[MoO] MOO2: What is an optimal Guardian fleet

[Murky]

Anyone have thoughts on the best fast-guardian kill race?

One of the challenges is avoiding being spy-raped for all the techs. This makes a traditional fast-techer like DemoLith more than slightly foolhardy. You can do it with a race like that, but you might have to pray you DON'T get XArmor, because once the AI has XArmor Loknar is not nearly as effective.

I tend to think that the best options are Aqua/Creative or Aqua/Unified, with the remaining stuff being research boosts... LHW+AHW is always a good start.
Not the best research races, but offering a balanced approach without a spy penalty.

Production races are the fastest. They can expanded quickly and can build more research buildings in less time. The best of the production races is unification, tolerant and production+1, large hw, repulsive, -20 ship defense, -10 ground. Unifiction is +50% food and production, and no moral penalty. It also gives +15 spy defense. Tolerant increases the population limit because it treats all worlds as terran, and it elminates having to worry about pollution. Production+1 has good synergy with tolerant and unification. Another good one us unification, aquatic, lrhw and prod+2.

 

[vmxa]

Puzzling, I always thought that:

Neutron Blaster+Tractor Beam+Troop Pods, is the best way to snatch AI´s techs.

Probably is, but I prefer more guns to kill more ships and faster. If I get any of their tech it will be from stealing or invading.

It looks like you play Creative otherwise you would be nuts to have Troop Pods and pass up Battle Pods. I prefer the Scanner to the Blaster.

Tractor Beams are the least desired choice in that group, but you can take it. I prefer the Generator as it is a major boost to any planets with gravitational problems.

Again, if you are playing creative, then you do not have to make choices. It is probably not a lot of fun to always be creative, so choice are going to have to be made.

 

[TheArchduke]

Probably is, but I prefer more guns to kill more ships and faster. If I get any of their tech it will be from stealing or invading.

It looks like you play Creative otherwise you would be nuts to have Troop Pods and pass up Battle Pods. I prefer the Scanner to the Blaster.

Tractor Beams are the least desired choice in that group, but you can take it. I prefer the Generator as it is a major boost to any planets with gravitational problems.

Again, if you are playing creative, then you do not have to make choices. It is probably not a lot of fun to always be creative, so choice are going to have to be made.

Creative is imo, broken. Imo, it should give a certain percentage of making a breakthrough, not give every research field.

It really depends though, the tractor beam/neutron blaster can also be done by assault boats(no idea what the english term is) and you can always trade for the grav generator. I personally like to capture ships.

 

[Murky]

Creative is fun but not nearly as good as unitolprod1. Creative makes for a good battle-oriented race but it develops too slow to be competitive.

 

[vmxa]

If you think creative is broken, then you have to realize that trading is utterly broken. I do not allow any trade deals as it is just too big an advantage for the human.

I also think the leader is fun, but is too useful, so I play as replusive. Hence no trades or alliances or any of that stuff and leaders are less available. You rarely get the good ones.

Last time I was not replusive I got such strong leaders it ruined the game.

 

[TheArchduke]

Creative is broken, because it saves you several early game headaches.

Like, research labs and computers being in the same tech group.

Or the worst case Missile Base and Automated Factories.

But thinking about it, maybe any race which is created by the player is too strong for the game.

 

[Murky]

Creative is broken, because it saves you several early game headaches.

Like, research labs and computers being in the same tech group.

Or the worst case Missile Base and Automated Factories.

But thinking about it, maybe any race which is created by the player is too strong for the game.

Unless you are playing against other players.

 

[knigh+]

I don't think creative is broken. I think it is actually a very poor pick and waste of points. There are so many ways to acquire tech from the opponents in the game, and all of them get wasted when you take creative. (I never pick repulsive or spying penalty either)

If you want a broken pick, it is Telepath. It gives 4 different useful bonuses for (6picks) : +10spy (3 picks), +25diplomacy (1.5 picks), instant assimilation (lets say 0.5 picks) and the mind control (1 pick of 6 is left here, but it is ridiculously overpowered, gives you an indirect production bonus and insanely accelerates conquest. You can take an entire empire, with all buildings and colonists intact, in a few turns.)

