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[BTS] Monarch Genghis Khan - My midgame is atrocious

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by reflec, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    My T42. Just to show what I had in mind in my initial comments. Also, trying to show what I think matters in the early game and what is less significant.
    Spoiler :
    So I went BW first because I promised ;) though I think pottery first is a bit better. 4 cities, 4 workers with two more to come by T45. Lots of fps to cottage, a lot of forest to chop and so on. I don't think slavery is very useful here because of strong natural :hammers: and no :)-resources. Guess that means I need to build mines even, but have the workers for that. Army consists of 1 warrior and 1 scout which is easily enough. :lol: Pottery in 7T and the workers immediately cottage the whole field of flood plains. I think I'll ignore the horse/rice for now and go for copper and an axe attack. Talking about a "rush" with 5 cities feels wrong.

    Civ4ScreenShot0242.JPG

     
  2. reflec

    reflec Chieftain

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    Not in the mood to play another turnset tonight cause work killed me, so I'll ask some general questions instead:



    What are the advantages of going to war this early? It's just something I tend to do if I find someone close enough, but how does it compare to REX? I suppose if you capture a city then you don't start that city at 1 pop, idk I feel like you could get the same results just by REXING. I guess we get wilhelm out of the game early but he won't be a big problem until later

    Is there a spreadsheet or something that shows how long each improvement takes?
    In particular, why do my roads sometimes take 3 turns instead of 2?

    What's the appeal of keshiks? It seems like the general opinion is that we should go to war because we have horses readily available, but they just don't look that good to me.
    (and if I do go for keshiks, what do I do until horsebackriding finishes?)

    What direction should this game go? I feel like there's a lot of different but valid paths I can go, which would be the best for learning?
    I know I said I wanted to focus on war but would that problem be fixed if I focused more on early game economy?
    (I've already learned a lot about rex just from these 40 turns)

    How do you fogbust on a land map when there's just so much open land?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  3. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Desert and Tundra increase worker time by hmm 33% ? so floodplains roads are 3 instead of 2t.
    (floodplains are desert tiles on standard scripts)

    Early rush benefits depend on the quality of AI land and cities, here Willy has 2 gold mines so..;)
    Keshiks or in general 2mp units make progress at double speed compared to Axes, Swords etc.
    HAs are such good units cos they require a managable tech and are not that hammer intensive.
    + AI cities are often still weakly defended, and you attack fast with surprise on your side.

    Knights i.e. are also good units on paper, but look at how many techs they need.
    AI cities have walls or worse castles in that era so HAs have a much easier task.

    If Keshiks are not looking good to you that prolly means you are not valuing fast movement high enuf.
    AIs will react to you declaring and moving stacks close to their cities, such as whipping more defenders.
    Against mounted they have less time, and you get the benefit of capturing cities quicker.

    All being said you could also take Amsterdam with Axes.
    Starting to really like mounted would help you improve your game more thou.
     
  4. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I think this is a really good question. You are correct in that taking out a weak AI doesn't really do that much for your game. I guess the biggest prize is the capital, which is always a pretty good city. Here it is a holy city so the free :culture: is worth something. Capturing workers is a nice bonus as is claiming a lot of trees. You also get :gold: for capturing a city! City size will be size when captured minus one.

    Haven't seen one. Desert/fp/tundra improvements take a longer time. Roads and cottages an extra turn and (fp) farms extra two. Not sure what the exact rule is.

    edit:
    I was about to say this, but then I realized cottages are 4T and fp cottages are 5T, so it can't be exactly that.

    The appeal of keshiks is that HAs are one of the best units in the game, and keshiks are even better. I never think that "oh I have copper/horse, now I need to war", but that these strategic resources make the war a possible option if there is an AI nearby. If you go for HBR, you should build up your empire in the meantime, focusing on :commerce:. Your choices so far have taken you away from that path though I feel, since you haven't been going for a :commerce:-buildup but rather for the immediate max :hammers: approach. That's why I said I think it's going to be an axe war.

    Well, you've already made some pretty significant strategic choices probably without understanding what you are doing. That's why it's important to play really slow and stop to ask questions (both from the forum and from yourself) at every point. No worries though, I think your position is pretty good so far.

    You don't. Fogbusting is... let's say far from mandatory. Ask yourself what is the point of fogbusting? To prevent a bothersome barbarian unit from spawning and entering your lands. But you need to pick your spots, you definitely can't spawn bust everywhere. I have only the scout spawn busting in my T42 screenshot.
     
  5. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yes...please stop the No Espionage silliness.
     
