Moonraker

[FiveRings]

well the settler is meant for the razed fish barb city, it looked like good plan ;-).

the missionaries are in advance to get juda spread for the shrine we planned to build.

as for CH's, they are just to fix economy since the slider is still at 0. I don't really think we should build something before the CH's.

We should maybe think about FP since it will be strong thing right now. Probably some of the German cities will do, Beijing is too south for good FP.

As for the war against Church, I would step in take one city most and wait for counterattack... you could even maybe declare first now and wait for counterattack, kill and progress then.

I think you can take Biz as side step.

Thanks for the clarifications, V!

1. Settler: I think we better postpone settling a bit due to the economy, but if settle, then I'd prefer the place at the East coast, on the NW wine. Please, take a look at it and do tell me if you insist on the Southern coast.
2. Missionaries: I figured it out this morning, and might actually continue to pump those till we cover all our major cities in the ex-German North as using OR in the meantime could be quite helpful, too.
3. FP: I'd suggest to place the FP in Chengdu with the view of later transfer of the capital to the North (after we are ready to get out of Buro), and thus get a better coverage of the whole territory. If we don't plan to move the cap - and there seem to be a lot of good reasons for that, too, besides finishing the game before getting out of Buro - I'd prefer to get the FP in Beijing which we seem to be turning into our wealth city.
4. Very nice war set up. I haven't used it before, and I see two reasons that make me a bit uneasy about it. One is our lack of fleet combined with weak defenders that might provoke surprise attacks in the depth of our territory if Church has a few galleys. The second is the movement of Brittish units through German territory, again combined with our weak defenders. All this comes up in amix of our not knowing Churchill's territory while he knows ours, of course. I'll give it a thought and might be willing to try it, but I think the war weariness might prove - in our situation - a tip in the balance again such subtlety.
5. I agree with your previous posts about using the GSc for an academy in Prague - we might not get other GSc, I guess, if we use Berlin as a GP farm, and I'll keep the GrArt alhough I'm quite willing to join him to Prague.
6. I think it's 1080 when the war with Bis can start, not 1060, and I might leave him settle a second city to get his techs again, if possible. If there isn't too much earning in the former German cities to get back to their motherland, of course...

 

[vranasm]

I wouldn't worry with moving palace. I think the decision was met.

Hmm now I wanted to make a long post about advantages of SP versus corps and then realized that corps are probably BtS thing?
So we will be stuck with SP (meaning no distance maintenance and basically capping maint at 6 gpt?), will have to probably investigate how this late game economies work on Warlords

Will have to review what spot you're talking about. Don't forget there is 1 standing settler in the east on hill with 1st ring improved grass cow.

The lack of scouting is very bad thing, but nothing I could do about.
Good thinking with letting Biz settling city 2, but I think it won't happen, at least not on our continent, but if it happens, then just take the city west from Berlin(?) and let the new junk city be.

Right now not sure if Biz+Church are up to Optics and have caravels, if yes, then well...we have to accept some sea food pillaged.

You have some spears up in Germany that should help with some wandering HA's since they're most dangerous. Hmm maybe worth the check if Church isn't actually at Guilds, then we have to leave some WE's.

You have to understand this war is actually very late war and I would probably never advice you to war in this situation under normal circumstance.

But this is Monarch and the AI shouldn't have super killing stack (I think something around 15 SoD should be expected though), in Warlords the siege can kill (unlike BtS) so we have really 30 units that can kill enemy (in BtS it would be only 1/2 the power).
WE's are reasonably good even against LB's and maces (after some collateral).

Pikes and castles complicate this big time and will be up to you to decide if attack city with castle or not and how to lure enemy in doing stupid things.

I see this war as mostly pillage, kill a city, extort techs war. We can't expect to kill off churchill at this point, we have to just milk a bit the military investment while our economy is recovering and will slowly start to surpass in GNP everyone else. I think we are now number 1 in land (most important pointer) and I think even in food (2nd most important pointer), the production and GNP will come, both basically comes from food and land, we just to have a bit patience.
It will not be killer date for SS, but we should get there.

Let's hope AI from another continent meets us so we finally see how bad the situation really is.

 

[Cam_H]

Sorry for silence - RL got in the way again, but I did read the posts.

My main comment was going to be to put down Cottages on those remaining Grasslands in Prague, then more Scientists.

I am a big fan of keeping the Capital in Prague. I admit that if our Capital was already in Beijing I'd probably be arguing to keep it there! Happy for Berlin to be National Epic.

