More Alternate Leaders?

[S.G.Junge]

I'm not sure if it's proper to make Viśa' Saṃbhava (known in Chinese as Li Shengtian 李圣天, ruled 912-966) as the alt one of Scythia, with Khotan as his capital.
Khotanese is a dialect of Saka or Scythian language (most city states in Tarim Basin spoke Tocharian languages then of course), so could be considered as a branch of Scythia? And Viśa' Saṃbhava was known for his Buddhism faith and the war against Jihad by Qarakhanid. I think he could focus on religion,since Tomyris is a warrior queen xP

 

[Patine]

Gandhi always struck me as a better choice for a Great Person than an actual leader (sadly, this game has no Great Statespeople, for which he would be a slam-dunk choice, alongside Churchill, Bismarck, Ben Franklin, and several others who held large political influence without being an official head of state, like Plato and Taytu Betul.)

Besides, it's about time Firaxis realize where the bread is actually buttered as far as nuke-happy Gandhis go

Spoiler :

Smiling Buddha Nuclear Test!

 

[Patine]

I'm not sure if it's proper to make Viśa' Saṃbhava (known in Chinese as Li Shengtian 李圣天, ruled 912-966) as the alt one of Scythia, with Khotan as his capital.
Khotanese is a dialect of Saka or Scythian language (most city states in Tarim Basin spoke Tocharian languages then of course), so could be considered as a branch of Scythia? And Viśa' Saṃbhava was known for his Buddhism faith and the war against Jihad by Qarakhanid. I think he could focus on religion,since Tomyris is a warrior queen xP

I've never understood the Scythians being a Civ. They weren't REALLY civilization in the classical, archaeological sense - they built no cities (only kurgans), farmed no land permanently, had no written language (everything "written" by them was recorded by the Ptolemy the geography, Plithy the Elder, Tacitus, some Persian officials etc., and most of their "rulers" (they never did even have a permanent unified ruling structure) were just folklore names and heroes probably no more reliable or real than Endiku, Heracles, Theseus, and Cucalein (sp)). If one is going to have a Civ in the Eurasian Horse Nomad metaculture of that level of societal underdevelopment (an idea I'm not overly fond of, given the theme of the game), then Attila and the Huns would have been more charismatic and iconic for the role.

 

[S.G.Junge]

I've never understood the Scythians being a Civ. They weren't REALLY civilization in the classical, archaeological sense - they built no cities (only kurgans), farmed no land permanently, had no written language (everything "written" by them was recorded by the Ptolemy the geography, Plithy the Elder, Tacitus, some Persian officials etc., and most of their "rulers" (they never did even have a permanent unified ruling structure) were just folklore names and heroes probably no more reliable or real than Endiku, Heracles, Theseus, and Cucalein (sp)). If one is going to have a Civ in the Eurasian Horse Nomad metaculture of that level of societal underdevelopment (an idea I'm not overly fond of, given the theme of the game), then Attila and the Huns would have been more charismatic and iconic for the role.

Simply thought Huns might be another Mongol or Macedonia:3
I know there was Attila in civ5……
East Iranians did be important in Asian history before the rising of Turks, although I thought it would be Sogdia before the release……Nevermind
Anyway, late Scythians might be better if you think the classical era Scythia wasn't good enough, such as Alanians or Khotanese, the languages were written down, the farms were built, so did the cities (including famous known Kashgar), just not correspond with the Scythian kingdom, um...
I think it might be better if I sleep now with my heavy head...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Gandhi wore normal clothes before he became the Mahatma. He was originally a South African lawyer, you know. I make an exception for Wilhelmina because she's adorable.

I know, I was talking about his in-game clothes are anything but western. And yes Wilhelmina is adorable. I want Lenin though for Russia, and that's it for modern leaders unless they give us Eva Peron with Argentina, but that's not a high priority for me.

 

[Patine]

I know, I was talking about his in-game clothes are anything but western. And yes Wilhelmina is adorable. I want Lenin though for Russia, and that's it for modern leaders unless they give us Eva Peron with Argentina, but that's not a high priority for me.

Deng Xiaopeng for China and Abdel Gamal Nasser for Egypt would be cool modern leaders. Maybe also Eleftherios Venizelos for Greece.