Troop pods are useless in a Tractor+Neutron Blaster ship, as the opponent doesn't have any troops. So you always take Battle Pods. (If the enemy uses NB as well, then you just kill rather than capture) Actually I find this type of ship to be so useful that later in the game it first becomes Tractor+DeathRay, then finally Transporters+DeathRay. I find Assault Transports to be inefficient.

Here is my favorite race: Klackon picture, Unification, Telepath, -Growth, -Attack, -Defense, -Ground, Rich, Artifacts, Charismatic. I always start prewarp, I guess you can replace the homeworld picks with more useful things for advanced starts. Unification+Telepath gives a respectable +10 / +25 to spies/agents. Also Telepath's instant assimilation removes the assimilation penalty of Unification. I repeatedly beat the the impossible huge galaxy 8 players with this.

 

[TheArchduke]

Artifacts strike me as very, very useless as most research will be done by buildings, and for +3 points you get +1 research on EVERY planet and not 2+ on your inital one. And -Growth is a huge killer imo.

 

[knigh+]

Artifacts strike me as very, very useless as most research will be done by buildings, and for +3 points you get +1 research on EVERY planet and not 2+ on your inital one. And -Growth is a huge killer imo.

Exactly my point, research is done by buildings. The only time I use scientists is at the beginning in the home planet. Well, or if I find a UPoor-Artifacts world, or at the end after I have guaranteed victory and picking the remaining few techs - but these are not important. So for my style of play Artifacts is better than Research+1 if I start prewarp.

Growth can be remedied by conquest and cloning center (which is what, 2nd tech of biology). You also can purchase a colonist for a few hundred production points (finding new colony).

 

[Kadence]

Creative is not close to broken, in fact it's too expensive.

A uni-tol production race is far superior to a creative race in almost every way.

Everyone says Creative is almost suicide on multiplayer, but I don't play multiplayer. However even if you try Creative vs. uni-tol or some other unification production race on single player, you'll see that you win significantly easier and quicker with the production race.

I don't think creative is broken. I think it is actually a very poor pick and waste of points.

Totally agree.

Troop pods are useless in a Tractor+Neutron Blaster ship, as the opponent doesn't have any troops.

Good point.

Here is my favorite race: Klackon picture, Unification, Telepath, -Growth, -Attack, -Defense, -Ground, Rich, Artifacts, Charismatic.

I'm not sure about Telepath being good, I don't remember ever trying it. But I'm certainly not fond of Rich homeworld or Artifacts homeworld--they're mainly a waste, because your homeworld is going to be your food center for most of the early game (unless you're playing a map heavy on aquatic planets). Both are basically a waste unless you also have Large homeworld and/or Lithovore, IMO.

And you definitely do not want both Rich and Artifacts on the same planet.

 

[vmxa]

Telel can be so easy. I cannot find my last run of more than a year ago, but I have some logs of games the were elimination of all race in 26 turns on small impossible, 76 on large.

It gets boring on large maps after about turn 50.

 

[TheArchduke]

But I'm certainly not fond of Rich homeworld or Artifacts homeworld--they're mainly a waste, because your homeworld is going to be your food center for most of the early game (unless you're playing a map heavy on aquatic planets). Both are basically a waste unless you also have Large homeworld and/or Lithovore, IMO.

And you definitely do not want both Rich and Artifacts on the same planet.

Exactly, your main planet is your food centre, par the the luxury of finding a new terran or natives planet.

But with prewarp, Artifacts could pay off.

 

[knigh+]

Exactly, your main planet is your food centre, par the the luxury of finding a new terran or natives planet.

But with prewarp, Artifacts could pay off.

My main planet is not the food center. That is where I make use of -Growth. And I don't even research cloning center, for the same reason (I trade for it later once I have a few farmable planets).

