Monarchists' Cookbook I

[Nares]

Bleys, you're talking about building forges in cities that are capped (due to tiles) at 10-12hpt baseline (pre-SP).

I'm really interested in seeing where one of these warmonger saves will lead.

I would pick up your save myself, except I don't believe I can do it justice.

Instead, I guess I'll just vote for it.

 

[futurehermit]

@ Otaku, that sounds good to me.

For War, I would prefer my own save. For Peace, probably Otaku's. I prefer going to war of course.

 

[Bleys]

For Peace (my number 2 option), OTAK, hands down. He already has established a foothold on the New Frontier, he has a powerful set of Wonders for this map and a decent set of cities. The Western Marble is still open, so I would consider moving that settler off that island to the Southern Island, and chopping that forest into a Forge in Marble City. Nares has a strong point that we should be looking to settle landmasses, since that is what gives an extra commerce with the GLH TRs. Having a jump on that other landmass is pretty big.

For War I am torn between my own and futures. Future has cities, which will provide more economic support for the war, as well as more build queues to make units, and more citizens to whip into them, even. He is out of forests, other than 2 on Souther Isle, but thats not horrible.

The lack of Wonders holds me back though. The GPPs are very low. That isnt a total negative, because sometimes its better to prolong your GP generations into the next era, where they can bulb bigger techs. However, I really feel that Colossus is a solid investment, even if we only work the seafood tiles. In the war, when our economy tanks, Colossus may help us maintain a reasonable tech pace by working food-neutral coastal tiles for the 3C.

I like my save by a nose, mostly because of the Wonders and GPPs, though. I would be able to pump out a decent attack force, but I think too much hinges on my next GP and my "potential" trades to make it the "obvious" choice. Basically, my save has a lot question marks, when will I be able to trade, when will I get Maces if I dont pop a GE, etc etc, but regardless, having forges and barracks in place means I pump out CR1 Axes and Cats faster in those cities. future can keep his numbers high with more cities, but with only 2 barracks . . . I dont know. I think CR1 is a critical promotion for taking Sals PRO CG Archers down, and would build Barracks in his cities first if his save was chosen.

So, Number 1 choice, prep for War with Sal soon, I vote my own save, by a slim margin due to the ????.

Number 2 choice, Peaceful expansion past Sal, I vote OTAKs save by a lot.

 

[futurehermit]

Barring a major unforeseen problem, I plan on having the colossus in my game very, very soon.

 

[Diamondeye]

There is another issue : civic acess. Not all the saves ( in fact very few ) have access to what IMHO it is the Civic to adopt : HR .... the saves with HR will be able to reach Food cap pretty fast, a thing that combined with GLH will make a lot of diference.

I'm saying this because of ( shameless self promo ) my save...

Mine has HR aswell (shameless selfpromo)

I'm also a bit confused by some players' decision to deny Saladin the religion swap when he asked. Why generate a -ve when you could generate a +ve and hit friendly with much more ease. In my own game, I converted immediately on spread, and I've been sitting just below friendly for what seems like ages. Which sucks, because I could have milked him for a tech or two by now had we hit friendly.

... You kinda cut out the point in your own hand... One cannot trust an AI.
Other reasons, I posted in my save. Bad timing, working on important builds and teching important techs. Also, I rarely tend to switch outside GAs if not spi.

I personally don't like that idea. I think we need to decide on a best ball at this point and go with it.

agree

vale has shown it is possible to spam wonders and achieve a good level of normal development - that's a really impressive handling of a limited production start.

While vale has been the production guru, futurehermit seems to be doing really well on the tech/beaker front, and is well positioned to get Maces in good time to stomp Sal. It looks to me like early CS was a very smart move.

In any case, I don't see an easy consensus emerging this time. But, where the discussion's concerned, that's a very good thing imo.

I have definately learned a thing or two already, mostly concerning one of my hate-civics, Slavery... Vale has a really nice save

@ ALL:I'm sorry for the length of my posts ... I only have a certain amount of time to respond to all the day's posts before moving onto other things, so I have to respond to multiple pages of posts in just one of mine.

Sorry for the wall of text ...

You are forgiven...

The main difference I'd like to point out between the Bleys and futurehermit saves is that while futurehermit is only 1 tech away from Maces with a strong research rate, Bleys is 2 techs away with a weaker research rate.

The Wonders futurehermit sacrificed weren't any from the "must have" list and so are inconsequential, IMO.

The fact he doesn't have a Forge is more than compensated by the fact he's already adopted Bureaucracy (after all, his Berlin is making 5 more per turn than yours)!

Good points all 3.