 

[Phrozen]

I know, I was talking about his in-game clothes are anything but western. And yes Wilhelmina is adorable. I want Lenin though for Russia, and that's it for modern leaders unless they give us Eva Peron with Argentina, but that's not a high priority for me.

Why does everybody want a Peron for Argentina? The Perons helped start the slide of Argentina from one of the wealthiest countries in the world, seriously it was close to the US as far as new world economic powerhouse goes, to the cycle of hyperinflation and bankruptcy basket case that has defined Argentina's economy for the last 70 years or so.

 

[Patine]

Why does everybody want a Peron for Argentina? The Perons helped start the slide of Argentina from one of the wealthiest countries in the world, seriously it was close to the US as far as new world economic powerhouse goes, to the cycle of hyperinflation and bankruptcy basket case that has defined Argentina's economy for the last 70 years or so.

I fully agree here, I'm afraid. If there is an Argentinian civ, I'd much rather see Juan Martin de Pueyrredon or Hipolito Yrigoyen, by far.

 

[Zaarin]

Deng Xiaopeng for China and Abdel Gamal Nasser for Egypt would be cool modern leaders. Maybe also Eleftherios Venizelos for Greece.

Wrong Egypt. That would be like Boudicca leading England or Powhatan leading the US. And I don't know about you, but I can't say the Arab Republic of Egypt is high on my wishlist. Also wrong Greece, and for the love of Athena we have enough Greeks already.

 

[Patine]

Also wrong Greece,

The Panhellenic Society would like to have a word with you for making that absolute cultural distinction, there...

 

[Morningcalm]

I'm not too fond of John Curtin in real life. Or Haile Selassie.

Why?

Same.

Curtain triggers the uncanny valley for me, plus his hat-throwing tantrums make me roll my eyes. Completely aside from my disdain for including Australia, I personally think Curtin's visual design is horrible. As for Selassie, he was okay, but I'd prefer an older emperor. Zar'a Ya'qob would be my choice.

Curtin doesn't have much uncanny valley at all in my opinion--and the hat-throwing adds character which many other Civ VI leaders simply lack. I roll my eyes when Pedro crunches his teeth and growls, which, while less extreme than hat-throwing, is arguably as overbaked, but without the fun. Or when Victoria screams in frustration. For me, Curtin is one of the few Civ VI leaders whose agenda and character I can remember without any difficulty. Alongside Catherine de Medici, Cleopatra, Philip II, and a select few others. And he's assisted by being fairly historically accurate in his speech patterns and mannerisms, and with more realistic (aka not plasticine) appearance as opposed to some other Civ VI leaders.

I think Zara Yacob was a tad too extremist in his later years (granted, we have Shaka, but still). I would prefer Menelik II in his regal garb (though the real emperor was more often seen in a fancy hat, apparently). Civ has had Zara before (Civ IV), but never Menelik II, so I think it's time.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Why does everybody want a Peron for Argentina? The Perons helped start the slide of Argentina from one of the wealthiest countries in the world, seriously it was close to the US as far as new world economic powerhouse goes, to the cycle of hyperinflation and bankruptcy basket case that has defined Argentina's economy for the last 70 years or so.

I honestly don't know much about Argentina but I remember her vividly portrayed in that musical by Madonna and that's how I pictured she would be, if we got her in game just for those reasons. Plus Firaxis likes pop culture references, and female representation, and I wouldn't mind her telling Argentina not to cry for her as her defeat screen.

 

[Zaarin]

Curtin doesn't have much uncanny valley at all in my opinion--and the hat-throwing adds character which many other Civ VI leaders simply lack. I roll my eyes when Pedro crunches his teeth and growls, which, while less extreme than hat-throwing, is arguably as overbaked, but without the fun. Or when Victoria screams in frustration. For me, Curtin is one of the few Civ VI leaders whose agenda and character I can remember without any difficulty. Alongside Catherine de Medici, Cleopatra, Philip II, and a select few others. And he's assisted by being fairly historically accurate in his speech patterns and mannerisms, and with more realistic (aka not plasticine) appearance as opposed to some other Civ VI leaders.

