More Alternate Leaders?

[Guandao]

And the game would be banned in every country with a Muslim majority.

Like Malaysia....sighs.....

 

[Zaarin]

I know that modern Israel would cause controversy but the Kingdom of Judea shouldn't cause any issues right? Would be nice to get a Jewish civ in the roster.

I suspect it would still be controversial, but would it be banned is the more important question? That I don't know. (Also "Judea" is the Roman province, "Judah" is the kingdom or the tribe or the son of Jacob. The apostle of Jesus is usually Judas, but the brother of Jesus is usually Jude. In Hebrew or Aramaic they're all the same: Yᵉhūdā.)

 

[Patine]

I suspect it would still be controversial, but would it be banned is the more important question? That I don't know. (Also "Judea" is the Roman province, "Judah" is the kingdom or the tribe or the son of Jacob. The apostle of Jesus is usually Judas, but the brother of Jesus is usually Jude. In Hebrew or Aramaic they're all the same: Yᵉhūdā.)

Kind of like Mao and Liu's title as head-of-state of the PRC, translated in English as "Chairman," Hua and Deng's title as such, translated in English as "Paramount Leader," and Hu and Xi's titles as such, translated in English as "President," are, in Chinese, and in the Chinese Constitution, all three the same title - Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó, Zhǔxí, 中華人民共和國主席, or 中華人民共和國主席, depending on transliteration - a title and name which has not changed once in Chinese or the Chinese Constitution since it's creation in 1954, though it was temporarily abolished as an office between 1975 and 1982.

 

[Stomper66]

They wouldn't even try to do modern day Israel, and that's not what I would want either.

Yeah I figured. I was just responding to the Ben Gurion comment.

I know that modern Israel would cause controversy but the Kingdom of Judea shouldn't cause any issues right? Would be nice to get a Jewish civ in the roster.

I think it even having the Kingdom of Judea would be too controversial. I know that the movie Exodus was banned in Egypt and the UAE for being too Zionist and that was based in 1400 BC lol. I'm no expert on the subject but I think there is a split on modern day thought on whether there should even be a Jewish homeland. It's all good having ancient Judea but when you advance through the ages and start getting things like closed borders, tanks and military bases it starts looking like modern day Israel. In summary it's awkward for a Jewish civ because you have to question whether it is a religion or a civilisation.

 

[Zaarin]

I know that the movie Exodus was banned in Egypt and the UAE for being too Zionist and that was based in 1400 BC lol.

Are you sure it wasn't simply for depicting an Islamic Prophet (Moses)? That's why Prince of Egypt was banned in Egypt, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I know that modern Israel would cause controversy but the Kingdom of Judea shouldn't cause any issues right? Would be nice to get a Jewish civ in the roster.

I wonder if naming the Civ, the Hebrews, would make it sound better? That way it could leave open possibilities of other leaders, such as Deborah, who existed before the actual kingdom of Judah.

 

[Patine]

I wonder if naming the Civ, the Hebrews, would make it sound better? That way it could leave open possibilities of other leaders, such as Deborah, who existed before the actual kingdom of Judah.

That's true. For quite a while in Antiquity, "Hebrew" was not only the language, but the ethnicity, while such nearby ethnicities as Edomites, Moabites, Phoenicians, Shebans, Ethiopians, and, later Nebataeans, Carthaginians, and various Aramaic speakers were known to have significant numbers of members who also practiced the Jewish religion, but were not ethnically or culturally Hebrew. However, at some point around or shortly after the Diaspora, "Jew" became conflatable and interchangeable as a member of the ethnicity, culture, and religion in one.

 

[Zaarin]

I wonder if naming the Civ, the Hebrews, would make it sound better? That way it could leave open possibilities of other leaders, such as Deborah, who existed before the actual kingdom of Judah.

That is a possibility. It has the disadvantage of being less specific, but it has the advantage of opening up the possibility a second leader (to modders, presumably; I don't see Firaxis added a second Hebrew/Jewish/Israelite leader). Really just calling it "Israel" would be the fastest way to be done with it, but again, political baggage. Ooh, you know how we could make literally everyone unhappy? Jezebel for leader of Israel, using the adjective "Israeli" rather than "Israelite" with a Jericho III ICBM as a unique unit. BANNED IN EVERY COUNTRY.

That's true. For quite a while in Antiquity, "Hebrew" was not only the language, but the ethnicity, while such nearby ethnicities as Edomites, Moabites, Phoenicians, Shebans, Ethiopians, and, later Nebataeans, Carthaginians, and various Aramaic speakers were known to have significant numbers of members who also practiced the Jewish religion, but were not ethnically or culturally Hebrew. However, at some point around or shortly after the Diaspora, "Jew" became conflatable and interchangeable as a member of the ethnicity, culture, and religion in one.

Greeks, too. There's a reason the Septuagint exists. "Jew" became the ethnic term because after the Assyrian conquest of the Northern Kingdom/Israel/Samaria the tribes of Judah and Benjamin were the only ones left, and Judah far outnumbered Benjamin. (Though Jews still maintained the distinction: Paul the Apostle, for instance, was a Bemjaminite.)