The only saves Medina is even a single holy city in are OTAKUjbski and Vale (both Judaism).

Mine too, I believe...

In either case, who cares? Having the Hindu holy city (even if it is currently shrineless) is an obvious bonus, because Hinduism is a major religion in every save.

agree

However, having a second (or third) shrineless holy city to a minor religion doesn't do us any good. Not only will it cost us a Great Prophet to build the shrine, but it'll also cost us a lot of our scant to spread it all over the world.

If we want a shrineless holy city to a minor religion, all we have to do is play off either Vale or futurehermit's save, because Munich is the Confucian holy city in both of their saves. (Again, war averted.)

... Good point. I am not going after Sal because of a minor religion, but I believe, if we can our hands on his cities, we have free access to the other islands, enough hinduists to secure us as a candidate of the AP, and an AI less on our hands.

If we're going to war, we need to do it to get something we don't already have -- not to get more of the crap we don't need.

Free access to the next land, independant of Sals' mood?

It's also worth noting:

• Bleys must self research Alphabet (10 turns)
• futurehermit already has Alphabet
• OTAKUjbski is ~8 turns from acquiring it from Saladin
• Vale must self research Alphabet (6 Turns)

I have Alpha as well, although I might be a bit behind techwise apart from that...

Better Land is more Power.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I can't emphasize enough how much better the land beyond Saladin is than his own land.

The only thing Saladin really has to offer is a shrineless food negative (-3) holy city.

Everything else on his island (and even in his satellite cities) are things we either already have or can acquire more quickly and easily using a peaceful approach.

But the big problem is not that we doesn't need his land. Is that he does. We want him out, don't we? We might get him to friendly, securing our trade through him, but he will still vote for himself, and will not be under our direct control. Best case scenario is that he vassalizes volounteerly, which is useless. He is a potential threat, and will be hard to dispatch after longbows. We won't really gain anything from letting him live. Conclusion: !

Again, the fact Mecca is a holy city means nothing until somebody builds the Kashi Vishwanath there. Personally, I'd rather give Saladin as much time as he needs to build it, because if he expends the Great Prophet to do it, it's like a "free GP" for us!

Good point, agree. But we must remember, after he hits Feu, he will not be easily dispatchable.

Yeah ... well ... I tend to do that. I can type like 80 words per minute when I get serious, so if I spend too much time writing a post, it comes out more like a book.

I know that feeling...

And why not mine? I'm guessing there's something in particular you don't like?

The fact that you have a city on the other side of Sal biases your save against peace, which is not my preferred style... other than that, fine save.

I think futurehermit and Bleys' saves are geared towards war -- with futurehermit coming out on top.

I think Vale's is geared more towards peace.

agree

My save is also geared towards peace and in the aspect of peaceful expansion am ahead of all other saves. Not only have I explored most of the world, but I've also already settled in the "new world".

While other saves will need more Galleys and the 9⁺ Turns necessary to get them to the new world, I'm already there with two extra Galleys floating around.

My economy isn't quite as strong as Vale's, but I do presently have a slight tech lead on him.

All good points, and I like your save alot, if we are going the peaceful way...

IDK. I'm not saying my save is 'the best', because I'm obviously a little biased, but I'm surprised I'm not at least considered ...

There, there, there, i's' gonna be alrite... Seriously, you were considered, you are just too biased against peace, imo. Slob will have a hard time adopting to your save...

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that had I settled Cologne on Marble Island (instead of waiting to settle it as Frankfurt), I'd likely have a much stronger economy and the Colossus in Berlin right now. Essentially, I prioritized getting a base of operations in the New World over the Colossus and the 'guaranteed city' on Marble Island. Frankfurt will come online quickly, and I'll be settling great uncontested land before the middle of Round 3 (instead of by the end as in other saves). If peaceful expansion is the goal, I think I'm ahead in that department!

Agree.

I think the biggest factor is the map's overall strategy. For example, we can essentially attack Saladin now or expand around him and come back to it later.

I'm not saying we have to decide right now, since Diamondeye doesn't have to make the call until Thursday night.

But, I do agree that we need to stick to the format and choose only one 'best ball' to play off of for Round 3.

-- a lot of my 2 commerce

Agree on all points, especially the one about "a lot" . Nah, seriously, we will need to find out whether we want peace or war, and what save is best for what. See below . This post is some length...

After checking most of the saves, and aplying the same philosophy that I used in first round ( more options open from X save ) I would get Vale's save as my choice. He's more peace geared than Bleys and Hermit save, but I think it would be as easy to get a army of troops or settlers from there...... OTAKU save is also a good choice.

Hmmm... I would think FutureHermit was more open, but Vale is good aswell.

