Mongolia

[Vhozite]

Is there some kind of indicator you’re getting the extra yields from heavy tributes? In my current game my tribute yields seem kinda mediocre, to the point where it seems not worth it.

Other thoughts using Mongolia for the first time:

Khan UU: Thematically I guess it’s nice but it’s super boring to use.The extra movement is ok but extra healing feels out of place and not very exciting. Would it be too strong if it allowed units to move and heal to take better advantage of superior mobility? Perhaps limit it to cavalry?

Extra moves/ignore ZOC ranged horses: Mongolia’s real UU, and imo the only thing currently that makes them worth using. It’s makes them hit and run gods of the battlefield and insane reach when combined with roads.

Tbh I think the Mongols are missing something. So far everything that isn’t their super ranged horses feels extremely underwhelming. I also find it extremely rare that they do much of anything as an AI...Temujin is almost always on the lower end of the scoreboard in my games.

 

[azum4roll]

Mongolia AI always does well in my games, but lacks the final push to win the game, like most warmongers.

 

[pineappledan]

So I really like the idea of giving the Khan a unique improvement and it's been occupying my thoughts for a while. Now, I generally don't find individual tier lists to be that useful, but I do see a common trend that people seem to rate Mongolia very highly, which I agree with. As such, I wouldn't want to significantly buff their general play. Simply gaining an efficient tile improvement definitely fits that criteria, regardless of what yields it provides. I also wouldn't want it to occupy the same space as Merchant tiles, or reduce the tile acquisition, as they're both unique and interesting in their own right. Rather, I would like to lean into the land grabbing nature of Citadels and the aggressively expansionist nature of Mongolia (both thematically and gameplay wise) while leaving it as a niche benefit that shouldn't automatically increase their general effectiveness.

To that end:
Double the tile acquisition radius of Citadels, now named Ortoo
When occupied by a military unit, Ortoo provide their yields to the closest owned city without being worked by a citizen.

The idea is to encourage players to aggressively steal land from their neighbours. Currently, the only way to encroach significantly into other player's territory is to either wait until Autocracy's Lebensraum policy, or tear down Citadels so you can place a new one adjacent to the old one. Tearing down Citadels feels particularly distasteful as you're removing what is supposed to be the source of your power projection which allows you to control more land... so you can control more land.

Increasing the acquisition range allows you to keep the Ortoo intact, which loosely fits the historical idea of it being a way station and continuous chain of power projection. Providing yields outside of traditionally workable tile range gives a bonus, and thus incentive to land grab even without resources in range, while also not directly competing with any existing tile improvements. The requirement to occupy the tile with a unit ensures an opportunity cost while fitting with the thematic idea of maintaining a military presence in frontier outposts. Finally, because the yields are only "free" when out of citizen range, the player should not feel compelled to land grab areas where settling a city is desirable/possible.

Thoughts?

Huge necro here.
I really like the idea of adding a unique GPTI to the Khan. As people said, it would really create some nice flavor for the extra khans that you get, because right now Mongolia doesn't have an additional, unique thing for having more than 1-2 Khans over a normal GG, since their citadels are the same.

I have been doing a lot of thinking about the skirmisher unit and how I would rework them, and that bleeds into how I would change Mongolia, since his UA revolves around the skirmisher line.

Skirmisher unit change: has 5 base moves, low RCS (highly mobile, low damage, harassment, scouting, and disruption role).
Skirmisher doctrine change: loses +/- % in open/rough terrain. gives large bonus to defense against ranged attacks (necessary, because their base RCS is low, so they would melt vs other ranged units otherwise)

Mongol changes:
UA: Mongol Terror

• +100% yields from bullying City-States (loses Ignores Alliance and Protection penalties when bullying)
• Skirmisher line units have +1 Attack (loses +2 moves and ZOC bonus)

UGG: Khan

• Can build Ordu unique tile improvement
• Cannot build Citadels
• In addition to current bonuses (+movement and medic), acts as mobile citadel: deals 15 damage to all adjacent enemy units each turn.

UGPTI: Ordu

• Can be built on any land tile not adjacent to another Ordu (same as citadel)
• Can be built adjacent to friendly territory. Claims adjacent tiles (same as citadel)
• 1 (vs 1 from citadel)
• Gains yields from techs/policies/wonders the same as Citadels and other UIs The only difference is that techs that give citadels Science (Chemistry & Stealth) give Ordus Culture instead.
• 50% tile Defense (same as fort), no Damage to adjacent enemy units
• Units that move onto an Ordu gain +1Movement that turn.

UB: Ger Unchanged

Zulu Changes:

• Military is 50% more effective at intimidating City-States and Ignores Alliance and Protection penalties when bullying (loses +25% yields from bullying City-States)

All of this is possible using existing code.

