MOO1 Humans Average Difficulty

[metatron]

So...
...i had asked Harv for the start save to play along. Originally i planned to do a full report on that in a seperate thread (Harv and i had a short PM exchange about that).
But i decided to this here for three reasons:

1) There are some things where i felt i made the more correct choice, but on the bottom line i think Harv played overall better and with more precision.
2) Doing a full report would be, you know, work ( i have like 700 screenshots and am awfully tempted by that delete button). And this way i can forgoe many things that you guys already know and focus on the comparison aspect of it all.
3) I had some considerable luck mid game (we'll get to that) that all but automatically won me the game. And past that point my level of play dropped to an abyssmal low and the game is plain not interesting anymore anyway.

So here we go.
I'll stay considerably behind Harv in reporting, cause i use the forum's upload function and could theoretically spoil Harv's game with the thumb-nails (presuming some super-human eyesight).

2300 - 2354
(@Harv: This spoiler is save for you to open. I'm pretty sure there's nothing in it that you don't know.)

Spoiler :

So i did my best to pretend not to know things i already knew. The initial moves are pretty intuitive anyway. I sent my scouts for white and green, built a scout turn 1 and sent it to white, sent my colony ship for green once it was scouted (i didn't wait for the scouting information on blue, because, well, screw blue stars! and what are the chances that it's better than 95t?).

I built only that one extra scout turn one, a 4th one fairly late (like turn 10-ish) and rapidly increased scouting once Sol had a decent factory count.
So initially i only had rudimentary information necessary for planning colonisation, but later i had several times Harv's scout count essentially guarding every relevant system on my western and southern flanks (yup, even the inhabitable one).

I emphasised early research more, completing Improved Eco Restoration before my first Colony Ship was completed in 2332 (Harv had his in 2322!).
This causes a tiny bit of a problem since i targeted Reticuli as my third planet as well and thus needed Hydrogen Fuels Cells, like Harv.
Essentially all this is taking so long that both planets max out (or almost max out) population and lots of potential growth is lost. I'd also build factories on Exis that would be idle later when i send colonists to Reticuli and subsequent colonies.
So what i opted to do was to fully develop Sol (with 180+ factories) and keep it at 90+ population while keeping Exis at a level that makes for good growth (~50) and have all excess population continuously shipped back and forth between both planets.

You can see that here:

This is in 2337, directly before the Colony ship arrives (9 turns later than Harv's).
At his point i have 69 pop "in the air" (and roughly 150 on the two planets).

So i have some serious catching up to do, which i manage to execute ok-ish-ly:

Harv|metatron
Exis 06|Exis 05
Reticuli 28|Reticuli 37
Zoctan 39|Zoctan 44
Aquilae 47|Nitzer 44
Nitzer 51|Aquilae 50
Ukko 52|Ukko 51

Ok. So there are 4 significant differences.
The most important one first:
Harv's choice to rush the early colony ship was probably correct and his opening superior to mine. I barerly managed to draw even, while abandoning much of my tech lead over Harv. And i had luck. I hit Eco resoration at 24% or something, 2 turns before my ballpark expectation value. I had those two turns to spare in "the plan" but none the less this came with about 90 saved rp and some additional production in those two turns (interest on Exis is negligible cause i was already abndoning factory construction there).
The other differences:
- I have vastly more scouts. I have like 14 or something in 2337 and that count had risen to 22 by 2350. This is of minor significance. Harv could have easily afforded 10 extra scouts. I tried to play like i usually do here, and usually i would OCD scout coverage on my southern flank here fearing there may be aliens nearby.
-I made use of ship relocation to gain 1 turn on Harv. Not much to say about that. He should just do that.
-After picking up 80% waste at roughly the same time we opted for different paths in propulsion research. Harv went straight for Iridium while i started to research Deuterium first (I vant zat Arid!).

Anywho, i completed Deuterium in 50 or 51 or something and made contact with the Mrrshans.
I immedietly sign a trade deal but no non-aggression pact (they can't reach me and i want to maintain the lock my scouts have on the border systems).
My Mrrshans don't have any planetology research (no Barrens for me) but class 2 deflectors instead and the Hydrogen and Hyper-V Harv's have too (i didn't trade anything at that point).