 

[Patine]

Greeks, too.

And, of course, the Khazars, who do have strong evidence of significant amounts of their population, including probably a good chunk of their later ruling class, converting to Judaism - even bad stereotypes and conspiracy theories related to that coming out of Pan-German "scholars" completely aside.

 

[Stomper66]

Are you sure it wasn't simply for depicting an Islamic Prophet (Moses)? That's why Prince of Egypt was banned in Egypt, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.

That and for historical inaccuracies and the wrong portrayal of Moses from what I've read. I think Georgia is probably the civ most similar to how Judea would be in terms of their ability, unit and music. When I play as them I like to found Judaism with the Synagogue belief.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

And, of course, the Khazars, who do have strong evidence of significant amounts of their population, including probably a good chunk of their later ruling class, converting to Judaism - even bad stereotypes and conspiracy theories related to that coming out of Pan-German "scholars" completely aside.

Khazaria looks like another interesting choice and I'd like to learn more about their leaders. Bulan looks like the best choice right now from what i can tell since he's the one who led the conversion to Judaism.

 

[Zaarin]

I think Georgia is probably the civ most similar to how Judea would be in terms of their ability, unit and music.

That is a good point. Judah would probably be another defensive religious civ, though Tamar's golden age and city-state bonuses don't really fit well.

 

[Patine]

That is a good point. Judah would probably be another defensive religious civ, though Tamar's golden age and city-state bonuses don't really fit well.

Though the Hebrews in the time of the Judges (such as Deborah) were much more aggressive and expansionist, less prone to diplomacy, and more eager to just capture cities than convert people, I hate to say.

 

[Zaarin]

Though the Hebrews in the time of the Judges (such as Deborah) were much more aggressive and expansionist, less prone to diplomacy, and more eager to just capture cities than convert people, I hate to say.

The Jews were never very interested in converts and never really considered the proselytes as equals; it was certain Greeks who found their religion fascinating and were begrudgingly allowed "second-tier Jew" status. Most Orthodox and other conservative Jewish orders still aren't very open to converts.

 

[Morningcalm]

What about Josiah, king of Judah? He has the benefit of being praised by the Biblical chroniclers and being attested outside the Bible. Also, if the artists wanted to go for something extremely different from the other leaders, Josiah came to the throne at the age of eight. If they wanted to go with a Hasmonean and a woman to boot, there's also Salome Alexandra. There's also Athaliah if we need another "Black Queen." (IMO the best options for a female leader of Israel would be Salome Alexandra or Deborah.)

Josiah seems not well attested outside of the Bible. Hezekiah was a different story--extensive archaeological evidence, including in Assyrian records, and oddly the biblical narrative matches more or less with the Assyrian one too. Hezekiah created an alliance with Babylon and Egypt against Assyria, and while they ultimately failed, they did enjoy two major successes against the Assyrians (not counting Taharqo's initial defensive successes in Egypt in this either). And Assyrians never entered Jerusalem--even the Assyrian records don't mention any conquest of Jerusalem, simply painting a picture of it being surrounded and Hezekiah being made to pay tribute (which the Bible agrees he did).

Salome Alexandra would be a nice female leader choice. Choosing her would avoid also portraying Moses, David or Solomon (Muslim prophets) in-game.

 

[Zaarin]

Hezekiah works, too.

 

[Stomper66]

I've been playing as Carthage with the new middle east mod. They don't have TSL for Mod Civs yet so I had to spend 60 turns getting to the right spot (From India to North West Africa lol) but now I'm established I'm really enjoying this game. I really like this mod for Carthage but would love to see an official version of this civ in the next expansion.

The Carthage mod by Grey Tiger has three Carthaginian leaders to choose from. These are Dido, Hanno I and Hasdrubal I. They are okay as leaders and suit the civ well enough but personally I would like to see Hannibal Barca as leader. I'm no history expert but I studied about Hannibal when I was like 12 at school and he was this larger than life character who marched an army of elephants across the fricken alps! It was only until recently when I found out this guy was a military genius who decimated Legions and nearly ended the Roman Empire before it really began!

I know Hannibal was more of a General than a ruler but I think someone so Iconic of Carthage should be leading the civ. Below is an image of Hannibal that I really like and personally I would like the leader to be based on this likeness. If anyone else is a big fan of Carthage and has any interesting leader suggestions for Hannibals abilities or other possible leaders please feel free to comment.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Here is my idea of what Hannibal could look like:
Agenda: Second Punic War- Likes to maintain lots of active trade routes and have a large naval presence. Dislikes Civs that have more active trade routes and a larger naval presence. (This would tie in more with the Civ Ability being focused around trade and the unique unit and infrastructure.)
Father of Strategy- Units may travel faster if in range of a great general’s passive ability. Clearing a Barbarian Camp, or contacting a Tribal Village, can result in a unit appearing. Can produce the North African War Elephant UU.

 

[Zaarin]

I know Hannibal was more of a General than a ruler

Nah, he was a suffet and from a noble family. He's a great choice.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Nah, he was a suffet and from a noble family. He's a great choice.

Either way many great generals have been leaders including Hannibal: Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, George Washington, Alexander etc.