• Mongols would get a side-grade to the citadel that prioritizes movement instead of static defense.
  • A Khan stacked on an Ordu functions as a citadel at half power, but Mongols get to take the citadel with them wherever they go.
  • It would be possible for the Khan to make both Ordus adn Citadels, but that seems harder for the AI, and you would not be able to put the border blob on the Ordu in that case, because one improvement wouldn't block the other from being built adjacent, and you could chain them to steal land
  • This also brings up an interesting ability, which is by giving them a different tile improvement, Mongolia can plant Ordus next to conquered citadels
• addresses issue of Khans not doing anything different from a GG after you have the 1-3 needed for your army, and are expending extra ones for citadels.
• mobile citadel ability on Khan helps differentiate it more from the Assyrian siege tower, which also give medic bonuses.
• Reinforces Mongolia's mobile aggression while taking away some turtling capacity, which works with their nomadic culture.
  • A side-grade, rather than a pure upgrade, addresses people's concerns about a unique citadel being too major a buff to Mongols
• Max movement for skirmisher units still capped at 6 (7 with Parthian tactics. concerns about AI not being able to take advantage of so much movement).
• Unstacks Mongol's UA from Parthian tactics promotion (the ZOC bonus is currently redundant)
• Unstacks the bullying bonuses that Mongolia and Zulu receive, Zulu makes tributing easier (and indirectly worth more), and Mongolia just gives a flat modifier. Zulu would no longer share a bonus with Mongolia at 1/4 the power.

 

[randomnub]

I like it, except the part where the khan gains the citadel dmg aura. I can foresee myself never ever planting a Khan but simply stacking them (same tile, or adjacent if you somehow block stacking) and passively chew through enemy armies. Pilum on steroids, and it's not very thematic nor balanced for a civilian unit.

 

[pineappledan]

If per turn damage is able to be stacked from any source then I agree that part should be scrapped. I don't think they do though.

At least for improvements, damage on turn only counts the highest value and doesn't stack from multiple sources. This is why Shoshone can't deal 10 damage to a unit next to 2 different encampments, or do 35 damage to one next to an encampment and a citadel.
We would have to verify the unitpromotion table works the same, but I'm pretty sure it uses the same code to apply damage as the improvements, so the same rules for both.

If they do stack then a khan inside a conquered citadel could deal 45 damage to adjacent enemy units, and that's unacceptable.

The proposal to give Khans the mobile citadel bonus is mainly there because a) it's possible and b) to mitigate the loss of the static bonus of a citadel with a bonus of the same kind. But, if it's unnecessary then Khan could just remain as is.

 

[randomnub]

It's also very player friendly, AI is pretty bad with siege towers an khans (*cough* and scythe chariots *cough*) already.

 

[stii]

I think it is fine. Sure it is better for the player but that applies to lots of things. The combat AI is good enough that it will be rare that your khans are 100% safe if you are getting hits in with them and it is only 15. Main use I can see is sieging down cities and hitting the one inside a city for 15

 

[KaoticKanine]

UA: Mongol Terror

• +100% yields from bullying City-States (loses Ignores Alliance and Protection penalties when bullying)
• Skirmisher line units have +1 Attack (loses +2 moves and ZOC bonus)

Not gonna lie, if Mongolia's UA is to be changed again (not saying it should, but if), I think it would be meaningful to have city razing be involved. Cause that's what gave the Mongols their fearsome reputation; that they would and very well could completely obliterate entire cities, only leaving survivors to then tell others of their might, which made them all too willing to surrender to the Mongols rather than put up a fight

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Agreed. I'd change the UA to make city-razing by Mongols irreversible (you couldn't stop it once you started it, unless the city was recaptured), but each turn of razing would give you lots of yields (which it currently does not) and war score (more than the current amount).

 

[KaoticKanine]

Not sure if I'd have city razing provide yields, since that combined with the +100% tribute yields would probably be excessive. But absolute "Yes" to increased war score! Not only useful in gameplay to get bigger and better peace deals (if not make the other civs afraid of Temujin) but highly thematic with Mongolian tactics. Another idea I've always thought is perhaps that razing cities makes nearby City-States completely afraid of Mongolia, ensuring that Mongolia can earn tribute even with max Alliances and Pledges going on, and also evoking the "making cities surrender" irl Mongolia was famous for (even if, in this case, you cannot annex cities by tribute).

 

[pineappledan]

Y’all are just describing my Timurids mod.

 

[KaoticKanine]

Y’all are just describing my Timurids mod.

Oh I rarely play with custom civs, so I was not aware. Although, the Timurid's razing bonuses are different from the ones we speculated for Mongolia (well, okay, LifeOfBrian suggested Yields for razing, but I focused more on War Score and instant Afraid status to nearby CS')

 

[pineappledan]

I like it, except the part where the khan gains the citadel dmg aura. I can foresee myself never ever planting a Khan but simply stacking them (same tile, or adjacent if you somehow block stacking) and passively chew through enemy armies. Pilum on steroids, and it's not very thematic nor balanced for a civilian unit.

I decided to reduce the damage per turn to 10. Nice symmetry with the 10 hp heal on adjacent.

I also think this actually should be easier for the AI. Now the khan gives a benefit if both friendly and enemy units are adjacent, so the placement is even more flexible.

I just tested it and can confirm that damage each turn only takes the highest damage and multiple sources do not stack. So, if you have an encampment (5 damage) and a Khan (10 damage) that both give damage per turn to adjacent units, the enemy unit only takes 10 damage.

 

[pineappledan]

I have made a mod for the unique Mongol citadel replacement (and the UA changes). You can try it out here

 

[Stalker0]

Its been a while since I faced Mongolia in its natural element (aka heavy skimisher time). Holy crap I forgot how scary they are.

Move 6 heavy skirmishers that can go anywhere they want. I'm getting creamed. Even in this thick swatch of jungle, sure my knights get in a good hit, but then his horde of skirmishers just kills them, and then slinks back into the shadows. And you cannot retreat from them, if your wounded in the open your just dead.

Its a good civ!