I was mistaken about the double holy city. In my game, Mecca has Hindu, not sure where Judaism is, maybe Damascus, to the SE. Even so, I still say its worth it to take Sal out of the game. His land is between us and our "frontier". His capitol is a better production city than any we have, even if there isnt enough food to work ALL the Mines. Our capitol would make a strong GP farm, his a strong HE city, and we find a new spot for our own Palace as soon as we can reasonably do so.

Good points.

I also disagree with his choice to settle ON the Copper. That is a pretty strong tile, and we certainly will have food to work a 5H mine, I already do. I would rather that city be 1E if not 1SE to save the grassland (my choice of the Copper City on the grassland is "sup-par" as well, but the 1E+2S plains site means another overlapped tile with the Capitol, making the 3S city even more crowding).

Actually, I find the 2S1E best after careful considering, only bugger is not grabbing Copper immidiately...

I am also a bit annoyed that Teching is being analyzed when some players have had an opportunity to trade and some havent. Apple and Oranges here. If I was to meet an AI next turn willing to trade me Monarchy and Alpha (plus, probalby) for CoL and MC, I would be a a MUCH more powerful position tech-wise. The fact that they met an AI willing to trade Alphabet before others did makes it harder to compare "tech status" at this time. We will all have the opportunity to make trades, and likely sooner than later, there are other AIs coming into the picture, shouldnt we wait to see who ends up "ahead" after we have all had trade opportunities? I am 9 turns from Monarchy, and then planned CS, with a reasonable shot at a GE for Machinery. future is 50 turns from a Great Person, and has no chance for an Engineer. I am 6 turns from mine, with a 25% shot at a GE, and 50% for a GM. Some have already generated their 2nd GP, and will easily have a 3rd before future gets his 2nd. Now, as I said, later GPs may be better than early ones, but still, overall, there is a significant difference in GPPs, not just a small one.

I can't agree with this argument... "if"s are part of the concept. If I had not gotten the Gold event, I would have been considerably worse off, if Suleiman had not spawned Ramesses, I might have a shot at Colossus, etc...

I dont deny that all the saves look good, and all have flaws, and its difficult to choose. After all, this isnt the Deity or Immortal Cookbook, its Monarch, a level where game flaws are expected, but not usually major. future's save IS solid, but he chose expansion over wonders and forges, and used his forests to do it. I prefer the Wonders and Forges and a few forests for later, myself, maybe thats just me. I actually like OTAKs save more than my own if we choose "Peace with Sal", because he has the Wonders and a foothold on the other continent. That cost him some time and growth, but it was a worthwhile gambit. He also has a stronger GPP generator than I do right now, and if we do move the cap and turn Berlin into a GP farm, its that much better for it already.

I like OTAKUs best for peace aswell, and I like Futures' choice. But again, that's just me...

So my vote is as follows. If War with Sal, me. Sal has a city near where OTAK founded Cologne in his game that needs capturing. That, plus the Barb City (coastal) plus 1 settler of our own will give us the foothold we need over there. I dont see a need to put more cities on Sals island, just take his 2 (both coastal) and be done with it.

If keep the peace, OTAK. Wonders = GPPs. He has a city on the new frontier already. He has a strong set-up for Berlin, and a settler ready to found the Western Marble area. I would chop the forest he is standing on into a Forge in Hamburg, myself.

Hmmm. I would personally prefer OTAKs for peace, FutureHermits' for war, but I pointed why already, above.

I wish Nares had played the Best Ball, because his game is also very strong. He has befriended Toku, and can trade techs there without worrying about them being spread all over the place to other AIs. Still, he has GPP generation problems currently (note, this isnt a BAD thing, either, later GPs may be slightly stronger than early ones in some ways, but still, his will come slow, like future's) I wish we could mix and match the best of each save, LOL, like Nares diplomacy, my Forges, OTAKs wonders and futures cities and techs.

One cannot have it all, unfortunately. We'll have to decide.

I 'squoze' in some time, lol ...

A GM can bulb Civil Service after Alphabet and Monarchy, and a lucky GE can bulb Machinery right now! Even an unlucky GP can bulb Theology (for Theocracy and trading fodder) or be settled.

Or saved for KW?

However, war with Saladin will strike a heavy blow to our economy, since we're relying on him and the civs beyond him for our lucrative trade routes. The futurehermit save has a tech advantage which is more apt to better absorbing the blow.

Still, in the long run, wiping him will be beneficial.

We knew this would happen even before starting this series. We can't judge the saves on what could've been. We can only look at where we are and where we're going. (It's kinda the same thing with me ... if not for my two lucky hut pops, there's no way my save would have any competitive merit this round.)

