MOO2Civ

[vmxa]

Telepaths and Loknar can control star bases. After the battle they are destroyed. I cannot recall any Battle Stations or star forts being controlled.

 

[vmxa]

I should have asked, does the mod work with Blue Marble and Bug?

 

[Agent327]

MOO2Civ Patch4h can now be downloaded from

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12258

Thanks to Minor Annoyance.

Telepaths and Loknar can control star bases. After the battle they are destroyed. I cannot recall any Battle Stations or star forts being controlled.

Good to know. With the patch starbases cannot be captured (although theoretically starbases can capture defeated units). Loknar, Orion Guardian and Orion haven't been implemented yet.

I should have asked, does the mod work with Blue Marble and Bug?

Any mods which use a custom DLL may not work with another such mod (unless properly merged).

 

[deanej]

Blue Marble probably works, BUG will not unless merged (due to the interface modifications).

 

[Minor Annoyance]

I should have mentioned that I sent the CIV4PromotionInfos.xml I used for testing which includes a promotion with 100% capture. Which would mean with one promotion no ships would ever be destroyed. I didn't set many promotions for it because I didn't want to be presumptuous and design your mod for you.

 

[Agent327]

Blue Marble probably works

Ah, OK. (But what's the point of having Blue Marble with a space map? Or prehaps the question was meant as: Can I play MOO2Civ if I have BUG mod installed?)

I should have mentioned that I sent the CIV4PromotionInfos.xml I used for testing which includes a promotion with 100% capture. Which would mean with one promotion no ships would ever be destroyed. I didn't set many promotions for it because I didn't want to be presumptuous and design your mod for you.

Hm, you didn't mention it was for testing only and yes, I noticed that capture probabibility was set at +100%... which might be a wee bit high. Would 50% be reasonable? Or perhaps 25% with a possible additional 25% with a higher promotion? What do you think? (A question to all MOO2Civ-players, actually.)

 

[vmxa]

That was the question, will the mod work with Bug and Blue Marble. I suspected that Blue Marpe would not have an impacted.

 

[muxec]

Nice mod. It looks like the balance is complete mess right now, but I liked the idea. Are there any changes planed for building/worker balance? Also racial abilities are in need of heavy balancing, or at least it feels so.

BUG: attempting to open civilopedia on scout crashes the game.

 

[Agent327]

Don't know if you're familiar with Master of Orion, but the races as they are now are actually pretty balanced as concerns Civ gameplay vs the original game. Also, I cannot confirm your crash when checking the Civpedia. MOO2Civ is playtested regularly, both solo and for multiplayer on IP connection. But any feedback is welcome, especially on the latest patch.

@vmxa: Well, then deanej's answer is probably on the spot. If you have BUG installed, please report if the mod works OK or not.

Also, MOO2Civ Patchf Full Install is now at 5,100 downloads.

 

[muxec]

I have BUG installed but I installed it so that it is active only when I play vanilla.

Also the amount of micro required is huge compared to original civ4/Moo2. Is it intended?

Another bug (is it for me only?) I need to alt tab out and in to make the UI appear.

100% capture chance added in the patch is just wrong. In Moo2 to capture ships you carried extra marines, module that transports marines upto 12 cells from you, weapons that target enemy engines...

 

[Agent327]

Well, MOO2Civ is a work in progress. The original design is by NCCSavage and patches are the result of cooperative endeavour; I'm aware that micromanagement (especially compared to original MoO) is considerable when you have a thriving empire if you don't employ City Governors. (But just like in MoO, you can leave "City Government" up to Governors, to some extent. I wouldn't recommend it though.) If you have any practical suggestions, I'm all for it. As mentioned, the 100% enemy capture promotion is probably too much, although ofcourse you have to win a battle first and I've come across situations where enemy units simply aren't captured, just destroyed. At any rate, I'm thinking about cutting the percentage down to 50% for the next patch. Don't know about UI; is it essential?

