More Alternate Leaders?

[Zaarin]

I'd consider the Netherlands a pretty low priority. Wilhelmina is adorable, and if a European civ is going to get an alternate leader I think England and France are the obvious choices, followed by Germany. Or, you know, we could get a few more Greek alternate leaders. Gotta add Periander and Pisistratus, or the game's not even complete.

 

[darkace77450]

What do people think of Wilhelmina?

I find her to have the least interesting Leader Ability in the game by a good margin. I want to play as the Dutch. I want to spam those gorgeous polders everywhere I can. But I can't bring myself to do it because Wilhelmina is so painfully bland.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I find her to have the least interesting Leader Ability in the game by a good margin. I want to play as the Dutch. I want to spam those gorgeous polders everywhere I can. But I can't bring myself to do it because Wilhelmina is so painfully bland.

The Dutch are one of my favorite Civs to play as actually and I don't see them needing an alternate as a religious game would not suit them. France would be my go to for another European alternate or either Russia and Germany because I find them to have the least interesting leader abilities.

 

[Guandao]

What do people think of Wilhelmina? I really like the Netherlands as a civ but I think they could do with an alternate leader. Wilhelminas leader bonus isn't great (having ten trade routes nets you 10 culture) and she is very modern compared to other European leaders. Her animations are a bit ridiculous as well, especially when you declare war on her.

Rather than Mary Poppins I would like to see either William I the Silent or William III of Orange as leader. Since both these leaders were some of the main opponents to the Catholic church in Europe maybe a leader bonus that is focused on religion would be more appropriate. I know William the Silent was in Civ5 but like Genghis Khan I would make an exemption for a leader who was so important to the Civ that they led.

If William the Silent is added to Civ6, I would like Firaxis to portray him younger.

 

[Morningcalm]

Nur Jahan for India as a female ruler. She is a feminist icon, and though known for a romantic aspect to her story, was nevertheless the real power behind the Mughal throne for around 15 years, was a patron of Mughal architecture, and "possessed great physical strength and courage. She often went on hunting tours with her husband, and was known for her marksmanship and boldness in hunting ferocious tigers. She is reported to have slain four tigers with six bullets during one hunt."

 

[Phrozen]

If William the Silent is added to Civ6, I would like Firaxis to portray him younger.

Johan de Witt would be better.

 

[Stomper66]

I'd consider the Netherlands a pretty low priority. Wilhelmina is adorable, and if a European civ is going to get an alternate leader I think England and France are the obvious choices, followed by Germany. Or, you know, we could get a few more Greek alternate leaders. Gotta add Periander and Pisistratus, or the game's not even complete.

Yeah it's just a shame Netherlands was a R&F civ because it puts them low on the list compared to civs like England and France. Germany eh I've never actually played them because they don't really appeal to me. Would you want Bismarck or Frederick though with some kind of Military bonus?

The Dutch are one of my favorite Civs to play as actually and I don't see them needing an alternate as a religious game would not suit them. France would be my go to for another European alternate or either Russia and Germany because I find them to have the least interesting leader abilities.

I've recently played my first game with Netherlands and was able to build Stonehenge at the start. This allowed me to adopt Protestantism with the meeting house, work ethic, church property and defender of the faith beliefs. My religion complimented my Polders and Schutterij (I use steel and thunder) beautifully and made me by far the richest and most productive civ in the game. I don't think Netherlands are suited to religious victory but in my experience a religion certainly helps.
The same question for you with Russia. Who would you want as an alternate leader and what would you want the leader bonus to be?

Johan de Witt would be better.