IDK ... given some of the other aspects of Bleys vs futurehermit, it might be worth it to gamble on the :gpp: ... after all, there's basically a 2-in-3 chance of getting a Great Person on the way to Maces.

3-in-4, not?

I just had a very quick look at one of the games (Bley's one, I think), to see what the land is like beyond our little corner.

I can see why OTAKUjbski is turning his eyes to the big island beyond Sal - there's a lot of good stuff there.

However, I also noticed that there are two fish off the south Arabian coast, which could be used to power a second city to take advantage of Mecca's hills. Between the two of them, we'd have a very solid military production zone.

And, on that subject, it looks like naval units are going to be just as important as land forces on this map. Our food, our trade routes, and our resource supply lines may need to be protected as the game goes on. And the ability to project power across the seas to interfere with a dangerous AI could come in very handy at some point.

Very good points all, completely agree.

I was kind of hoping for some acknowledgement of my massive exploration and foothold in the "new world" but so far haven't gotten much of anything from my save (positive or negative).

Well done

As stated above, though, your save is biased against peace, which might be a handicap when considering the BB.

@Otaku: Your scouting was unreal, honestly If going the peaceful route, your city placement is good. I just disagree with that choice. Like I said, I liked your save quite a bit. I am just in favour of attacking now.

@Bleys: Having forges is definitely good and I like the wonders (I think I argued most vehemently for going after ToA in the first round, for example). I am just in favour of attacking now.

Me too.

that's.. wicked... 11 times Pacals' strength???

Me three. In fact, my games generally revolve around taking Nat from Lib, being close to Rifles, prepping my Taj GA as best I can, and switching into Nat during it and out of it at the tail end (when not playing SPI, obviously). Thats why I love BIG BIG cities in that part of the game, because I often combine Slavery, Theocracy, PS (if I have the Mids) and Nationalism, whipping and drafting til I am REALLY on the brink of being dragged through the streets by my own people, then rolling over the AI of my choice.

I just pulled that move in the KK LHC. Wow, hes a great warmongering leader, even though I never got to use Keshiks. CRE is so good after taking over enemy cities. Seriously, if you guys want a cool GLH type game, check this one out, it has some similarities to our game here.

Am I the only one who has never drafted? Only time I used Nat was when I needed happiness in a warmonger game, and I didn't use draft...

KK was the leader whom I had my highest score with in Warlords. He is an excellent warmongerer.

I think aggressive is greatly underestimated on these boards, for two reasons:

1) It helps a lot with axerushing, which is more obvious

but

2) It gives all your drafted rifles/infantry free combat one, which imo is an excellent bonus for warfare during that phase of the game

Agree, powerful leader. He will be a challenge to kill off this game, if Joao doesn't REX him into a corner.

Ok, looks that I'm the only space junkie around here Not that I can't direct a brutal drafting spree ( just look as ICS 02, a SG where we have to settle cities 3 tiles away from each other ( mandatory... raze all the ones that do not fit there ) ... perfect drafting territory), but I tend to direct my game to a SS launch very often....

....and that is why I'm for peace here. Our new settled cities will pay up ASAP and we still have lots of terrain. I'm pretty sure that we can clean this map with arties and destroyers easily ( in the worst case scenario )... OTOH a war is always a thing that we can lose , and the mace vs archer window on saladin may not hold much time ( some games show that some AI already have Feud, and saladin would not take more than 20 turns to research it ,from what I see in my game ). Maces vs pro longbows is doable , but not that easy, and it would put our eco on hold until the end of the war...

You're not the only SS one, I don't know anything about drafting and despise slavery. Despite this, I often win by war...

At least i would let saladin try a stab in the AP and in shrining his capital.... those 2 items would make conquest far more profitable

Agree. But we should be ready to take him down if he is too slow.

In my experience, the AI prefers Scientists over Priests except when production is needed.

Give his island is mostly production tiles, it's doubtful he'll ever run a Priest, so even "one" might be generous.

Yeah, agree. Although the AI has some weird preferences. It seems to enjoy priests for gold aswell, and since his land is poor, we might see that happening...

My experience is Enginners< - Priests <-spies ( gotta hate that constant spy assignment... hey , if I wanted to run a EE you, would had noticed it Mr Governor ).... this means that maybe mecca has been running a Priest for a while. I would bet in a GP in Arabia until 500 AD

Agree on the spy point, SO annoying!

He's not a wonder hog ,but clearly has a spot for religious wonders in his heart. I bet he'll try the AP...

Me too.

Either we take a hit expanding militarily or via peaceful expansion ... either way, we're gonna take a hit.

