Mongolia

I'd assume just added to Khan, the same way that MoV has Colonia. No Civ has just a unique GP improvement.

Not sure if Citadel itself needs to be improved though. I like the idea of being able to pop a GG for a Golden Age that was in some mod or other.
 
Instead of Ger? Or added to UA?
Meant as an ability for the Khan, just on top of already existing UB/UA. Maybe slightly higher yields and more tiles grabbed when built or something along those lines?
 
So I really like the idea of giving the Khan a unique improvement and it's been occupying my thoughts for a while. Now, I generally don't find individual tier lists to be that useful, but I do see a common trend that people seem to rate Mongolia very highly, which I agree with. As such, I wouldn't want to significantly buff their general play. Simply gaining an efficient tile improvement definitely fits that criteria, regardless of what yields it provides. I also wouldn't want it to occupy the same space as Merchant tiles, or reduce the tile acquisition, as they're both unique and interesting in their own right. Rather, I would like to lean into the land grabbing nature of Citadels and the aggressively expansionist nature of Mongolia (both thematically and gameplay wise) while leaving it as a niche benefit that shouldn't automatically increase their general effectiveness.


To that end:

Double the tile acquisition radius of Citadels, now named Ortoo
When occupied by a military unit, Ortoo provide their yields to the closest owned city without being worked by a citizen.


The idea is to encourage players to aggressively steal land from their neighbours. Currently, the only way to encroach significantly into other player's territory is to either wait until Autocracy's Lebensraum policy, or tear down Citadels so you can place a new one adjacent to the old one. Tearing down Citadels feels particularly distasteful as you're removing what is supposed to be the source of your power projection which allows you to control more land... so you can control more land.

Increasing the acquisition range allows you to keep the Ortoo intact, which loosely fits the historical idea of it being a way station and continuous chain of power projection. Providing yields outside of traditionally workable tile range gives a bonus, and thus incentive to land grab even without resources in range, while also not directly competing with any existing tile improvements. The requirement to occupy the tile with a unit ensures an opportunity cost while fitting with the thematic idea of maintaining a military presence in frontier outposts. Finally, because the yields are only "free" when out of citizen range, the player should not feel compelled to land grab areas where settling a city is desirable/possible.

Thoughts?
 
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So I really like the idea of giving the Khan a unique improvement and it's been occupying my thoughts for a while. Now, I generally don't find individual tier lists to be that useful, but I do see a common trend that people seem to rate Mongolia very highly, which I agree with. As such, I wouldn't want to significantly buff their general play. Simply gaining an efficient tile improvement definitely fits that criteria, regardless of what yields it provides. I also wouldn't want it to occupy the same space as Merchant tiles, or reduce the tile acquisition, as they're both unique and interesting in their own right. Rather, I would like to lean into the land grabbing nature of Citadels and the aggressively expansionist nature of Mongolia (both thematically and gameplay wise) while leaving it as a niche benefit that shouldn't automatically increase their general effectiveness.


To that end:

Double the tile acquisition radius of Citadels, now named Ortoo
When occupied by a military unit, Ortoo provide their yields to the closest owned city without being worked by a citizen.


The idea is to encourage players to aggressively steal land from their neighbours. Currently, the only way to encroach significantly into other player's territory is to either wait until Autocracy's Lebensraum policy, or tear down Citadels so you can place a new one adjacent to the old one. Tearing down Citadels feels particularly distasteful as you're removing what is supposed to be the source of your power projection which allows you to control more land... so you can control more land.

Increasing the acquisition range allows you to keep the Ortoo intact, which loosely fits the historical idea of it being a way station and continuous chain of power projection. Providing yields outside of traditionally workable tile range gives a bonus, and thus incentive to land grab even without resources in range, while also not directly competing with any existing tile improvements. The requirement to occupy the tile with a unit ensures an opportunity cost while fitting with the thematic idea of maintaining a military presence in frontier outposts. Finally, because the yields are only "free" when out of citizen range, the player should not feel compelled to land grab areas where settling a city is desirable/possible.

Thoughts?
Sounds unnecessarily powerful.
 
Sounds unnecessarily powerful.
Which aspect? I interpreted your suggestion for grabbing more tiles as a radius increase. Were you thinking more of a Shoshone settling style where it just grabbed a few extra tiles instead? I could get behind that. Less guaranteed ability to beeline through their territory.

If it's the bonus yields, I personally would expect that to be more niche and less powerful than standard bonus yields on the improvement. God knows I'd love to just surround my capitol with Encampment 2.0s rather than needing to garrison far flung tiles next to now angry neighbours.
 
Or an alternative: Khan count as a military unit and can intimidate City-States as well with his army besides him.
 
Or an alternative: Khan count as a military unit and can intimidate City-States as well with his army besides him.
Is it doable? As a military unit we won't be able to stack GG anymore. And there is still the thing with promotions.

As 8bitBot said, Mongolia is already powerful, so a change should come with a cost. It would be nice to have all its uniques at hand. Right now I can only remember that it has a GG that heals and faster mounted units.
 