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Currently there are five promotions that would have helped with capture in Moo2.
Ion Pulse Cannon
Neutron Blaster
Achilles Targeting Unit
Race (Elerian, Bulrathi)

Ion Pulse Cannon actually made capturing harder because it often destroyed engines taking the ship with it, but generally in sci-fi it's a disabling weapon. Plus Trained Officers would make sense for better capturing. The thing to keep in mind is how high the capture percent will get with combined promotions. Since they don't add together and are calculated separately, the way to get the effectiveness of them as a group is to multiply the chance of failure of each promotion. So two 20% (or 0.2) capture promotions would each have 0.8 failure and would be 0.64 failure combined. Making the combined success 36%.

I think having the combined capture chance over 50% would not be good. Wars might never end because each side just trades half their units and builds more. Personally I wouldn't have it be more that 40%. This could however make for small individual capture chance on each promotion. If you had one of each promotion I've mentioned that would be five. Which doing the math to keep it under 50% means each would only have 13% chance of capture each. That seems small but since all these promotions already do something else to help it's sort of a bonus anyway so it doesn't matter if it's not too impressive on it's own.

There are four other things that helped capture ships:
Assault Shuttles
Tractor Beam
Trasporters
Troop Pod
The capture chance would get on each pretty small if you added those to the calculation and tried to keep the total low, but since it's so unlikely that more than a few units could get all these promotions together (five is probably all you could expect to get on many units), having one or two super ships for capturing wouldn't be a problem. If you added this last list as promotions they probable wouldn't have other effects than capturing so they should be higher capture % than the ones with other effects.
Lastly since invasion ships seem to be a hybred bomber/troop transport they should have some bonus for capturing from the start, like a free Troop Pod promotion or something. Also I think transporters and Assault Shuttles should be a invasion ship only promotion. Maybe carriers also having assault shuttles.
I made a a excel spread sheet to easily see how they all add up together. Which I'll attach in case anyone else wants to look into that.
I would go with 10% for every promotion in the first list (plus trained officers) that already has other effects, and 15% for any new promotions added from that second list that would only have the one effect of capturing ships.

 

[Agent327]

Hm, I guess someone has been doing their homework. Thx again!

 

[Agent327]

I think having the combined capture chance over 50% would not be good. Wars might never end because each side just trades half their units and builds more. Personally I wouldn't have it be more that 40%.

I'd say even a 40% total capture probability is already quite high. Theoretically you may be correct, but additional playtesting (both solo and MP) has so far shown no inclination towards endless wars. (I do get the impression that warfare has become a bit more dynamic than prior to Patch4h.)

I would go with 10% for every promotion in the first list (plus trained officers) that already has other effects, and 15% for any new promotions added from that second list that would only have the one effect of capturing ships.

I noticed that besides the +100% capture chance with Trained Officers there's an additional +50% chance associated with Neutron Blaster as well. (Also, the Bulrathi already start with a +50% chance to convert defeated units.) Obviously, these numbers are way to high if the initial capture chance equals zero. For now, I'm thinking of a Trained Officers capture probability of +10% (and a halving of the Bulrathi's initial capture chance to +25% or perhaps to +15%; I'm not sure why the Elerians/Mrrshan don't have any initial capture chance... it might be necessary to address that as well. It seems more accurate to assign the latter races a +25% chance, as they are space fighter races, whereas the Bulrathi specialty is ground combat. Then again, to capture enemy vessels you need on-board Marines.)

Another thing to take into consideration is that certain units simply cannot capture enemy units (ground forces, for one) or be captured (like Starbases), and that the number of promotions that can be given to a space ship is, ofcourse, limited.

If other MoO/MOO2Civ players would like to repond to this issue, feel free.

 

[Trajan7]

Game crashes. When I first installed the patch4f and played it, I went directly to the civilopedia in order to get a better understanding of the mod. But once I start reading an article on a unit, and then click on another icon for another unit article, it instantly crashed and immediately went to my desktop screen. There wasn't a black screen or a notice saying the computer encountered a problem. It just "exited"

 

[Minor Annoyance]

...Obviously, these numbers are way to high if the initial capture chance equals zero.

I considered having a base capture chance of 3% or 4% (set in the GlobalDefinesAlt.xml file) since in MoO2 you didn't actually need special equipment to capture ships.

... I'm not sure why the Elerians/Mrrshan don't have any initial capture chance... it might be necessary to address that as well. It seems more accurate to assign the latter races a +25% chance, as they are space fighter races, whereas the Bulrathi specialty is ground combat. Then again, to capture enemy vessels you need on-board Marines.)