So in 2354 i have the same colonies Harv has:


But i'm still lagging in economic development:
At this point Harv has 349 pop (+33 in the air) and 512 factories which are iirc all active. I have 339 pop (+14 in the air) and 460 factories, 22 of which are idle right now, as you can see. Particularly Harv's Reticuli is vastly better developed and will soon contribute significantly to imperial affairs like research, while mine derps along.

However i have some compensation for that:
I can make use of the Deuterium while Harv is working on that Iridium (which i have started but don't really pursue right now) and i am already taking my first single digit die rolls on that +20 Terraforming (which Harv has barely invested in at that point).
On the other hand Harv has already some points in the non-economic tech fields and has completed Deep Space Scanner. I have virtually nothing in that department.
Then again i already have a Colony Ship on it's way to Cygni (via Nitzer), which should arrive in 2357 (or 58?). The first time i'm ahead in colonising stuff. But i paid roughly 700 rp for it that are essentially wasted in the long run, so it's not necessarily an advantage.

So we are roughly tied, with Harv probably being slightly ahead. Of course the fact that he recieved no punishment for the lackluster scouting whatsoever didn't exactly help me.

I'd include a 2354 map, but that would contain some (incredibly minor) information Harv possibly does not have already.

Oh, btw, i am playing version 1.4. I don't have the faintest idea whether that makes any significant difference.

Edit:
The thing about the Colony Ship reloc is not true.
For reasons i have Harv having built the Colony ship in 22 (23 is correct) in my funny notes here.
I have no idea why. My bad.

 

[Harv]

The other differences:
- I have vastly more scouts. I have like 14 or something in 2337 and that count had risen to 22 by 2350. This is of minor significance. Harv could have easily afforded 10 extra scouts. I tried to play like i usually do here, and usually i would OCD scout coverage on my southern flank here fearing there may be aliens nearby.

You are correct about the scouts. I should have built a lot more a long time ago. Therefore I will run into a problem when the rate of expansion exceeds the rate of exploration. Ironically a negligible amount of BC's would get me those scouts and it can be done in a single turn.

-I made use of ship relocation to gain 1 turn on Harv. Not much to say about that. He should just do that.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Probably I am about to learn something about MOO1 that I did not know about before.

I also notice that you did not colonize the ultra-poor Rana. Previously I was planning to do that and starting research into Propulsion was the thought that came out of sleeping on it.

 

[metatron]

I am not sure what you mean by this. Probably I am about to learn something about MOO1 that I did not know about before.

I tricked myself into multiple stupidities there. The whole misunderstanding is my fault.
I got all the numbers on my funny note sheet messed up.

See, i got the Hydrogen fuel cells after the Colony Ship was completed (and this was planned that way). So i couldn't send it to Reticuli when it popped up at Sol but had to send it to Exis first.
The way from Sol to Exis and then from Exis to Reticuli is 7 turns long (3+4).
So i set up a relocation line from Sol to Exis. This way the Colony Ship made the journey in 6 turns instead of 7.

Now, since i derped it with the numbers i thouht you had not done that. But you probably either did do that or had the fuel cells ready when the Colony Ship was completed.

I'm sorry for the confusion.

 

[Harv]

This turn set takes us up to 2380. It is still looking like a wide open game. We have met the Mrrshan, but not yet the Silicoids or Meklar. They give me borders to the southwest and to the west. However, we have not yet found our border to the southeast.

While I admit to building way too few scout ships, that can be fixed in a single turn. Meanwhile exploration continues at a snails pace.

Spoiler :

2374 Selia


2376 Laan is held by the Mrrshan


2376 Beta Ceti


2378 Kailis

We colonized two more systems.

Spoiler :

2375 Tau Cygni Colonized


2379 Mobas Colonized

This makes us the first to control 13 systems.


The 2377 breakthrough in Propulsion technology will allow us to colonize and settle systems even faster.



We continued our research into Fusion drives.


The Meklar have better ways to conduct their research.



We called up Kitty and doubled the size of our free trade agreement. However, she hung up on us in negotiations for her kitty-litter technology.