All I know is that the two times that Steam has sneakily re-enabled Australia on me, his appearance triggered the same offputting response as Rogue One's Tarkin did, which is my only other experience with the uncanny valley (I have a fairly high tolerance). Australia has three marks against it in my book: it shouldn't have been in the game in the first place, I dislike didgeridoos, and Curtain's model is the worst in the game IMO, even over Mohandas Gollum. Actually a fourth as well: when I expressed my disappointment on Facebook, Firaxis' community manager responded very rudely to me. I ended up unliking Civilization and uninstalling the game--I don't think I reinstalled until Macedon/Persia dropped and I don't think I re-liked Civilizations' FB page until R&F was announced.

I think Zara Yacob was a tad too extremist in his later years

I'm just going to throw out there that next to Qin Shi Huang he looks like St. Francis of Assisi. He's generally regarded as Ethiopia's most powerful emperor, and his reign was generally positive before his decline. He'd hardly be the greatest monster in the game.

I would prefer Menelik II

Ethiopia has over a couple thousand years of history--is picking a ruler from the last 200 really necessary?

The Panhellenic Society would like to have a word with you for making that absolute cultural distinction, there...

Unfortunately I don't have time for ultranationalists and their fringe theories, but if they'd like they can draw a number and I'll get to them when I'm done with the Hungarian nationalists and their claim to be Sumerian. Greek culture and language are remarkably conservative, but after over two millennia of rule by Rome, Byzantium, and the Ottomans, it's a bit difficult to maintain that the Republic of Greece is the same polity as Pericles' Athens.

 

[Morningcalm]

All I know is that the two times that Steam has sneakily re-enabled Australia on me, his appearance triggered the same offputting response as Rogue One's Tarkin did, which is my only other experience with the uncanny valley (I have a fairly high tolerance). Australia has three marks against it in my book: it shouldn't have been in the game in the first place, I dislike didgeridoos, and Curtain's model is the worst in the game IMO, even over Mohandas Gollum. Actually a fourth as well: when I expressed my disappointment on Facebook, Firaxis' community manager responded very rudely to me. I ended up unliking Civilization and uninstalling the game--I don't think I reinstalled until Macedon/Persia dropped and I don't think I re-liked Civilizations' FB page until R&F was announced.

Tarkin triggered uncanny valley for me but not Curtin, and I think he is VERY far from the worst model in the game, including and particularly badly animated leaders like Barbarossa, or monstrous plasticine leaders like Pedro, or any number of ahistorical leader portrayals like that of Pericles. I also think Australia shouldn't have been in the game, but I think that's completely irrelevant to whether Curtin is one of the better modern leaders in the game in terms of character and agenda.

Were you expressing disappointment on Facebook over Australia being included, or on Curtin's appearance?

I'm just going to throw out there that next to Qin Shi Huang he looks like St. Francis of Assisi. He's generally regarded as Ethiopia's most powerful emperor, and his reign was generally positive before his decline. He'd hardly be the greatest monster in the game.

Hardly being the greatest monster in the game is hardly the best reason for him to be in.

The story of his later years reads like the story of Shaka in his later years, or Ivan the Terrible. Sure, all were effective and impactful rulers, but their legacy is forevermore tarnished by their last years. I don't think anyone would argue with the idea that Zara was one of Ethiopia's greatest leaders though. But the same is true of Afonso I of Kongo, who also has a mixed record despite some noteworthy accomplishments.

Ethiopia has over a couple thousand years of history--is picking a ruler from the last 200 really necessary?

No, it's not necessary. But it's not necessary to pick a leader from any other particular time in Ethiopian history either. In the case of Menelk II it would be a good pick. He defeated Italy among other things, which is the basis for Ethiopia's defense bonus in Civ V and has much significance for African decolonialists.

 

[Guandao]

I've never understood the Scythians being a Civ. They weren't REALLY civilization in the classical, archaeological sense - they built no cities (only kurgans), farmed no land permanently, had no written language (everything "written" by them was recorded by the Ptolemy the geography, Plithy the Elder, Tacitus, some Persian officials etc., and most of their "rulers" (they never did even have a permanent unified ruling structure) were just folklore names and heroes probably no more reliable or real than Endiku, Heracles, Theseus, and Cucalein (sp)). If one is going to have a Civ in the Eurasian Horse Nomad metaculture of that level of societal underdevelopment (an idea I'm not overly fond of, given the theme of the game), then Attila and the Huns would have been more charismatic and iconic for the role.