In MoO2 there were two ways thing could help capture ships. One was to help disable the ship to get marines on board, the other way was with the actual ground combat calculations done when boarding. In civ the combat is more abstract so I just have them be the same effect. The Bulrathi get more hits and a bonus to the combat roll in ground combat so that would help them with the combat rolls boarding the ship in MoO2, which translates to capture percent in civ. The Elerians had mind control so they could use captured ships right away which for simplicity could just mean more capture chance but I have another idea for them. The Mrrshan have a bonus in ship attack which does not directly affect either disabling a ship or the combat from boarding, which would be represented by increased capture chance. However since the Mrrshan win combat easier and you need to win combat to capture a ship in that way alone they will capture more ships. Also with their free space combat bonus they might have high combat odds where otherwise they would have needed to take a promotion to increase the odds. Which means they can spend that promotion to get something else, like increased capture chance promotions. So indirectly, the Mrrshan do have an advantage in ship capturing.

Another thing to take into consideration is that certain units simply cannot capture enemy units (ground forces, for one) or be captured (like Starbases), and that the number of promotions that can be given to a space ship is, ofcourse, limited.

If other MoO/MOO2Civ players would like to repond to this issue, feel free.

I can make ground units unable to capture. I had an idea of only letting ground units or starbases capture ships if they had the transporters or assault shuttles promotions i.e. ways for a stationary unit to get to a ship without moving itself moving, but that might just be making something complicated because I can.
Regarding the limited number of promotions a unit could be expected to get, I did have that idea of having nation projects that give promotions for free after they're built to have an effect similar to miniaturization in MoO2. I haven't looked into how to do that yet.

I had some things planned but wanted to get the basic capturing code done first so I could get thoughts on them. First was to have ground combat promotions, Phasor Rifle etc. add to city attach as well as defence, add to capture chance, and have them available to invasion ships, possibly also other ships if they had another promotion like troop pods, identifying it as a ship with additional marines that could be equipped with rifles etc. That might unbalance things since battle ships might become better than invasion ships at invading. I still think it would make sense for invasion ships since they seem to be troop transport/bomber ships. Second was create a system to defend against capture. I could just have some of the capture promotions marked as also defencive and reverse the calculation. So if Bulrathi promotion gave 15% capture, then if a Bulrathi ship was defeated and the winning ship succeeded in the capture calculation, then the defeated ship would have a 15% chance of cancelling that from the Bulrathi promotion and just being destroyed. Something like security stations or quantum detonator that would just defend I'd give 20% or something set in GlobalDefinesAlt.xml. If capturing can be countered using the same promotions then there's less danger of capture chance getting too high because it regulates itself. That's another reason I thought of ground combat promotions on ships. Equip the crew with phasor rifles to give defence to capture. Third was about the promotions a captured ship would have. I you capture a ship you've killed the crew and replaced them. So if the captured ship had Trained Officers and a Mrrshan crew trained in light ship tactics, it shouldn't keep those promotion because the crew is dead, you just get the to keep the ship's equipment type promotions. So I'd have the game clear those promotions and if the capturing ship had Bulrathi with squadron tactics then the captured ship copies those crew type promotions, because that's where the new crew came from. I could then do something special for the Elerian. In MoO2 they could use a captured ship right away because of their telepath. That could be because they read the crews mind and know how to pilot the ship, but the more fun way to think of it is they mind control the crew and keep them alive. I could have ships captured by the Elerians not have the crew promotions removed but still copy the Elerian ships crew promotions creating a mixed crew. So when an Elerian ship with trained officers captures a Mrrshan ship with light ship tactics, you'd get a Elerian/Mrrshan crew with trained officers and light ship tactics.
Thoughts?

 

[Agent327]

MOO2Civ Patch4f Full Install is now at 5,200+ downloads.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9532

I considered having a base capture chance of 3% or 4% (set in the GlobalDefinesAlt.xml file) since in MoO2 you didn't actually need special equipment to capture ships.

But you didn't implement it, so initial/base capture chance currently is 0%? (Actually, 3-4% seems quite reasonable, I'd say.)

(As for the rest of your post: Thanks for responding, but before answering I think I'll have to look at it more in detail.)

Also, I still welcome anybody else's thoughts on this.