This is the closest look we got at their home planet, Fieras.



The map shows where their home system is located.



Meanwhile it looks like they might beat us to colonizing that Size 10 Barren Rich world, Rha. I have been calling it a neutral-zone planet as it is within their range.



Here is a list of our 13 star systems.



And this is our Technology situation.



Regarding the Mrrshan, we have three turns until they arrive at Rha and probably colonize it. I am not too concerned about them grabbing a Size 10 Barren world, even if it is rich. However they are in range of Nitzer and Cygni. Nitzer can put up a missile base or two in a hurry and thus defend itself. I really doubt that Battleship can take out a Missile Base, but Cygni is only just starting to gain in population.

We do have a Non-Aggression Pact with them, but with the Mrrshan being Ruthless, and sensing a weakness and knowing exactly where to strike, that Treaty might be worth little more than the paper it is written on. They might go colonize Rha and sail to Cygni and shoot up all the transport ships trying to colonize it.

I would rather not start building ships, but we might have to put together a fleet to serve as a mobile temporary missile base. I can load the game up and see what kind of missiles fit where.

ADDIT: Large Ship, Fusion Drives, 8 of Hyper-X Missiles for 343BC. 21 Nukes is also an option but that design will lag as shields improve. We cannot fit a reasonable number of Hyper-X Missiles on a Small ship.

Update coming up to 2390 - It looks like it will be tomorrow.

Spoiler :

It looks like the entire right side of the map is wide open, so the game is wide open. There is one more G-Type Star to check out, but it looks like it all belongs to us. We have 16 Colonies and some of them are working their way up to Robotics 3 Factories. The Rich Vega Colony has its full 60 Population and 180 Factories and is producing new Colony Ships.

I think we will just keep colonizing planets until the Galactic Council votes us in and we can chalk this one up in the W Column and move on to the next one.

Sorry about this map.

 

[Harv]

Here is the update up to 2390. It is looking like one of those wide open maps. We still have only one alien contact, but one third of the galaxy.

We explored 7 systems:

Spoiler :

2380 Tao - Fertile planet with a lot of population capacity!


2382 Jinga - Inferno world beyond Mrrshan space


2383 Moorig - Dead world within reach and we can colonize when we get the tech


2385 Esper - Terran world we can colonize


2385 Hyboria - A twin to Moorig


2386 Keeta - Toxic world beyond Mrrshan space


2389 Aurora - small world that can be colonized when we get in range

We colonized 3 systems:

Spoiler :

2381 Rhilus - Tiny world wasted colony ship and will take a long time to develop


2382 Quayal - Deep in our territory


2384 Berel - This one is right in the face of Mrrshan territory

With all this colonizing right next to the Mrrshan, we decided it was time to build some ships. We opted for a Cruiser-sized design with the latest Hyper-X rockets to future-proof them for as long as possible. They will serve as mobile missile bases.



Research continues - We researched Robotic Controls 3 and Class 3 Shields. We did not get the Class 5 Planet Shield, so continued on to Class 4 Shields. The improved controls was a mixed blessing. Since we do not have any industrial technology it means that on new planets we are spending 15BC per factory.

Spoiler :

My count here is showing 16 colonies. We have probably already claimed our share of the 108 star systems and we have a whole bunch of places to send new colony ships.

There is another update coming up to go to 2400.

Spoiler :

We still have only one contact, the Mrrshan, but have seen the ships from all five opponents. They are:

Spoiler :

White - Mrrshan
Green - Silicoids
Purple - Meklar
Red - Sakkra
Yellow - Psilons

 

[Harv]

Here is the update for 2400. 6 worlds colonized. This brings our total to 22.

Spoiler :

2390 Esper - This is on the Mrrshan border but just out of their reach


2394 Iranha - Barren world


2394 Rana - Ultra Poor space filler


2394 Tao - This is the 110 Jungle Fertile paradise


2396 Beta Ceti - On our side of the Human-Mrrshan border


2399 Selia - Poor Resources. Deep in our territory

There are still lots of systems to explore and colonize.