I'm guessing you dislike the Cree becoming a Civ too? Please, no more broken Chuvash. Or taking City-names from other Civs. I don't really want a cartoony Attila either. They'll make him look like Gerard Butler. How about the Xiongnu becoming a Civ?

Why?

I believe I've read before that Curtin was a supporter of the White Australia policy. I'm hoping I won't trigger someone for typing this.
As for Selassie, I kind of see him as a dictator, who eventually lost his power to the Derg. And I have the sneaking suspicion he was picked for G&K because he's the Rastafari messiah.

 

[AmazonQueen]

I believe I've read before that Curtin was a supporter of the White Australia policy. I'm hoping I won't trigger someone for typing this.

He was as were almost all white Australians in that era. He was generally progressive though. Pension rights and maternity benefits were extended to aborigines for the first time by his government.

 

[Morningcalm]

He was as were almost all white Australians in that era. He was generally progressive though. Pension rights and maternity benefits were extended to aborigines for the first time by his government.

Exactly. For his time he was quite ahead of the times.

 

[Guandao]

Exactly. For his time he was quite ahead of the times.

I still don't admire him. FDR wasn't that much better either (with regards to Civil rights for minorities).

 

[Morningcalm]

I still don't admire him. FDR wasn't that much better either (with regards to Civil rights for minorities).

Why? He did much that was admirable. Supporting White Australia back then but giving Aborigines more rights was definitely a step ahead in his time. FDR never gave the Japanese-Americans he corralled into camps more rights. And many leaders like Lincoln who are revered nevertheless held questionable views on race (in Lincoln's case, on Native Americans). We were less enlightened back then.

As for Selassie, I kind of see him as a dictator, who eventually lost his power to the Derg. And I have the sneaking suspicion he was picked for G&K because he's the Rastafari messiah.

He certainly was a dictator in some senses (authoritarian, perhaps, though certainly less than Caesar or other revered leaders). But he was a huge advocate of multilateralism and brought Ethiopia to the modern world's stage in a major way and created Ethiopia's constitution. He also saw reform as necessary but knew of its potential downsides and guarded against this. As for the loss of power, I don't see that as a strike against him, just as I don't with Pedro II. Haille Selassie also spoke movingly before the League of Nations (in Amharic) when Ethiopia was being invaded by Benito Mussolini, and pointed out some European nations' hypocrisy in being Ethiopia's allies but trying to appease Italy and even providing resources for Italy (caused some scandal in the day). The speech, which detailed the necessity of collective security (small states to protect against aggression of larger states) and railed against European inaction, among other aspects of the speech, made Haile an anti-fascist icon, which color he shares with Curtin.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

All I know is that the two times that Steam has sneakily re-enabled Australia on me, his appearance triggered the same offputting response as Rogue One's Tarkin did, which is my only other experience with the uncanny valley (I have a fairly high tolerance). Australia has three marks against it in my book: it shouldn't have been in the game in the first place, I dislike didgeridoos, and Curtain's model is the worst in the game IMO, even over Mohandas Gollum. Actually a fourth as well: when I expressed my disappointment on Facebook, Firaxis' community manager responded very rudely to me. I ended up unliking Civilization and uninstalling the game--I don't think I reinstalled until Macedon/Persia dropped and I don't think I re-liked Civilizations' FB page until R&F was announced.

Honestly I was surprised when they were announced, but they quickly became one of my favorites to play as. Even though I wouldn't have thought to put them in the game at least they fill up a spot in the world that wasn't there before and it would have been either them or the Aboriginals, which is probably hard to do. I also don't understand how he is the worst model in the game, especially over Gandhi, who is the worst looking in my opinion. To me he is one of the more realistic looking ones. Also the didgeridoos make the theme music better in my opinion.

Ethiopia has over a couple thousand years of history--is picking a ruler from the last 200 really necessary?

Picking an Axum Era leader would be nice and hasn't been done yet, if they consider Axum to be a part of continuous Ethiopia.