  6. reflec

    reflec Chieftain

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    T42-66
    Spoiler :


    So here's where we left off.
    Decided I'm going for axes, it doesn't really make sense to settle next to copper if I'm not going to use it. However because I didn't think it all the way through last time I played it leaves my workers in an awkward place.
    Sent W worker to road down to Ning, and E worker moved to the copper and roaded it. I think it took 8 turns until copper was connected.
    In the meantime 2 north cities are slowbuilding workers which will finish the rice and cow






    Just finished roading copper, starting 3 axes + chariot in SE city since it's not roaded yet
    Pottery finished, teching writing
    Workers are chopping for axes, SE worker is working on cottages since it's not making axes



    Wilhelm build 2nd city
    Sending all axes to the blue square, they will move 2NW then be able to attack without crossing river



    T57
    at this point I have 6 axes + 2 chariots and a chariot in the north, and I'm also finishing 3 more axes. Going to stop and focus on graneries now



    T61
    DOW
    Left 2 axes in north cities since I thought I didn't need them, probably a waste to make them then
    Sent all 4 workers to build FP cottages or chop graneries


    T63
    Moved my army and then took amsterdam in 1 turn, lost 2 axes



    :yuck::yuck::yuck:
    Idk why but Joao is always a big problem in my games
    Writing finished and signed open borders with everyone
    I believe I started teching mathematics
    Moved my axes towards wilhelm's other city, I think 6 axes vs 2 archers

    I had 3 chariots nearby, and they all 3 died attacking the city. In my mind I could've taken the city if I was lucky (20% win) and if I didn't care if they died since that would lower unit cost, in hindsight that unit cost is insignificant and a better play would've been to keep them/not make them if I was going to throw them away



    T66
    Axes finished off wilhelm without a problem.
    Auto razed, whipped a settler in karakorum (prob should've slowbuilt so we can work cottages more) and will prob rebuild city there.
    Captured 1 worker so now I have 5, sending a couple to improve and road to amsterdam.







    Thoughts:
    Probably built way too many axes, I only lost 2/7 of main army and I still have 2 fortified in cities. I would've also had 3 chariots left if I didn't throw them away. Those :hammers: were probably better spent on settlers/workers

    Questions:
    What's the plan now? REX or attack someone else?
    If I do attack again, wait for iron working and/or construction?

    If I REX, where should I settle next?
    All land:
    Spoiler :



    Some potential spots I'm thinking of is south of Ning for 2 deer+1wheat, way north to get that stone, the spot of wilhelm's 2nd city (likely for my 6th city), somewhere SW of amsterdam to get the 2nd gold

    Since only 1 gold is in Amsterdam's bfc, should I not work it and build another city to get both? That way I only build a market/library in 1 city instead of both.

    Since amsterdam is holy city, is it worth it to build shrine if I get a great prophet? I don't know how it's decided what type of GP you'll get, but either way is it worth trying to get one?

    Looking forward to feedback :crazyeye:
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
  7. Snowbird

    Snowbird Prince

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    Desert and tundra are 25% extra turns rounded up.

    Ice - 50% extra turns rounded up.

    So desert cottage 4 turns +1 extra, farm 5 turns+1.25 extra rounded to 7.

    Tundra fort is 13 turns (10+2.5), ice fort is 15 (10+5).

    Round up is final action I believe, so it might be profitable not to chop and improve as separate actions:
    tundra farm with forest on top - separate is 7 turns farm and 4 turns chop, but combined it is (5 farm+3 chop) +25% tundra (2 turns), so 10 not 11 turns. But I don't think i ever played game in which this thing mattered.
     
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  8. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    That's very nice! :thumbsup: Your warring is significantly ahead of my T66 (I think I attacked T67) though at the expense of weaker developed core cities. My fp-field was already fully cottaged AND every cottage was worked T66.

    Since you have so many axes left, I'd be tempted to just continue warring towards west without delay. Swords don't change much I suppose, but catapults change everything (nothing can stop you then, if you have decent numbers). So I guess you are bit of locked to do both expand with your own settlers and expand via war. :)

    It sounds like you didn't pay much attention to my T42 screenshot. :) I think that is the type of core you should be going for and to me you are massively underrating those floodplains. They are close, connected by the river, allow tile swapping between cities, have decent amount of forest, :commerce: is what you need right now... Due to your starvation for :commerce:, stuff like 2*deer+wheat in the S or cow+rice N of Amsterdam I wouldn't even consider. These cities will hurt your :science: and should be ignored until you get your economy running. I'd put just one city to the floodplains area now (instead of two like I did, because I did it much earlier) and the next one to claim pigs+gold S of Amsterdam. Then no settlers for a while.

    Hmm, no I wouldn't worry about that. Markets are so bad you often shouldn't be building one (bad because of the massive :hammers:cost). Working max amount of cottages asap is much more important than any of this.