EDIT: Another issue, somewhat related to the micromanagement mentioned a few posts back, is the research rate, which after turn 100-150, seems to decrease rather than increase. I'm thinking about making the later techs more expensive to research. (An increase in buildings/units cost will not have the intended effect, I fear; once certain systems are fully developed, build cost will drop significantly.)

 

[Agent327]

I can make ground units unable to capture. I had an idea of only letting ground units or starbases capture ships if they had the transporters or assault shuttles promotions i.e. ways for a stationary unit to get to a ship without moving itself moving, but that might just be making something complicated because I can.

I thought ground units (i.e. zero movement units) already couldn't be captured? Starbases should be able to capture ships, but they need to be attacked twice first (to give them a promotion) or they should have this ability from the outset (less desirable for Starbases, but perhaps as an automatic promotion for the Batlletsation/Star Fortress upgrades?).

Regarding the limited number of promotions a unit could be expected to get, I did have that idea of having nation projects that give promotions for free after they're built to have an effect similar to miniaturization in MoO2. I haven't looked into how to do that yet.

Fair enough. (Though it sounds like an interesting idea, worthy of implementation.)

I had some things planned but wanted to get the basic capturing code done first so I could get thoughts on them. First was to have ground combat promotions, Phasor Rifle etc. add to city attach as well as defence, add to capture chance, and have them available to invasion ships, possibly also other ships if they had another promotion like troop pods, identifying it as a ship with additional marines that could be equipped with rifles etc. That might unbalance things since battle ships might become better than invasion ships at invading. I still think it would make sense for invasion ships since they seem to be troop transport/bomber ships.

Invasion Ships get a city/planetary attack bonus, while Battleships have a bombard ability, so once you can build Battleships I'd say a combo of the two types will get best results. (I don't know if I'd agree about unbalancing; if so, it can always be corrected.)

Second was create a system to defend against capture. I could just have some of the capture promotions marked as also defencive and reverse the calculation. So if Bulrathi promotion gave 15% capture, then if a Bulrathi ship was defeated and the winning ship succeeded in the capture calculation, then the defeated ship would have a 15% chance of cancelling that from the Bulrathi promotion and just being destroyed. Something like security stations or quantum detonator that would just defend I'd give 20% or something set in GlobalDefinesAlt.xml. If capturing can be countered using the same promotions then there's less danger of capture chance getting too high because it regulates itself. That's another reason I thought of ground combat promotions on ships. Equip the crew with phasor rifles to give defence to capture. Third was about the promotions a captured ship would have. I you capture a ship you've killed the crew and replaced them. So if the captured ship had Trained Officers and a Mrrshan crew trained in light ship tactics, it shouldn't keep those promotion because the crew is dead, you just get the to keep the ship's equipment type promotions. So I'd have the game clear those promotions and if the capturing ship had Bulrathi with squadron tactics then the captured ship copies those crew type promotions, because that's where the new crew came from. I could then do something special for the Elerian. In MoO2 they could use a captured ship right away because of their telepath. That could be because they read the crews mind and know how to pilot the ship, but the more fun way to think of it is they mind control the crew and keep them alive. I could have ships captured by the Elerians not have the crew promotions removed but still copy the Elerian ships crew promotions creating a mixed crew. So when an Elerian ship with trained officers captures a Mrrshan ship with light ship tactics, you'd get a Elerian/Mrrshan crew with trained officers and light ship tactics.
Thoughts?

I like your line of thinking; I couldn't agree more.

Game crashes. When I first installed the patch4f and played it, I went directly to the civilopedia in order to get a better understanding of the mod. But once I start reading an article on a unit, and then click on another icon for another unit article, it instantly crashed and immediately went to my desktop screen. There wasn't a black screen or a notice saying the computer encountered a problem. It just "exited"

Confirmed: when using the Spiral Galaxy mapscript, clicking on the Invasion Ship entry in the Civpedia gave me a CTD. (Didn't happen with the FF Flatmap, I checked.) I'm not sure what could be causing this, though.

 

[CarpeDiem]

this is dumb of me but i keep finding small downloads, which is the actual big download for 3.17?

 

[Agent327]

MOO2Civ (Patch4f) FULL INSTALL is at:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downlo...o=file&id=9532

(all downloads can be found via post #1)