Definately. Taking the hit early means lots of good time afterwards (if we can prevent Joao from REXxing our ***es off).

I'll put it this way then. According to the info screen:

futurehermit has 12 CPT from Saladin
Bleys has 22 CPT from Saladin and João
OTAKUjbski has 31 CPT from Saladin and Suleiman
Vale has 19 CPT from Saladin

You're concluding that the loss of the foreign trade route is the net loss, when you're not factoring in the replacement of that route with an internal route.

No, he's not. He is merely telling you that the two people with foreign traderoutes are the ones with the largest income from trade...

Try loading all saves and then closing borders with Sal, and compare...

@ Otaku, that sounds good to me.

For War, I would prefer my own save. For Peace, probably Otaku's. I prefer going to war of course.

For War: FutureHermit
For Peace: OTAKUjbski

I will remain neutral concerning war or peace unless I am tiebreaker.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

... if we can get our hands on his cities, we have free access to the other islands, enough hinduists to secure us as a candidate of the AP, and an AI less on our hands.

João founded/adopted Buddhism and is the AI most likely to prioritize Theology. Louis XIV might also be likely since he doesn't have a religion and is IND, but then the AP would be Christian.

Moral of the story: if we conquer Saladin now, the AP will NOT be Hindu unless WE build it.

Free access to the next land, independant of Sals' mood?

That's a moot issue. Saladin is ridiculously easy to keep Pleased and has 100% peace probability at Pleased⁺.

But the big problem is not that we doesn't need his land ...

That in itself is reason not to go to war yet. We don't need his land or resources. We do need the other land and its resources.

Is that he does.

Another moot point, because the same can be said for any AI. Plus, his land is crap ... it's not like he's going to run away with the game or anything.

We want him out, don't we?

We do? Last I checked, this game can be won without fighting any wars.

He is a potential threat, and will be hard to dispatch after longbows.

Not when those Longbows are defending against Cannon.

We won't really gain anything from letting him live. Conclusion: !

We don't gain much from not letting him live, either. In fact, I think we'll gain more by letting him live a little longer.

Still, in the long run, wiping him will be beneficial.

As will settling peacefully all around him.

As stated above, though, your save is biased against peace, which might be a handicap when considering the BB.

What!?

By that logic, it sounds like the best way to ensure a good best ball candidate is to play without a goal.

Sounds stupid, IMO.

Personally, I think seeing a save heavily geared towards a specific goal is a benefit -- not a handicap!

that's.. wicked... 11 times Pacals' strength???

In Pacal's defense, he was my 2nd target in the early AD's and Capitulated with only a handful of satellite island cities.

Am I the only one who has never drafted? Only time I used Nat was when I needed happiness in a warmonger game, and I didn't use draft...

Hence why such an immense Power rating comes as an to you.

I think the common misconception with Nationhood is that not every city continually drafts. In fact, I probably only draft every city once or twice the whole game.

The city that gets drafted is the Globe Theatre city ... every ... single ... turn!

(In that game, Drafting was something like +3 for 628 Turns, lol.)

Definately. Taking the hit early means lots of good time afterwards (if we can prevent Joao from REXxing our ***es off).

One more reason why I like keeping Saladin alive -- because his expansion should keep João mostly at bay.

When I go to war, I'd rather it be against KK or João -- at which point Saladin would be a buffer and possibly a war partner.

 

[Bleys]

I can't agree with this argument... "if"s are part of the concept. If I had not gotten the Gold event, I would have been considerably worse off, if Suleiman had not spawned Ramesses, I might have a shot at Colossus, etc...

Those were fluke events though, the fact that I have not traded techs yet is not an "if" its a "when".

I have been thinking a lot about one of the real difficulties of this format, and thats the "need to repeat" factor. Since we took Rolo's save, I needed to re-tech both Masonry and Polytheism to accomplish my goals. Now, if we take futures save, I will need to rebuild some forges, a barracks, and a Wonder. Now, there is a certain "I never have too" factor that goes along with this, for example, I would not have teched Meditation in my own game, but since Rolo had it, I will "never" have to tech or trade it, so there is some return benefit. However, I think I need to make some adjustments to my own style of play, because if I constantly waste time going back and re-doing things the way I like them, I will be behind every save.

 

[Diamondeye]

Soory for being tough on you OTAKU, I was merely defending my arguments as to why I had not chosen your save as preferred. I was wrong

Your points are very good, and, well, I am here to learn something. I sure will .

So, preference is OTAKUs for peace, FutureHermits for war, and I am still only tiebreaker.