    No. Shrines are simply bad, because :gp: are so valuable. A scientist bulb is worth +1500:science:, a merchant mission almost the same in :gold:... How could a building producing some pennies per turn compete with that? The type of GP is decided by the type of "sources" you gathered the points from. Every wonder has a type (Oracle/SH produce prophet points, Mids produce engineer points etc) and every specialist is producing the type of points they are.

    I think the biggest choice right now is what to research. I think going for keshiks is still tempting, though that would pretty much mean you'd try to conquer the map with them. :lol: If you want something steadier, going towards construction can't be bad. Alpha is another decent choice, allows you to trade and extort techs for peace and also to build :research:.
     
  9. Jarno

    Jarno Warlord

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    Looks like you're doing well. One thing I noticed is that you already promoted your axes to cover (+25% vs archers). Try to save these promotions until the moment you'll use them, you never know what your quite up against and they are vary valuable for healing as well. Also debatable whether city raider would've been a better choice, I use CR 9 out of 10 times over cover, maybe only use cover when picking off archers in the field.
     
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  10. Chase_2_Rabbits

    Chase_2_Rabbits Warlord

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    Losing them both...
    You've played the early game pretty well. You say that mid-game tends to be your biggest problem...but on Monarch you can just click buttons and win easily from a strong start like this. You can even waste time building markets or REX sub-optimally and still win at a canter! Move up difficulty ASAP.

    I think the standard thing to do here would be to tech Aesthetics; you have marble, do you want to to Lib Military Tradition and crush the map with Cuirassiers? It's also good trade bait for Alpha & IW, maybe Monarchy; but perhaps not on Monarch. You'll be waiting into the ADs for these muppets to finally tech Alpha. I had to self tech it when I played the map. Oh, and don't forget about barbs - I think that those axes you have sitting around might need to be put to good use soon.

    As others have suggested, you don't even need Cuirassiers. These guys are a long, long way from Longbows or Pikes - you could have a go at steamrolling the map with Keshiks. You'll take down 2 AIs even on a bad day. Or you could play a slower game. REX to 16+ cities, become the dominant empire. Win space, chug your way around the map with cannons, it's up to you. The map's already won, you just need to decide how you want to win and work towards that goal.
     
  11. FlyinJohnnyL

    FlyinJohnnyL You need more workers....

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    Another thing you can still easily get away with on Monarch is clicking "workers leave old improvements" or whatever it's called, and in the mid game you can start automating some workers. DO NOT DO THIS until you've improved everything to your satisfaction in your core empire. For the most part, you can do that once there isn't much left to do except build roads. The reason automating them is better than just "build routes" is because they WILL go and improve tiles as your culture expands beyond the first border pop (when you can't work the tile, but still want the resource.) I can still get away with that on Emperor too, but I have no idea if it's done on immortal or deity. Deity, I have a feeling, you need to control those suckers until the game is completely in the bag.
     
  12. reflec

    reflec Chieftain

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    Spoiler :

    So the play here is either go for keshiks or keep REXing until IW and construction. I still don't see how keshiks are so good if they get hard countered by spears, but in the spirit of learning, I'll be going the keshik route.


    T69, founded old sarai, 2 workers making fp and 1 chopping for a granery
    Whipped a 2nd settler to get that gold+pigs by amsterdam.
    Was planning on a 3rd city NE of amsterdam even though it was advised against; I changed my mind when I saw I'm only +5:gold: at 0% ;)


    (2 cities lul)



    :drool: I know who our next target is
    Conveniently I think none of his cities are on hills, and I couldn't find any bronze/horses that he has, so keshiks are looking nice vs no spearmen


    New sarai founded, sent a couple workers over there



    Last ai met



    Horseback riding finished, I can get archery in 1 turn if I lower slider a bit and add a scientist in kara
    After that, then what?

    The goal is to tech to great library while I'm out at war, and so I go for mathematics since that has the biggest immediate effect; there are still a ton of forests by amsterdam. But this brings up a question I have...
    What should my workers do here?
    I typically only chop for buildings/settlers/workers, is it worth it to chop regular units too?
    Should they chop military? Should they start on grassland cottages? PH mines?


    Julius has praetorians now... and since I don't have IW yet I don't know where he's getting his iron
    I considered going IW just to see where all the iron is, but I'd prefer to keep julius alive until like renaissance era or something when his praetorians are out of date, but I have a feeling he'll dow on me before then.

    I have 2/3 keshiks at amsterdam now. Does seeing praetorians change anything?
     

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  13. Jarno

    Jarno Warlord

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    Scout out his territory and see if you can find a tile with more hammers than usual, e.g. a 5 hammer plains hill or a 2f4h grassland
     
  14. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    You can plow through praets with numbers. Plus you have axes, neh? In the screenshots I see you building a lot of libraries, which seems like a waste of :hammers: to me. You are also working some horrible tiles like 2:food: or 2:hammers:. Not enough workers?

