Mongolia

LukaSlovenia29 said:
Playing on immortal against Mongolia in a few recent games gave me the impression that the force-CS-to-surrender leads to snowballing, once the first CS falls, it gets easier and easier for Genghis to bully the rest with each new that falls. Seems a tad OP at the moment. Perhaps implementing a cool-down period of 50 or so turns between annexation of CSs and allowing Mongolia to demand "regular" heavy tribute otherwise?
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Pro-tip: Shoot him in the face if it's bothering you. He's just saving the CS's for you to liberate and ally.
 
I would, but in my current game he's all the way across the map with several AIs between us, some of which have deemed more prudent to declare war on my empire as opposed to Genghis (can't blame them:)). And he started gobbling up CS's very early, I think I saw the first notification around turn 80. Sometimes it's hard (at least for me) to stop Genghis from snowballing via early CS bullying.
 
LukaSlovenia29 said:
I would, but in my current game he's all the way across the map with several AIs between us, some of which have deemed more prudent to declare war on my empire as opposed to Genghis (can't blame them:)). And he started gobbling up CS's very early, I think I saw the first notification around turn 80. Sometimes it's hard (at least for me) to stop Genghis from snowballing via early CS bullying.
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He'll be very unhappy, and - even if they aren't attacking now - he'll have a hard time making friends due to warmonger threat.

G
 
True, but with the snowballing, he won't really need friends that much. As for his unhappiness, it seems quite manageable for the AI on immortal, and he won't have such an unhappiness problems if he found just a few of his cities and then goes bullying, because he won't have many undeveloped cities, but most of his empire will consist of former CS with a good infrastructure, CS-unique-luxuries etc.

But if the AI testing games don't show him to be OP, then I'm okay with Mongolia remaining unchanged, I can always ensure Genghis is not in the game.
 
LukaSlovenia29 said:
True, but with the snowballing, he won't really need friends that much. As for his unhappiness, it seems quite manageable for the AI on immortal, and he won't have such an unhappiness problems if he found just a few of his cities and then goes bullying, because he won't have many undeveloped cities, but most of his empire will consist of former CS with a good infrastructure, CS-unique-luxuries etc.

But if the AI testing games don't show him to be OP, then I'm okay with Mongolia remaining unchanged, I can always ensure Genghis is not in the game.
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Genghis _usually_ does well, but not always. Truth be told only a handful of civs consistently underperform, and even then I'll go to balance them and suddenly they've gobbled up an entire continent and are in the lead. So eh.
 
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I can only try to imagine how hard it must be to try to balance civs so that AI doesn't over or underperform consistently. Thanks again for the efforts and great work!
 
I was very happy to see Mongolia get stomped by Portugal of all civs in my last game. I have seen him go on big winning streaks but in general I think he is fine. The AI doesn't use the extra movement skirmishers that well.
 
Gazebo said:
Genghis _usually_ does well, but not always. Truth be told only a handful of civs consistently underperform, and even then I'll go to balance them and suddenly they've gobbled up an entire continent and are in the lead. So eh.
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Korea,Morocco,egypt,siam consistently hit rock bottom when played by AI.
 
Mongol AI in deity is just too strong. In all of my games, he will always leading score(double from 2nd scoreleader). The only case he cannot snowball is if there is no CS at all nearby him, but that rarely happened.

I suggested some tweak for his UA.

1. Increase AI resistance to surrender (especially if CS has pledge of protection and strong allies/friends)
2. Cooldown after annexing (maybe around 20 turns)
3. Destroyed some infrastructure upon annexing
(I am not sure how Mongol annex works, but I supposed all building retain, since there is no war)
 
peterw1987 said:
(I am not sure how Mongol annex works, but I supposed all building retain, since there is no war)
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It does lose buildings. Its treated the same as if you conquered the city via war.

I also find Mongolia a problem on high difficulties. He gets to annex city states too quickly
 
Saying that "Mongolia's too strong because I have a hard time against them on Deity" seems... unsporting to me. That aside, Mongolia pre 3/7 wasn't dominant on Immortal, and I haven't even noticed them on Emperor since. Wouldn't a nerf make them sub-par for both humans and the AI on all the other levels?
 
With deity unit bonus, mongol can almost immediately annex one cs before medieval without war, which lead to gaining all current cs military unit, which lead to stronger military and easier to annex next cs.

Or maybe the problem is CS military too weak or does not scale well difficulty wise on deity?

Maybe other option is to make CS military a bit on stronger side, although maybe it will hurt player that usually demand tribute. I never ask for tribute myself.
 
One thing to remember about Mongolia is that one of the times the AI gets special bonuses is every time they Win a War. And I know merchantizing with Venice counts as 'winning a war,' so I assume the Mongol UA does as well, which on Deity possibly means a ton of bonuses.

vyyt said:
I'd say the pledge of protection should be somehow accounted for.
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It does count some, like -15 or something.
 
pandasnail said:
One thing to remember about Mongolia is that one of the times the AI gets special bonuses is every time they Win a War. And I know merchantizing with Venice counts as 'winning a war,' so I assume the Mongol UA does as well, which on Deity possibly means a ton of bonuses.



It does count some, like -15 or something.
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This would make a lot of sense. I wondered how exactly just annexing those cities put him so far ahead, my experience as human Mongolia is you want to consider waiting to scoop them all up.

In my experience, on immortal, he is able to very easily annex, even if you have a pledge of protection. The only hope you really have is that he never meets the CS, I can recall him annexing 2 the turn he met them in a recent game
 
(Playing on immortal)

I'd prefer if the UA was made more manageable to prevent/defend against. I dislike the elements of VP that have no real counterplay/prevention, especially ones that so significantly impact the game. In this sense, I find the Mongolian UA one of the least balanced. I'd prefer if they instead got some UA more connected to actually having to fight, not just benefiting from having a big military.

As long as it remains, I'd want the pledge to protect being more detrimental to the Mongolian UA, at least by having a much higher value. I'd also prefer if EACH pledge to protect was worth something separately when calculating whether it's possible to annex. I'd also prefer if the value of the pledge was correlated to the strength of the army of the pledger(word?).

Also, I'd want the "annex" to be the same as conquering a city (no free units etc.).
 
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