Spoiler :

2390 Thrax


2391 Trax


2391 Xendalla


2393 Zhardan


2394 Neptunus


2396 Dunatis


2397 Incedius


2397 Obaca - Size 35 Barren but it is Ultra-Rich


2398 Xengara

We increased our trade agreement with the Mrrshan to 250 BC.


Our technological development continues. We finally got our improvement in industrial technology, reducing the cost of our factories from 15BC to 2BC. Later we developed equipment for landing on Inferno worlds. Since there are a couple of dead and inferno worlds right next door, we will make immediate use of them.

Spoiler :

2392 Industrial Tech 8




2398 Controlled Inferno Environment

Here is a quick look at our technological situation:


Projects are as follows:
Computers - Improved Space Scanner, Level 13
Construction - Automated Repair Units, Level 14
Force Fields - Class 4 Shield, Level 14
Planetology - Soil Enrichment, Level 16
Propulsion - Fusion Drive, Level 18
Weapons - Mass Driver, Level 13

In our travels, we have encountered two more races.

The Sakkra


And the Psilons


Here is a map of our situation, along with all the races we have seen:


So basically because of the way the map rolled, it looks like we are going to get one third of the galaxy without any competition. We will keep settling worlds until we run out of worlds to settle. This will probably trigger a galactic council. I am hopeful about making a run at Orion before this happens.

Year 2400 - 22 Planets, 65 Trade, 3304 BC.

We should be very soon in contact with the other races.

 

[Harv]

Here is the finale.....

The year 2400 saw a breakthrough in Construction technology. We went on to research in Zortrium Armor.


The Mrrshan called looking for an alliance, but we decided we were independent enough to work on our own. We certainly did not need their Colony Ships grabbing our systems.


The Silicoids colonized Keeta, bringing us into contact. We promptly signed a Free Trade Agreement and a Non-Aggression Pact.




Year 2402: We colonized three more systems.







This triggered the Galactic Council.....





The votes were tallied......
8 Meklar (Meklar)
5 Abstain (Sakkra)
32 Human (15 Human, 5 Mrrshan, 7 Silicoid, 5 Psilon)









Just like this 'bot says.....


It was either a quick end, or drag it out and keep getting more epic and powerful and maybe getting Orion and finally voting ourselves in with a super majority.

Any suggestions what next? I can jump to a Hard-level game so that we start with the 40 population everybody is used to rather than 50 population. If I do that, I should use a solid race, so would go with the Psilons. Otherwise I can work with the Cats or the Birds at Average.

 

[Darza]

Play impossible with klackons, then psilons then sakkras etc, by increasing of the difficlulty. Average is of use only for get a game interface, and im pretty sure you very good with it already.

 

[Harv]

You might be right. I just finished up a "hard" game with the Klackons. At 2400 we had about 30 colonies, and we won by controlling a two-thirds majority of the votes in 2450.

Huge Galaxy -1 Difficulty
Opponents Human, Alkari, Bulrathi, Mrrshan, Darlok. No Silicoids. No Psilons. No Problem. -1 Difficulty

Technology only got into the high 20's.

Diplomacy was interesting. Between the Darloks and us spying and framing, each player had two or three wars going on. By pounding one opponent we had two others wanting peace.

I think Klackons are easiest to play with. The production bonus is king. Next would be the Psilons.

 

[civvver]

Yeah that's what I dislike about humans, games are over super quick cus everyone votes for you, or they drag out all the way to the end, no middle ground.

I would go impossible klackons to get a feel for it. Then maybe try the meklar, interesting race to play, high potential production, no bonuses really otherwise. So do you try to max factories right away or expand? Decisions, decisions.

 

[Harv]

What is nice about putting this up on the forum is you get different opinions on what is best.

To answer the question about factories and colony ships, I have been in the habit of building approximately half the factories needed to fill the planet. My bias is to build the colony ships sooner rather than later.

At the start of the game, a factory costs 10BC and produces 1BC, half of which is lost to pollution. So the return on investment is 5% and a payback period of 20 years.

So basically I count the number of colony ships that I will be building before researching the next level of fuel cells. If I can build all of those colony ships in 20 years, then I will build them. Otherwise I will build more factories.