Is it doable? As a military unit we won't be able to stack GG anymore. And there is still the thing with promotions.

As 8bitBot said, Mongolia is already powerful, so a change should come with a cost. It would be nice to have all its uniques at hand. Right now I can only remember that it has a GG that heals and faster mounted units.

I didn't say is a military unit, but counts as a military unit when intimidating city-states.


If not clear enough: Khan is still a Unique Great General but has a mechanic that allows him to be counted as a military unit to give him intimidation points toward City-States.
 
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Double acquisition radius is already on an ideological tenant (and raises the scary question of what happens if you get both at once). Maybe make it so that Khan doesn't need Open Borders and pop a Citadel in enemy territory as long as you own one adjacent tile instead, similar to the way it works in Vanilla?

The ability to get yields from a tile without working it via a military unit stationed would be neat if it's easily implemented.
 
Khan is good, only the Ger is meh if you think about it, but the UA of Mongols is awesome imho and they hardly need buffs. If we're to be serious, I wouldn't give R2D2 more than +1Food/+2Food compared to Citadel because Mongols do not feel like they need anything. Is there even a model somebody made for that Ortoo thingamajig to use? If there is, then giving Mongols that is a fine idea.


Little known secret - if you build many Gers, you become Germany and can build Hanses and Panzers on top of other Mongolian Uniques. You can't buff Mongols, they're already two civs in one. Three, even, if you consider Finland.
 
Which aspect? I interpreted your suggestion for grabbing more tiles as a radius increase. Were you thinking more of a Shoshone settling style where it just grabbed a few extra tiles instead? I could get behind that. Less guaranteed ability to beeline through their territory.

If it's the bonus yields, I personally would expect that to be more niche and less powerful than standard bonus yields on the improvement. God knows I'd love to just surround my capitol with Encampment 2.0s rather than needing to garrison far flung tiles next to now angry neighbours.
The combination of both. Double tile acquisition, assuming you mean one extra circle, means 12 more tiles, that's 300% of the value you get from a citadel. On top of that getting yields from a tile without actually working it just sounds weird to me.
 
I'd assume just added to Khan, the same way that MoV has Colonia. No Civ has just a unique GP improvement.

Not sure if Citadel itself needs to be improved though. I like the idea of being able to pop a GG for a Golden Age that was in some mod or other.
... I'm pretty sure popping GG for a Golden Age was vanilla not a mod.
 
The combination of both. Double tile acquisition, assuming you mean one extra circle, means 12 more tiles, that's 300% of the value you get from a citadel. On top of that getting yields from a tile without actually working it just sounds weird to me.
With Lebensraum it seems massive.
For even borders: 1 circle = 2 tiles, 2 circles = 7 tiles, 3 circles = 15 tiles.
For a prominence: 1 circle = 4 tiles, 2 circles = 11 tiles, 3 circles = 21 tiles.
The first circle triples the tile adquisition. The second circle doubles last tile adquisition. That seems too much.
 
I would just give Khan's a special citadel that produces extra food and production, almost as strong as regular great person tiles, so that you can happily use them just a resource booster if you have enough for your army (basically its own Colonia)

Giving khan's 2 tiles is rather clearly broken, if you wanted to continuously encroach land you could just let them place citadels next to each other.
 
I would just give Khan's a special citadel that produces extra food and production, almost as strong as regular great person tiles, so that you can happily use them just a resource booster if you have enough for your army (basically its own Colonia)

Giving khan's 2 tiles is rather clearly broken, if you wanted to continuously encroach land you could just let them place citadels next to each other.
2 tiles seems unreasonable. I had hoped that making it grab a few extra tiles was possible, but it probably isn't (and even if it is, I guess it would be way too random). Maybe increase it's defensive capabilities some other way, possibly one of the following:
Higher defensive bonus
Extra healing to units on the tile (and adjacent?)
Higher damage to adjacent enemies
Citadel damage to adjacent enemies got higher range
Weakens nearby enemy units (like an elephant or so)


An increased defensive capability along with some bonus yields, less than a Colonia, probably slightly less than a normal great tile improvement but definitely more than a normal citadel.
 
I'd rather just see some better use for excess generals across the board - IIRC Mongolia doesn't even have any bonus to great general generation while there are other civs that pile up tons of great generals that they really have no use for. Khans are already fantastic, it's just that once you've got one or two then they're just the same as other great generals where popping them is usually meh. That's really a topic moreso for another thread, but the general sentiment just seems to be "after your first couple GGs, getting a GG is kindof a non-event" which, again, isn't a Mongolia thing in my mind.
 
1. Why do you want to boost one of the best civs in the game?
2. Why do you want to give citadel boost to (more or less) nomadic nation?
I was going to say exactly this. Although what Meticulous says is true. Once you have 2-3 GG, the rest are just for the GPTI. Citadels have been upgraded recently, though.

If the Khan is going to be stronger, it should be less of them, to balance. They could be faster, or give +10% extra CS to friendly units, or reach farther, and need 50% more GG points to generate.
 
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