Every new colony builds Hydrofarm after Autofac. That way each produces 1 extra food. By the time they grow out of it, I will have colonized a planet with natives, or a poor terran planet. I rarely have more than 3-4 farmers on the first planet. Both artifacts and rich are useful as these propel your start several turns ahead. After a while I simply ignore the artifacts.

 

[TheArchduke]

My main planet is not the food center. That is where I make use of -Growth. And I don't even research cloning center, for the same reason (I trade for it later once I have a few farmable planets).

Every new colony builds Hydrofarm after Autofac. That way each produces 1 extra food. By the time they grow out of it, I will have colonized a planet with natives, or a poor terran planet. I rarely have more than 3-4 farmers on the first planet. Both artifacts and rich are useful as these propel your start several turns ahead. After a while I simply ignore the artifacts.

Hydrofarms eat 2 BC...

Whilst Biospheres add 2 Farmers who can farm for 4 food on your homeworld (6 with soil enrichement) and they PAY BC. Hydrofarms could only pay off with a Democracy or something else which swims in money. Else it is a major waste of it.

 

[vmxa]

Yup Bio over Hydro every time. Trade is the biggest exploit in the game. You can demand the pants of the AI. You start right off with a demand for tribute and soon move to systems,

It is fun the first few games, but too easy. You don't even need real ships, you can build empty hulls to fool them.

 

[Murky]

And you definitely do not want both Rich and Artifacts on the same planet.

Rich+Arti is great for launching an early attack on an unsupecting opponent. With that combo and a some luck on your side, you can be ready to attack by around turn 90, which is about 10 turns before it's expected. Really nasty if your opponent is playing one of the slower race picks.

 

[Kadence]

If you want a broken pick, it is Telepath. It gives 4 different useful bonuses for (6picks) : +10spy (3 picks), +25diplomacy (1.5 picks), instant assimilation (lets say 0.5 picks) and the mind control (1 pick of 6 is left here, but it is ridiculously overpowered, gives you an indirect production bonus and insanely accelerates conquest. You can take an entire empire, with all buildings and colonists intact, in a few turns.)

I want to thank you for recommending Telepathic, I tried it out and had a lot of fun It really made the game easier in the sense that it was simpler - not having to worry about transports and rebellions and conquered morale penalties and all that.

Telepathic doesn't seem like a great pick in terms of effectiveness, let alone broken, but I'll probably keep playing with it because of the fun factor. Mind Control is very sweet

Rich+Arti is great for launching an early attack on an unsupecting opponent. With that combo and a some luck on your side, you can be ready to attack by around turn 90, which is about 10 turns before it's expected. Really nasty if your opponent is playing one of the slower race picks.

I suppose it could be a decent blitz pick in multiplayer, but even there I doubt it's really a long-term viable thing. The handicap in terms of wasted points on benefits that contradict each other is just too big.

I still say that you should pick either Rich or Artifacts and not both, and if you pick either you should also pick Large HW.

 

[vmxa]

Telepathic doesn't seem like a great pick in terms of effectiveness, let alone broken, but I'll probably keep playing with it because of the fun factor. Mind Control is very sweet

Did you miss the post I made about winning the game in less than 30 turns with Tele and under 80 on a large map. These were by elimination of all races. Try that with any other pick.

 

[TheArchduke]

I want to thank you for recommending Telepathic, I tried it out and had a lot of fun It really made the game easier in the sense that it was simpler - not having to worry about transports and rebellions and conquered morale penalties and all that.

Telepathic doesn't seem like a great pick in terms of effectiveness, let alone broken, but I'll probably keep playing with it because of the fun factor. Mind Control is very sweet

Telephatic is actually quite strong imo. 6 picks is probably to cheap.

With an equally fast or faster fleet then the AI, and given a fleet that can munch starbases, you eat up one AI in 5-6 turns.

So what if you can´t defend your new colonies. The AI can bomb their own mind-controlled citiziens if they want. After taking over a massive 5 system Sakkra Empire with 60 pops scattered over the planets, quadrupling myself, I think Telephatic is very, very viable.