Let's hope I get to learn something about drafting this round

 

[Diamondeye]

Those were fluke events though, the fact that I have not traded techs yet is not an "if" its a "when".

I have been thinking a lot about one of the real difficulties of this format, and thats the "need to repeat" factor. Since we took Rolo's save, I needed to re-tech both Masonry and Polytheism to accomplish my goals. Now, if we take futures save, I will need to rebuild some forges, a barracks, and a Wonder. Now, there is a certain "I never have too" factor that goes along with this, for example, I would not have teched Meditation in my own game, but since Rolo had it, I will "never" have to tech or trade it, so there is some return benefit. However, I think I need to make some adjustments to my own style of play, because if I constantly waste time going back and re-doing things the way I like them, I will be behind every save.

Hmmm. Look at it this way: If you pursue a copy of your own save, you will be off worse no matter what sae is chosen, for as long as it is not yours. If the majority decides to play, per example, OTAKUs save this round, how about trying to fit your style into that situation instead of trying to fit the situation to suit your style? I believe this series will be dependant upon such flexibility.

That said, another argument for peace, merely presenting raw facts:
1) Saladin is good at surviving attacks (PRO)
2) Bismarck is not a good rusher (no help from traits or uniques)
3) Rushing is complicated by water between civs
4) We have better land than Saladin, thus defeating him will become gradually easier as we get ahead of him in tech.

 

[Bleys]

If the majority decides to play, per example, OTAKUs save this round, how about trying to fit your style into that situation instead of trying to fit the situation to suit your style?

Thats why I chose OTAKs actually, his early move into a new land, extensive exploration, and wonder-spam in his capitol is very much like my style. If we arent going to war, Forges are less beneficial, since whipping will likely be needed less (which is as it should be, once we are in HR, we want growth, not slaves). I dont mind peace, I just mind having an AI in between our 2 sets of land. However, that being said, if we maintain peace with Sal, he will also put cities on that new land, which will open up trade routes from our other cities, that only have internal ones.

I still like taking down Sal though, and my save to do it.

 

[futurehermit]

Bismarck is not a good rusher, but Maces vs. pre-longbow units is gg. I prefer to attack when the opportunity presents itself. Outteching and then mopping up is of course an option, but that involves ifs and buts and maybes to a certain extent whereas if we hit maces and Sal doesn't have longbows, we WILL crush him = 1 less AI.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I've just been downloading all the saves from this round (so as to give you guys a little independent analysis/call you all idiots for picking the wrong save) and three things have occurred to me:

1) A naming convention for save games would be good.

At the moment some players are leaving the name as Monarchist Cookbook Game 1 AD-0010, while others are changing the name to include their own name and/or which round it is. I renamed the saves myself this time (and in round 1), but it would be most helpful if everyone named their saves in the same way.

Might I suggest that in future rounds we use the convention [Game] [Round] [Player] [Date] (eg. MC1 Round3 WinstonHughes AD-0700).

2) Maybe it's tinfoil hat time again, but I can't see Diamondeye's save.

3) With reference to OTAKUjbski's voting idea, I'm not clear about how you actually mean to choose the save. Do you choose war or peace first, based on the 1st choices, and then see which 'war' or 'peace' save has the most votes in that category? (So if a majority vote 'peace', and OTAKU's save has the most 'peace' votes, then his save is best ball?).

hehe, anally retentive, paranoid and confused all in one post! The quality of my contributions may not be increasing, but at least I'm getting more efficient about it.

 

[Bleys]

Bismarck is not a good rusher, but Maces vs. pre-longbow units is gg. I prefer to attack when the opportunity presents itself. Outteching and then mopping up is of course an option, but that involves ifs and buts and maybes to a certain extent whereas if we hit maces and Sal doesn't have longbows, we WILL crush him = 1 less AI.

I agree, and honestly, if I KNEW I was getting a GE (Machinery) or GM (most of CS after I tech Monarchy and trade for Alpha) in 6 turns, I take my save, if I KNEW I wasnt (and getting a GP instead, which wouldnt be horrible, just not as useful at the moment), I would take futures. He can still build the Colossus (I rechecked, forge is close to done, Unit-whipoverflow will help, Cats are great for that, and another settler as well to stop growth). Heck, I think even Future might pick mine if I was 80+% to get a GE for Machinery.

I also agree with Winston on the naming thing. First thing I do when I load my new save it change the name, re-save, and re-start the game to generate a new Autolog. I like "MC 1 Bismark Bleys" <year>. Simple, I dont even really need the "Bismark" part, MC 1 tells the us the leader, the year tells us the round, and my name in between tells us who played it. I also changed all the saves I checked to MC 1 OTAK 0010 AD, or whoevers save it was.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

... if we hit maces and Sal doesn't have longbows, we WILL crush him = 1 less AI.