My inclination is for the Forbidden Palace to go into Hamburg ... esp. if we're heading into England to our north. I'm not especially vehement about Hamburg, but it looks northerly enough to me to be in a valuable spot as we capture northerly English cities.

I'm fine with the Academy in Prague too.

"Defenders?" What are these "Defenders" you refer to???

Neither Churchill nor Bismark have Optics as they haven't got Compass. Both are capable of Guilds with Feudalism and Machinery. Good thing we have all of those promoted War Elephants!

Generally happy with the plan. Best of luck!

 

[vranasm]

Sorry for silence - RL got in the way again, but I did read the posts.

My main comment was going to be to put down Cottages on those remaining Grasslands in Prague, then more Scientists.

This I consider "automatic", I just hadn't enough worker turns, since spreading some roads and farms looks more important.
As for that roading that gems should be bigger prio then last 2 cottages in Prague too, btw

I am a big fan of keeping the Capital in Prague. I admit that if our Capital was already in Beijing I'd probably be arguing to keep it there! Happy for Berlin to be National Epic.

My inclination is for the Forbidden Palace to go into Hamburg ... esp. if we're heading into England to our north. I'm not especially vehement about Hamburg, but it looks northerly enough to me to be in a valuable spot as we capture northerly English cities.

I'm fine with the Academy in Prague too.

All of this is my line of thinking . Great minds think alike?

"Defenders?" What are these "Defenders" you refer to???

Neither Churchill nor Bismark have Optics as they haven't got Compass. Both are capable of Guilds with Feudalism and Machinery. Good thing we have all of those promoted War Elephants!

Generally happy with the plan. Best of luck!

Thanks for some confirmations of my fears ;-).

@FR
If you will be unsure with something don't forget you can stop and we can review the military situation with you.

 

[Cam_H]

Good-o!

One thing re. earlier dialogue - I also lean to the argument to prioritise Courthouses as a general rule. If there's a clear case for 'say' a Forge for whatever reason, then that's fine, but if in doubt and maintenance is >7, consider the Courthouse.

 

[woopdeedoo]

Wow. I like our situation. I have to disagree with V's statement that we won't be able to have a decent war with Churchill. At worst, we could break his back. At best, own the entire continent. I see we have a couple of empty tracts of "so-so" land but once we get Churchill under our thumb, we should consider settling those and really get the economy up and running a little better. Shrine income, cottages and the Gold/Gems would all help. I'd declare on Bis as soon as possible, crush him and then try and steam roll Churchill into submission.

 

[FiveRings]

OK, LLs (lads and lass(es)): then its FP in Hamburg, CHs everywhere, war on Church, and your keeping the fingers crossed...for the early part of the evening.

 

[vranasm]

OK, LLs (lads and lass(es)): then its FP in Hamburg, CHs everywhere, war on Church, and your keeping the fingers crossed...for the early part of the evening.

that's a spirit! I hope you will take a lot of screenshots

 

[FiveRings]

I have played 8 turns. I think that at the moment we are at acritical point, so I'll stop here to have the team -discuss the situation, reach a decision where to go from here, and then continue down the chosen path under the able leadership ofthe next one, Cam, IIRC.

1050 (t0)
Hamburg: switch to FP
Munich: MerchSpec to get culture
Guang: CH whipped
Some minor MM
Paper Research started @ 80% (2t)
Forgot to build the academy in Prague

1060 (t1)
Guang: CH>Lib
Berlin: CH> Colossus
Tolosa settled on V's chosen place>CH
Prague:Academy by GrSc
Brit LB starts to move Northward. I am still worried that we don't have defences in the nearby cities, so wait for the cats to get in place and hope that the LB will come closer.
Moved Jaw's spear to the North

1070 (t2)
PAPER>EDU (18 t @ 20%, ie, -12 gpt)Prague: Forge>UoSank (8t)
Jaw: CH>Forge
Shanghai: Missionary> Missionary
Sent 2 HA towards the LB hoping to get him in the flatlands

1080 AD (t3)
Amst: forge>Missionary
Beijing: forge>market
We are 5MiO, but we lose the Colossus by a half-tun: we could whip it, if it was not anounced that it is bfal
Shanghai whips missionary
Changdu whips forge

1090 (t4)
MC: CH>WE
Shanghai: Missionary>forge
Berlin: starts library after getting $156 fail money
I see German stack including an Axe, a Spear and a Settler going North and I decide that now is the moment:
Calendar (Bismarck has it already) sold to Church for $330 an WAR declared on Church

