy, and transportation, and environment should be strictly regulated.

 

[Pellaken]

yes, there should be a 1000% max on profit (EX, if your product costs $100 to make, you cant sell it for $1000) this would help out in medicines especially. some of which cost thousands, when it should only cost hundereds.