And what happens if he does have longbows by then?

There's a chance Sal will have Feudalism by the time we build enough Galleys, Maces and Catapults to mount an invasion.

If that happens, GG ... we will have wasted an entire turn building units we can't effectively utilize.

I think this is my main reason I support peaceful expansion -- there are fewer obstacles and a higher probability of success.

3) With reference to OTAKUjbski's voting idea, I'm not clear about how you actually mean to choose the save. Do you choose war or peace first, based on the 1st choices, and then see which 'war' or 'peace' save has the most votes in that category? (So if a majority vote 'peace', and OTAKU's save has the most 'peace' votes, then his save is best ball?).

I was thinking of it as kinda like 3 votes. The first vote is the strategy vote of "war" or "peace". The second is for which save best supports that preferred strategy. The third is for which save best supports the other strategy.

Regardless of which save gets the most individual votes, if the majority of people vote "war", then the best "war save" is chosen. On the contrary, if more people vote for "peace", then the best "peace save" is chosen.

Again, it's the initial vote of "war vs peace" that matters most ... the amount of votes each individual save receives is only then relevant after determining war vs peace.

 

[Diamondeye]

Bismarck is not a good rusher, but Maces vs. pre-longbow units is gg. I prefer to attack when the opportunity presents itself. Outteching and then mopping up is of course an option, but that involves ifs and buts and maybes to a certain extent whereas if we hit maces and Sal doesn't have longbows, we WILL crush him = 1 less AI.

Agree. I can play both peace and war save, and I have nothing against crushing Sal if the situation is fit for it. The problem is, as OTAKU points out, that we dont know if the situation will still be there when we have units enough.

I've just been downloading all the saves from this round (so as to give you guys a little independent analysis/call you all idiots for picking the wrong save) and three things have occurred to me:

1) A naming convention for save games would be good.

At the moment some players are leaving the name as Monarchist Cookbook Game 1 AD-0010, while others are changing the name to include their own name and/or which round it is. I renamed the saves myself this time (and in round 1), but it would be most helpful if everyone named their saves in the same way.

Might I suggest that in future rounds we use the convention [Game] [Round] [Player] [Date] (eg. MC1 Round3 WinstonHughes AD-0700).

Good idea. Do people agree on this? I will add it to OP once I am clear nobody hates the idea

2) Maybe it's tinfoil hat time again, but I can't see Diamondeye's save.

It was at the bottom of my loooooong post on the top of this page.

3) With reference to OTAKUjbski's voting idea, I'm not clear about how you actually mean to choose the save. Do you choose war or peace first, based on the 1st choices, and then see which 'war' or 'peace' save has the most votes in that category? (So if a majority vote 'peace', and OTAKU's save has the most 'peace' votes, then his save is best ball?).

hehe, anally retentive, paranoid and confused all in one post! The quality of my contributions may not be increasing, but at least I'm getting more efficient about it.

That was way I thought of the system, atleast. It sounds good to me taht way.

And what happens if he does have longbows by then?

There's a chance Sal will have Feudalism by the time we build enough Galleys, Maces and Catapults to mount an invasion.

If that happens, GG ... we will have wasted an entire turn building units we can't effectively utilize.

I think this is my main reason I support peaceful expansion -- there are fewer obstacles and a higher probability of success.

I was thinking of it as kinda like 3 votes. The first vote is the strategy vote of "war" or "peace". The second is for which save best supports that preferred strategy. The third is for which save best supports the other strategy.

Regardless of which save gets the most individual votes, if the majority of people vote "war", then the best "war save" is chosen. On the contrary, if more people vote for "peace", then the best "peace save" is chosen.

Again, it's the initial vote of "war vs peace" that matters most ... the amount of votes each individual save receives is only then relevant after determining war vs peace.

Exactly.

 

[futurehermit]

In my game Sal doesn't have Monarchy yet, let alone feudalism, and I'm one tech from maces. The question then comes down to being able to produce the units in time. All we really have to do is sack his capital before his feudalism hits home.

And, is anything really lost gearing up for war? If Saladin hits feudalism, perhaps Joao won't have it yet and we can hit him instead. He's not very far away from us either.

If, ultimately, we gear up for war and the nearby world hits longbows then, at worst, we have a bit more of a dogfight on our hands. Instead of tackling protective Saladin we could take on no-military-advantages-at-all Joao. And I am confident we would win, even facing longbows. Meanwhile, Saladin continues to expand and we crush him during the renaissance. Saladin can't tech so he is just building an empire for us.