Amst: switch to Trireme to meet the British one
Changdu: barracks

1100 (t5)
The LB is killed but it costed a HA, the additional benefit is Great General Subutai born in Amsterdam (he goes to Monte Carlo to wait for Edu an build a Military Academy, if K with the team)
I see York and 2 LBs and a Spear. But also walls that look like castle walls.
British trireme sunk by Geneva.
Gergovia settled on the Southeast coast: CH

1110 (t6)
MC: WE>HA
Guang: lib>market (I am overoptimistic at this point)
Bis has researched Compass
Church has Maces (one is already by York
Prague whips Uof Sank
Bibracte whips forge
Hamburg whips FP

1120 (t7)
Prague: Monastery
Bibracte: Barracks
Hamburg: Cat
Mace and Sword that try to sneak behind the front line accompanying a settler get killed at the cost of a phant
York under heavy bambarding

1130 (t8)
MC: HA>WE
Berlin: Lib>NE
Christianity spreads to Geneva (Calvin?)
York is taken. 3 LBs, 1 Pike and 2 HAs killed but 5 cats and a phant are lost.
York looks nice with the shrine and the Angkor in it (screenshot taken)
But where now? Next British city might be easier, but the war costs are enormous, and we are facing castles, Pikes, LBs and Maces. And we don't know Churchill's territory.

From what I see, Ithink that London is to the Northeast, and most of Churhill's cities are in the arctic lands. So, I'd suggest to take the risk and continue with the invasion going Northeast and hoping to get to London.

This would also mean to get onto the whipping of units, esp cats. If we can get peace from Church after taking London or whatever is there, fine. If not, we are in a war of attrition. Or we might try to pillage as suggested by V. My scanty imagination doesn't go further, alas.

Maybe I should have started the invasion earlier, or not at all. But what's done is done, and I think it was in the broad lines of what's been discussed and more or less agreed. One think I should have done a turn earlier, I guess, was to switch to total war.

 

[Cam_H]

FiveRings,

Thanks for the report. I can't look at the game right now, but I'd prefer it if you played on some more turns after everyone's seen where we're at and cast their verdicts on plans for progress. Turnsets are 10-15 turns.

My immediate reaction is that six units lost isn't a bad price to pay at all for what was probably his second best city (with some excellent buildings intact after the battle!). We should be expecting our Catapults to take more losses now that we're tackling Medieval and not Classical Age units.

Anyway - sounds like good progress, and I look forward to downloading the save and checking things out.

 

[FiveRings]

Thanks, Cam! I'd be happy to finish my TS and extend
I lost access to the server after my previous post, so I'll add somemore info now:

I have moved two chariots to the North hoping to use them for reco, but it takes ages to get there from our South... I have also started to road York, and moved some more workers in that direction.

Marble is a priority to get the NE faster. There is a UK LB in the region, controlled - I hope - by a WE of ours. A mount from MC could mop it if it turns more resilient than expected.

I also sent a galley to Churchill's, it will take some time, but might help in the recon and pillageing. Maybe a couple more could well be sent there.

I'm divided on what to do with Bis: his only city is a nice barrier to Churchill, but after the second city - if he finds a place for it, and , to my disappointment, we might not be able to help there, that was one of the goals of the war with Church, - I am tempted to try to get Philo from him.

 

[vranasm]

I agree with Cam you should play 8 more turns, but give me time to comment on situation and give you pointers, I will look at the save tonight I promise (can't check the save now).

The attrition was expected, no worries there. We buy for our 30 outdated units new cities, that's fine.

Was there any sign of Church's SoD? Have we Sentry HA in front? things I have to check.

We have to scout out while healing in York. I would wait for the counterattack or scouting out enemy SoD before we proceed with attacking next city.

We have much bigger production potential.

We got hindu shrine that's great news and we got rid of Chicken Pizza -D), should make waring a bit easier.

I would bet that good cities are north-west from the York and agree with the thoughts that most of the Church's land will be tundra...

Don't forget to kill off Bismarck too ;-)

 

[FiveRings]

Thanks, V! I still feel very nervous, and I start to trust those who say that uncertainty is worse than the worst threat!

Are you sure you mean Northwest, indeed? Iam asking as it seems to me that the NW looks very icy to me, and I myself mix up directions very often.

Thanks for the encourageing cost-benefit remark, but these types of units are going to be the best we have for quite some time... I am almost willing to believe that there is no Churchill's SoD when I am looking at the graphs, but I guess you are right on this.

 

[woopdeedoo]

Yeah! Just kill Bismarck and ruin Churchill as best you can! YOU CAN DO EEET!!!