Yes just some leader from the 1600s because for the majority of the 17th century the Netherlands was considered to be in a Economic and Diplomatic golden age. William the Silent, William of Orange and Johan de Witt are all interesting characters and their features could easily be exaggerated to suit the Civ6 leader design. I think the leader should definitely be male as a female leader just doesn't feel right for the Netherlands. If you take the 4 European civs who come into their own in the mid game (England, France, Spain, Holland) 3 are already female and only 1 is male, and future alternates for Spain and Russia are likely to be female as well.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I find her to have the least interesting Leader Ability in the game by a good margin. I want to play as the Dutch. I want to spam those gorgeous polders everywhere I can. But I can't bring myself to do it because Wilhelmina is so painfully bland.

um what? In terms of voice acting and overal character design, Billiemina is one of the best leaders in the game. They completely nailed her vibe.

Her ability sucks tho, but i mean, the solution for that is to buff the damn ability, not spend precious resources and time on a brand new leader, so to placate to the fanboys. (the existence of Macedon and NukeGandhi is enough of a fanwank.)

 

[Zaarin]

Yeah it's just a shame Netherlands was a R&F civ because it puts them low on the list compared to civs like England and France. Germany eh I've never actually played them because they don't really appeal to me. Would you want Bismarck or Frederick though with some kind of Military bonus?

Honestly, I personally don't want an alternate leader for Germany, either. Bad model aside, Freddie is just fine for me. But if Germany got an alternate leader, I suspect that it would indeed be the Iron Chancellor.

um what? In terms of voice acting and overal character design, Billiemina is one of the best leaders in the game. They completely nailed her vibe.

Seconded. In a game where the leaders are supposed to be "big personalities," I can't think of a single one that exudes half the personality Wilhelmina does.

 

[Phrozen]

Seconded. In a game where the leaders are supposed to be "big personalities," I can't think of a single one that exudes half the personality Wilhelmina does.

Cleo and CdM.

 

[AmazonQueen]

When it comes to personality it is all down to personal taste but I think Hojo is my favourite.
He gives me the impression of controlled power ready to be unleashed.

Plus his agenda suits the way I tend to play.

 

[Zaarin]

Cleo and CdM.

Cleo's overdone. Caricature is not the same as character. CdM...okay, yes, she has about half the personality Wilhelmina has, putting her in second place.

 

[Stomper66]

Carrying on my game with Netherlands I think I was wrong about half of Wilhelminas ability. I thought 10 culture for ten trade routes was weak but I forgot about the trade routes that other civs send to you. In this game I have now 15 trade routes and another 15 routes sent to me by other civs so 30 culture points (60 with my trade confederation policy) is pretty damn powerful. The loyalty trait is rubbish though you would have to send so many trade routes to one city to stop it from flipping.

Considering this Wilhelminas agenda makes sense but I still can't see how this leader has a big personality. She seems a bit too simplistic to me. She is happy if you send trade routes and sad if you don't send trade routes. I think it would be more interesting if a new dutch leader was focused on or impressed by something else that was harder to achieve.

I also like Hojo (his sword animations are awesome) but for personality I think my favourite would have to be Philip. I know that the real Philip was completely different and he is a bit of a passionate spaniard stereotype but his animations are so fun and very relevant to his play style and leader agenda. He is also super fun to play as or against and makes both a good friend and enemy in the game.

I think for Civ6 Caricature is not a bad thing for the leader design. Especially with the Disney like design style for the leaders and animations its good that some of the features and traits are exaggerated.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I've recently played my first game with Netherlands and was able to build Stonehenge at the start. This allowed me to adopt Protestantism with the meeting house, work ethic, church property and defender of the faith beliefs. My religion complimented my Polders and Schutterij (I use steel and thunder) beautifully and made me by far the richest and most productive civ in the game. I don't think Netherlands are suited to religious victory but in my experience a religion certainly helps.
The same question for you with Russia. Who would you want as an alternate leader and what would you want the leader bonus to be?

Yes just some leader from the 1600s because for the majority of the 17th century the Netherlands was considered to be in a Economic and Diplomatic golden age.