The research will take a less predictable amount of time to accomplish. Also, getting Hydrogen or Deuterium might have a big impact on how future expansion goes.

Of course, I have not yet tested this on Impossible setting.

 

[Darza]

Well, actually in such determined games as 2 MOO's there is not much options actually. You build GDP leaning to exponential growth as long as you can \ untill you reach the production to build task fleet for that certain opportunity window and end the game. The fact is what you can play wrong and bad (more correctly "suboptimal", as ofc "too bad" wouldnt work eventually, depending on "too" value), but weak AI still would let you win - is slightly other story.

 

[civvver]

I've been messing around with different size maps and difficulties. Here's what I find to be the hard parts and easy parts of each.

Sticking with klackons so we can only take into account the difference in difficulties and map sizes, small with 5 opponents on impossible is really hard. The problem is you usually get ganged up on by multiple opponents. Small is only 24 planets I believe so divided up evenly each race would get 4. 3-5 planets is plenty to win here, 3 100 pop Terran planets with your production is more than enough as long as some AI doesn't run away with a dozen or so, but whenever I get to that 3rd planet I always have bulrathi or alkari or silicoids or sakkara transporting troops non stop to my freshly colonized planet. There's not much you can do to stop them either- the level 1 tech ships don't shoot down enough transports and bases cost too much to get up and running that early. You need like 5 bases to take down all the transports and enemy ships with just nuclear missiles. If you are very lucky and manage to get the first scatter packs and/or planetary shield V you can survive. But this typically doesn't happen for me. Then usually if you do survive everyone is mad at you cus they keep forcing fights with you and then a vote happens and they all vote for the 2nd guy and you end up in a feud and it's a really tough game.

I downgraded to average just to see how much difference small map was making and same thing happened, I got to 4 planets, but because of the decreased difficulty I was able to get planetary shields and adequate missile bases up and survived. Rest of the galaxy united, I ended up in feud and had to research teleporters plus neutronium bombs and make death squads to kill them all.

Switch to a huge map, impossible difficulty. I find the game is quite easy if the enemy don't unite. I guess I don't really know how to prevent this from happening. If you end up with basically two factions to keep the vote in check you are fine. In a large galaxy though it's pretty tough to get 1/3rd of the population before a couple votes. My current game I'm just turning the corner on some pretty useful tech, soil enrichment, robotic controls 5, about to get some weapons to go invading, but the rest of the galaxy is angry with my expansion and united so now we're fueding. I think I can still win, I have over a dozen planets and 2nd most population but now it's going to be a very long game.

So in general, small is extremely hard, larger maps much easier though some luck is involved with the voting. I think I would like to revisit small impossible with a more war like race, maybe alkaris and send ships with nuclear bombs to kill enemy planets. The lvl 1 bases can't really hit them.

 

[Harv]

This was quite some time ago, but I rolled up a Human game at Hard and found myself in the bottom left corner. The first planet was a sweet find: Size 105 Terran. Everything else was out of Hydrogen Fuel Cell Range.

So I worked on climbing the tech tree. No Deuterium fuel cells with is all I need for expansion. Nuclear Engines - no Irridium. Sub-Light Drives - No Dotomite. How far up the tech tree do we need to go?

I suppose we can just keep going up the Propulsion tree until we hit something and then we will have some incredible range. How far can we get with just two planets at around turn 50?

EDIT: Hmm. It looks like in that case, the Nuclear Engines cost 1000RP and the Dotomite Crystals would have cost 6860RP if I had access to them. A Huge Colony Ship with the extended fuel tanks would cost around 1800 BC - less than the Irridium Fuel cells would have cost and far less than the Dotomite Crystals. So in the situation where I do not have access to Deuterium Fuel Cells and I run out of expansion room, I would do well to just build a Huge Colony Ship with extended fuel tanks and colonize something within 7 parcecs that might be strategically placed well enough to open up the expansion lanes.

With that said, I might just do well to try the start again and see how much the setback really slows down the initial expansion.

EDIT 2: Upon further experimentation, it looks like Construction Tech 8 is all that is really needed to fit Extended Fuel Tanks and Standard Colony Base on a Large Ship. A little bit of Planetology is also required, but not much, maybe Level 3.