    Absolutely chop into units. Units are winning you the game, libraries not.
     
  15. reflec

    reflec Chieftain

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    Spoiler :

    Going to try to find julius' iron soon to pillage, and in the meantime tech to literature

    Building just axes and keshiks here
    I didn't bother making any workers, I figured I would get a lot from this war




    Aha!
    Whipped a keshik to go down there and dow/pillage in the same turn



    Dowed julius and pillaged his iron.
    Moved keshik to pillage horses in middle circle so that he can only make archers. (his prae kills keshik before I can pillage :(
    He's trying to expand to the north still, caught out a spear with 2 workers and a settler



    As I'll soon find out, that chariot is the only defender in the 2 northmost cities (there's one right below the tech bar)



    1st city captured, which also takes him off horses so that works



    2 more cities captured, keshiks are pretty good but I'm still unsure since I only had to deal with 1 spear so far
    Teching to mysticism+poly for literature, was going to trade with joao mysticism+fishing+IW for my aesthetics but I didn't think it was worth it. He also doesn't have poly so I need to tech that myself



    Moving my army to rome



    So that northmost city had no defenders, 2 free workers which will go work on the rice city



    After a costly battle, rome is mine




    Questions:
    What kind of cities should be keeping/raising? My economy is getting hurt hard which isn't a huge deal right now since I'm looting so much gold, will it be worth it to keep every city? I'm trying to cottage spam as much as I can.

    I feel like keeping these might be good, once they get up and running I should be so far ahead of ai

    It's worth killing off julius with the rest of my army right? I'm starting to get some unhappy from the war so not sure if I should get peace, rebuild for 10 turns, then finish him off quickly.

    I know many buildings are not worth it, at this point I will build granery/library/barracks in every city and then either units or more buildings depending on the city. Good or bad?
     
  16. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I don't think you should ever burn down a strong city. The reason to attack is to get more cities, not to raze anything. I see there are two Julius cities without :food:-resources. I'd either ignore them or if you feel like wiping him off is necessary, raze them.

    If you can, probably best to deal with the unhappiness now.

    Why are you building libraries? You are forced to run 0%-slider a lot so the :science:-bonus is very small. For example spreading hindu seems much better to me (also deals with the border pops). You won't need barracks everywhere either.

    I also have to say I think going literature is not great. What does it have to offer? GLib yes, but that is mostly a wonder for winning liberalism. I don't see how getting a GS fits with your overall play here. Well, at least music is close now, a golden age would be nice for your big empire. I think something like feudalism would make you closer to winning the game faster, currency would be great and so on.
     
  17. nebux

    nebux Chieftain

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    i would raze ravenna and cumae
     
  18. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Praets are low key stronger against Keshiks than Spears because of defensive bonuses being put on higher base strength.

    I wouldn't consider Spears to be hard counters to Keshiks because the second Keshik usually kills the Spear especially if you give them the Shock promo. More like a soft counter. A Spear vs Chariot is a hard counter.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
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  19. reflec

    reflec Chieftain

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    Spoiler :


    Traded to get alphabet from mehmed, don't like this trade much but it gives me alphabet and mehmed's my next target anyways


    Julius gives me IW for peace, gives me time to build up army again and rid of war unhappiness



    Built the parthenon because I can't start great library yet, I have the marble for it, and 1 less city making units isn't going to hurt.



    DOW julius again, take the south city and raze the E city



    julius dead.
    raze his last city, sending settler 1NE of the ruins



    I was thinking to myself "This game is basically over unless I do something monumentally stupid..."
    I'm -11:gold: p/t and I think that's after manually working all the cottages I could
    I set every city to research since I won't be at 100% for a while and also so I don't get any higher unit costs



    Mehmed throws me a bone by getting currency, pretty bad trade but he's my next target anyway for his juicy FP's



    Joao will trade me spice for marble, he doesn't have aesthetics or poly so it's fine...



    ...and the extra happiness finally pushes me into positive :gold:





    I think plan next is to DOW on mehmed, I have 15 or so keshiks waiting for him

    Question: when you expand fast like I did, is it better to keep going to war and getting :gold: through taking cities? Or is it better to back off and rebuild/improve your captured land first?
    (Or is it better to not expand that fast in the first place :shifty:)


    I'll probably kill off mehmed and then not update until I win, looks pretty straightforward at this point
     
  20. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    If you're bleeding gold at 0% research, you could also disband some units. Upgrades cost an arm and an ear and stuff like Warriors and Archers are completely expendable.
     

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