Regarding the Netherlands, even though we may not have a leader from the Dutch golden age, the combination of Wilhelmina’s ability involving trade routes, harbor district priority, and river start bias for commercial hubs make it feel like they were designed well done in my opinion.
As for Russia I stated in an earlier post that I would want Vladimir Lenin to lead Russia focusing more on the mass production side of Russia and govt/ diplomacy abilities as well. The only female leader I could see us getting would be Catherine again amd I think she would be too similar to Peter and adding a Soviet leader from Moscow would be unique.

 

[Zaarin]

Considering this Wilhelminas agenda makes sense but I still can't see how this leader has a big personality.

It has nothing to do with her agenda. Her agenda is obnoxious. She complains if you don't send her trade routes even if you're on the opposite side of the world and literally can't. It's her animations and voice acting, which is really all the personality any of the leaders have.

I think for Civ6 Caricature is not a bad thing for the leader design.

To a degree, but making a caricature of someone doesn't automatically make that caricature have personality. Cleopatra's okay, but I feel like they overplayed the "seductive" card.

 

[Guandao]

Cleopatra in Civ6 doesn't even resemble the real life woman. She never has in the Civ games (or in Assassin's Creed Origins ). She probably looked more like the picture below (which is based on the bust in the pic below that). I think these video games try too hard to make her look like a native Egyptian.

 

[Zaarin]

Cleopatra in Civ6 doesn't even resemble the real life woman.

I think modern Americans particularly have a hard time imagining someone being extremely charming and seductive without being physically attractive. Look at all the money celebrities pay to make themselves allegedly attractive (I say "allegedly" because neither "anorexic with implants" nor "artificially sculpted" are particularly attractive to me). Yet ancient authorities told us she wasn't particularly attractive physically, bearing in mind standards of beauty change (so for instance at the time her big nose would actually have been considered attractive, whereas big noses, particularly for women, are not presently considered attractive generally).

I think these video games try too hard to make her look like a native Egyptian.

In general, yes, though I think Civ6 Cleo looks more Greek than Egyptian, but certainly nothing like her bust (which was not contemporary but probably isn't a horrible likeness). Also worth noting that Cleo (and most Egyptians) probably wore Hellenistic clothing (i.e., a chiton), though she may have added some Egyptian accoutrements as the "incarnation of Isis." Firaxis is probably well aware that an authentic portrayal of Cleopatra VII, unattractive, ethnically Greek with a Greek updo and a chiton, would be dissatisfying to most players preconceived notions about Cleopatra. (In which case the obvious argument is that they should have gone with Hatshepsut, but alas.)

 

[Guandao]

(In which case the obvious argument is that they should have gone with Hatshepsut, but alas.)

I recently watched an episode of Sacred Sites on the Smithsonian Channel which discusses Hatshepsut. She was formerly a God's Wife of Amun (a powerful priestess in a Theban temple) prior to becoming regent for her son and eventually Pharaoh. Her duties included some, shall we say "seductive" things. For example: there was a night (the Festival of Drunkenness) where men and women got drunk and had intercourse. Hatshepsut could've been portrayed as seductive in the game. I'm gonna pretend Civ6's Cleo is Hatshepsut without her male Pharaoh outfit from now on.

 

[Patine]

I think modern Americans particularly have a hard time imagining someone being extremely charming and seductive without being physically attractive. Look at all the money celebrities pay to make themselves allegedly attractive (I say "allegedly" because neither "anorexic with implants" nor "artificially sculpted" are particularly attractive to me). Yet ancient authorities told us she wasn't particularly attractive physically, bearing in mind standards of beauty change (so for instance at the time her big nose would actually have been considered attractive, whereas big noses, particularly for women, are not presently considered attractive generally).


In general, yes, though I think Civ6 Cleo looks more Greek than Egyptian, but certainly nothing like her bust (which was not contemporary but probably isn't a horrible likeness). Also worth noting that Cleo (and most Egyptians) probably wore Hellenistic clothing (i.e., a chiton), though she may have added some Egyptian accoutrements as the "incarnation of Isis." Firaxis is probably well aware that an authentic portrayal of Cleopatra VII, unattractive, ethnically Greek with a Greek updo and a chiton, would be dissatisfying to most players preconceived notions about Cleopatra. (In which case the obvious argument is that they should have gone with Hatshepsut, but alas.)