 

[Cam_H]

Now I've seen the save I can't see that there's a lot more to add ... just charge ahead! I'd be inclined to keep every city unless they're really abysmally placed.

Now that we are a bit light with Catapults in our SoD, I agree that one quick round of whips of Catapults wouldn't be a bad idea in the former German and Chinese cities (one turn natural build, then one turn whip, overflow goes into the current build). I think we can afford to throw everything at London when we find it, but otherwise I'd probably try to preserve the Catapults by restricting their actions to bringing down defences if cities we come across (i.e. those cities that aren't London) are to be attacked at all for a while. Depends I guess as to what the garrisons are like as to whether the War Elephants can risk going in against units with no collateral damage.

b.t.w. Bismark doesn't have Iron, Ivory, or Horses, so it looks like he's got Maces and Longbows assuming he's not worked up to Gunpowder through Guilds.

Nice work so far with the turnset.

 

[vranasm]

checking the save now...

looks good. Not really sure if london is north east or west from york. i would put my bet on city 1NE of sheep. Another somewhere around fur.

i wouldn't delay the attack with healing much, leave those injured units with medic in york and move along.

Imo you should next turn move the Sentry HA 1NE of horses and you will see what is in the fog and decide which direction to take.

The north east looks peninsulaish, but could lead deeper.

We could use wave of cats as Cam suggested. You can use overflow from catapults into some builds on the run (into those courthouses in frankfurt and munich)

We could start building the Notre Dame in prague for fail gold (we have bonus)

Don't be afraid of whip button at some cities. I wouldn't whip Shanghai though, there is ton of cottages and we need to grow them (since we decided to stick with them).

Prioritize growth everywhere (as an example you can MM Berling to grow in 2 instead of 3)

Guangzhou needs to irrigate that rice I think I had there some worker which should draw the agri from city 2 towards the rice

There is too many workers around bibracte and not enough around Monte carlo, we should be more aggressive towards 'wetting' our HE city.

Other then that i like what I saw.

Keep up the good work. This was minor points, but every detail counts, it's easy to lose self in such big empire, just prioritize food to grow into happy cap and spreading irrigation towards cities in need (HE city, guangh) ;-)

edit:

oh btw Churchill certainly has some SoD. Don't forget he has still around 0.8 of our power spread around ~6 cities. We have our power spread over 21... our MP skews this comparision big time.

Maybe be a bit careful at first...

 

[Cam_H]

The area to the north east does look as though it has marginally more culture than the north west, but I'm really not sure if that's enough to pinpoint London or not. - we'll soon find out.

I generally agree with everything that vran's saying. Your call on the 'failure gold' with Notre Dame in Prague - I must admit that I'd be focusing on Food, Cottages, and Scientists in this city, but if extra citizens can work the Mines 'then great'.

I should point out that in terms of the 'Diamonds are Forever' variant, that the fact that we popped Gems in Prague has made this a lot easier. The original map had two Gems resources, but now I guess all we need to do is find one more, which could possibly done with a resource trade. I hadn't even considered the possibility of popping Gems when setting up the game!

 

[vranasm]

we could invest the few hammers we work right now into Notre Dame... Just wanted to point out that we could run 2x wealth in Prague instead of building of wealth, since I thought that is natural choice for next "build" in Prague.

That wasn't meant to mean "switch all citizens to mines" instead more of "just throw Notre Dame into build queue instead of wealth and grow on cottages into mines", btw prefer GH before PH always ;-)

I have to admit I didn't study the rules just tried to help with the eco a bit etc.

 

[Cam_H]

we could invest the few hammers we work right now into Notre Dame... Just wanted to point out that we could run 2x wealth in Prague instead of building of wealth, since I thought that is natural choice for next "build" in Prague.

That wasn't meant to mean "switch all citizens to mines" instead more of "just throw Notre Dame into build queue instead of wealth and grow on cottages into mines"

No problem ... understood.

btw prefer GH before PH always ;-)

Grassland Hill's Mine over Plains Hill's Mine? Situation dependent, but generally 'yes'.

 

[FiveRings]

Thanks for the good advise! I like the fail-gold idea - I was somewhat focused on getting those wonders for real, but after I got disappointed by the UofSank - it was almost not worth finishing it! - and facing a long and bloody war, V's idea seems better, indeed. BTW, I seem to have put some workers to get MC wetted - they need to bring the water from a long distance, though, IIRC.

OK, I'll play this evening, so if W, or you, guys, have something to add, you are most welcome!