If we expand peacefully, we gain more land = good. The distance maintenance is higher and GLH only helps us on the coast, not inland (though we could go for the Forb Palace). We secure more territory, but our empire is strung out and if we ARE attacked it is much harder to reinforce across such a vast distance.

 

[vale]

Joao is far enough away that I haven't met him yet in my game. And I've got the entire big island explored. A war that far away involves building a much larger navy and more travel time which means we would never accurately be able to judge whether or not we would be seeing Longbows. Also, I thought the whole point of the war against Saladin was to avoid an empire that is cut in two by Saladin. So the point of the stated Joao fallback plan is what exactly?

 

[futurehermit]

As far as I can remember Joao is mostly N of us. I may have to check exactly where he is, but my memory told me that he is reasonably close to us (not as close as Saladin). All I'm saying is that if we happen to have a large army and navy and Saladin suddenly hits feudalism and hunkers down then we *could* decide to sail on to easier prey. Or, we could always produce more units and have a dogfight with Saladin, which I'm not opposed to either. This is after all monarch and not Immortal/Deity

 

[Bleys]

In my game, Jaoa has a city on the big continent already, and I believe I met one of Tokus settlers.

As a result, Sal settled Damascus further SE, instead of straight across the channel (his Damascus in some games is actually a hut guarded by a Barb Archer in my game, and I only had 2 warriors and a scout over there, so I couldnt take it)

Sal also does not have Monarchy in my save either, and I cannot find his Jewish Holy City, but he is in OR, so he MAY actually have Monarch and just not be able to change civics because he may have just went into OR a few turns ago, I cant tell, I cant check my own log without crashing with BUG, LOL.

 

[Nares]

Sal also does not have Monarchy in my save either, and I cannot find his Jewish Holy City, but he is in OR, so he MAY actually have Monarch and just not be able to change civics because he may have just went into OR a few turns ago, I cant tell

Haven't you had an espionage lead on him the whole game?

Have you made any attempt to track his tech path at all?

Sal's sitting between 3-5 cities in each game. This has a very real effect on his ability to research, but also on his production capacity, as well as how any war may progress.

It may be worth taking a save featuring a weak Saladin, even if the player's position is weaker, should the decision be made to war with Saladin. Bleys' save would actually be perfect for this.

Any war with Joao will be a near failure. He's far further to the northeast than you expect, futurehermit. The one city he planted near Toku in Bleys' game (IIRC) is a freak occurrence, and isn't even overly close to his starting position.

Diamondeye, I don't know why you brought up the trade route issue again. I know Bleys hates to hear this, but I'm sitting on the most foreign trade routes (9) (OTAKU has 8), and am tied with futurehermit for the most trade routes overall (24 foreign + domestic). I don't know who else has Compass, but I'm poised to build multiple harbors and convert more of my domestic routes into foreign routes.

The only reason it is an issue for those players is that they've left themselves exposed as such. Declaring war on Saladin would be a major blow to their economy. It would be far less severe to mine, and I'm even getting more out of trade routes than they are.

I keep bringing it up because it is pertinent. My approach, from my own save or r_rolo1's, would be to settle my cities as I did, making little or no effort at wonders (Colossus is the only one I'd even care for). I want to maximize my trade route income now, not only before any war that might impact it, but also because now is when that extra net 5cpt or whatever those sites are providing on initial founding is actually worth something. I'm also set to develop them earlier, which means I'll have the infrastructure in place sooner, which means I'll be growing them using pure grassland cottages and coastal tiles sooner.

My moment was not whipping out harbors as soon as Compass came in. You want to talk about padding numbers? I'd be sitting on far more foreign trade routes than anyone else, and I'd still be in a stronger position should I go to war with Saladin. This has little to do with the save I used, and everything to do with the approach I took.

I still think the best approach at the moment is to build a tech lead and take out Saladin. I'm interested to see where OTAKU's save might lead, because I know Suleiman and Joao will rapidly pull away in the next round, but I don't know that REX around Saladin can keep up for more than a round.

But OTAKU's, like futurehermit's game from the first round, while being a different an intriguing approach, is a committed approach. For the same reasons futurehermit's was discounted in the first round, I think OTAKU's should be discounted here.

Which, to be honest, really only leaves r_rolo1's save, though I still haven't seen Diamondeye's. Vale's is the top choice of non-roster saves, but I understand you still want to go with roster players' saves.

And I still haven't seen any response regarding the highest production site on marble island. I know the save I played had no bearing on settling that site. Was I the only one to notice it? Were you all that convinced that settling on the marble was a good idea, or that settling on the eastern half of the island would ever be worthwhile given it's abysmal food situation?