The problem of "native Egyptian people looked like" is confused by three things - first, Egyptian records and hieroglyphics were not very in depth or graphically descriptive of people (much like the Bible and Quran, aren't, in fact), but glazed over a lot of details, or assumed the reader would already be of a context and familiarity to know; second, Egypt, by the time of the Ptolemaic Dynasty's establishment, had already had invasions, settling, and intermarriage, by Ancient Libyans, Berbers, Bedouins, Nubians, Kuhorsehockyes, Axumites, Assyrians, Phoenicians, and whomever the "Sea Peoples" and "Hyksos" actually were and referred to; and, third, a lot of the modern viewpoint of "native Egyptian appearance" is from modern Egyptians, which is the result of even more invasions, settling, and intermarriage after Cleopatra's time.

 

[Zaarin]

She was formerly a God's Wife of Amun

As were most pharaohs' first wives (first in preeminence, not marriage order...).

Hatshepsut without her male Pharaoh outfit from now on.

Which she probably only wore on certain occasions if at all; most depictions of her show her in female garb.

The problem of "native Egyptian people looked like" is confused by three things - first, Egyptian records and hieroglyphics were not very in depth or graphically descriptive of people (much like the Bible and Quran, aren't, in fact), but glazed over a lot of details, or assumed the reader would already be of a context and familiarity to know; second, Egypt, by the time of the Ptolemaic Dynasty's establishment, had already had invasions, settling, and intermarriage, by Ancient Libyans, Berbers, Bedouins, Nubians, Ku****es, Axumites, Assyrians, Phoenicians, and whomever the "Sea Peoples" and "Hyksos" actually were and referred to; and, third, a lot of the modern viewpoint of "native Egyptian appearance" is from modern Egyptians, which is the result of even more invasions, settling, and intermarriage after Cleopatra's time.

You're not wrong, but genetic testing has shown that modern Egyptians, especially Copts, are very closely related to Ancient Egyptians and are in fact one of the most conservative populations (genetically) in the entire region: successive Asiatic, Greek, Roman, and Arab invasions do not seem to have left profound genetic markers on the Egyptian people. And yes, Egyptian art was highly codified (women are gold, men are red, Asiatics are yellow, Nubians are black, etc.), but I think you can learn something about a people from their ideals of beauty.

I think the biggest issue in discussing Ancient Egyptians are the modern politicized notions of race that are outraged because the Egyptians were neither black nor white, but more closely related to Berbers and Levantines than Sub-Saharan Africans or Northern Europeans. I've lost track of how many cringeworthy rants I've had the misfortune to observe centered on one of: "Ramesses was a redhead! Ramesses was Northern European!" (because only Europeans have red hair ) or "Look at the Negroid features of the pharaohs! Egyptians were black!" Yes, thank you for you clearly unbiased and objective analysis of the facts... The Egyptians themselves would have found such discussions baffling: the ideal woman might have had olive skin, black hair, and black eyes and the ideal man be a little darker with the same, but in practice Egypt was a multi-ethnic society with Libyans/Berbers, Nubians, Semites, Hittites, Hurrians, etc. and was pretty welcoming so long as the individual embraced Egyptian culture, regardless of skin color.

I think there's good reason to assume that the Sea People were Cretan or Aegean (though that hasn't been decisively demonstrated) and the Hyksos were Northwest Semites (many of the Hyksos pharaohs had Semitic and specifically Northwest Semitic names).

As for Cleopatra herself, however, we have her genealogy, and it's 100% Macedonian. In fact, it's pretty nearly 100% Ptolemy. So Egyptian ethnic identity is pretty irrelevant in talking about the appearance of Cleopatra VII Philopator.