More Alternate Leaders?

[The Kingmaker]

Five other interesting Chinese leaders, just off the top of my head:

Wudi
Cao Cao
Taizong
Zhu Di (Yongle)
Xuanye (Kangxi)

Those are some of the most prominent rulers from the Han, Three Kingdoms, Tang, Ming and Qing dynasties, respectively.

 

[Zaarin]

Either Taizu or Gaozong of Song would be an interesting choice as well. Though China wasn't entirely unified under the Song, it presided over an explosion in population, far exceeding (doubling IIRC) the population of the Tang dynasty. They were also the first to introduce gunpowder weapons to Chinese warfare among other technological innovations.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Either Taizu or Gaozong of Song would be an interesting choice as well. Though China wasn't entirely unified under the Song, it presided over an explosion in population, far exceeding (doubling IIRC) the population of the Tang dynasty. They were also the first to introduce gunpowder weapons to Chinese warfare among other technological innovations.

Fire lances, eh? Fire lance cavalry, no less!

 

[Guandao]

Either Taizu or Gaozong of Song would be an interesting choice as well. Though China wasn't entirely unified under the Song, it presided over an explosion in population, far exceeding (doubling IIRC) the population of the Tang dynasty. They were also the first to introduce gunpowder weapons to Chinese warfare among other technological innovations.

Are you referring to the Jin/Liao/Western Xia states in the North? I actually find the periods of Chinese history in which it is divided more interesting than "united/expanding" periods. Sinicization is dull.

 

[Patine]

Are you referring to the Jin/Liao/Western Xia states in the North? I actually find the periods of Chinese history in which it is divided more interesting than "united/expanding" periods. Sinicization is dull.

"A wise man said, when China is divided, it must become unitied, and when it is united, it must become divided,"

-A quote attributed to a Confucian scholar and historian.

 

[Zaarin]

Are you referring to the Jin/Liao/Western Xia states in the North? I actually find the periods of Chinese history in which it is divided more interesting than "united/expanding" periods. Sinicization is dull.

I think the Tang were pretty awesome, but yeah, a divided China would be something interesting and different--and an excuse to include more Chinese leaders!

"A wise man said, when China is divided, it must become unitied, and when it is united, it must become divided,"

-A quote attributed to a Confucian scholar and historian.

Whoever said it, Chinese history has certainly born out the truth of it.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Five other interesting Chinese leaders, just off the top of my head:

Wudi
Cao Cao
Taizong
Zhu Di (Yongle)
Xuanye (Kangxi)

Those are some of the most prominent rulers from the Han, Three Kingdoms, Tang, Ming and Qing dynasties, respectively.

May I throw in an extra vote for Taizong?
On the one hand, he was a superb combat general leading a force of armored lancers ('knights' about 400 years early) while on the other hand, the Tang Dynasty of which he was the 2nd emperor I believe, is also considered to have been the peak of the Chinese poetic tradition (Guy Gavriel Kay refers to that tradition extensively in his superb Chinese-background fantasy novels). That presents a chance to toss a Military/Cultural Leader into the mix - and Sid Knows that's a rare combination!

I would prefer Brezhnev to Lenin as a Soviet leader, myself.

Brezhnev has only one thing to distinguish him: he was utterly corrupt and incompetent at everything he did.
He was a corrupt and incompetent Commissar during the war.
He was a corrupt and incompetent Minister after the war.
He was a corrupt and incompetent Leader of the Soviet State in the end - so corrupt that the entire economy had gone to the dogs by the time he died, and at the same time he had managed to put a bunch of his incompetent cronies in charge of the military so that they couldn't even manage an intervention in Poland when the Solidarity movement broke out. A Baleful Trifecta: our game I is already incompetent enough, thank you.

French Military Leader: Henry IV. Who was also Henry III of Navarre if you want another (more obscure) Double Entry Leader like Eleanor. Mind you, most of his victories were over other Frenchmen, but you gotta start somewhere...
Also, you have have a warm feeling about a leader who distilled his entire combat orders at the Battle of Ivry (1560) into this:

"I am your king. You are Frenchmen. There is the enemy. Charge!"

 

[Patine]

May I throw in an extra vote for Taizong?
On the one hand, he was a superb combat general leading a force of armored lancers ('knights' about 400 years early) while on the other hand, the Tang Dynasty of which he was the 2nd emperor I believe, is also considered to have been the peak of the Chinese poetic tradition (Guy Gavriel Kay refers to that tradition extensively in his superb Chinese-background fantasy novels). That presents a chance to toss a Military/Cultural Leader into the mix - and Sid Knows that's a rare combination!

I actually had been working on a detailed custom scenario campaign for the old Ensemble Studios RTS game (revived in a licensed Steam redux) Age of Empires II with Taizong as the PoV character during his campaigns against the Eastern and Western Turkic Khaqanates. A very intriguing and compelling leader in indeed. I'd have to a vote for him myself.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Taizong appeared in the Chinese version of Civ4 instead of Mao. He also appeared in CivRev2.

Now Cao Cao (pronounced Tsao Tsao, for anyone who may not know) would be very interesting—playing China as a warlord rather than an emperor.

He’s already developed his own considerable popularity in other games too:

 

[Patine]

Taizong appeared in the Chinese version of Civ4 instead of Mao. He also appeared in CivRev2.

Now Cao Cao (pronounced Tsao Tsao, for anyone who may not know) would be very interesting—playing China as a warlord rather than an emperor.

He’s already developed his own considerable popularity in other games too:

Funny thing is, I've never played Civ4 or Civ5, or the CivCol, CivRev, or Beyond Earth games based on them, myself (I think I had a Civ4 free demo once). I've played Civ1, Civ2, Civ2:ToT, the original Colonization for DoS, Civ3, and Alpha Centauri, and I poked my head back out to have a look at Civ6. So, I'm not really familiar with who appeared in Civ4 and Civ5 and how they were portrayed, to be honest.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Funny thing is, I've never played Civ4 or Civ5, or the CivCol, CivRev, or Beyond Earth games based on them, myself (I think I had a Civ4 free demo once). I've played Civ1, Civ2, Civ2:ToT, the original Colonization for DoS, Civ3, and Alpha Centauri, and I poked my head back out to have a look at Civ6. So, I'm not really familiar with who appeared in Civ4 and Civ5 and how they were portrayed, to be honest.

There’s a chart in my signature. I still need to update it for Civ6, but it’s got all the Civs and leaders listed for Civs 1-5.

 

[Jkchart]

All of these Chinese leader suggestions are A+.

I am glad they went with Qin as the first representative this game for the Civ, but I'm really hoping we get one of these other people as well. 6000 years of Chinese history and largely being limited to Mao and Qin occassionally (plus Wu Zetian once/twice if she was the Civ II female) is pretty disappointing.

 

[Uberfrog]

All of these Chinese leader suggestions are A+.

I am glad they went with Qin as the first representative this game for the Civ, but I'm really hoping we get one of these other people as well. 6000 years of Chinese history and largely being limited to Mao and Qin occassionally (plus Wu Zetian once/twice if she was the Civ II female) is pretty disappointing.

China is a glaring example, but all the series staple civs seem to suffer from a similar lack of imagination in terms of leaders.

 

[The Kingmaker]

China is a glaring example, but all the series staple civs seem to suffer from a similar lack of imagination in terms of leaders.

Ed Beach disrupted most of them from the usual suspects:

Teddy instead of George or Abe.
Vicky instead of Good Queen Bess.
Barbarossa instead of Bismarck.
Catherine instead of Old Nap.
Philip instead of Izzy.
Hojo instead of Tokugawa or Oda.
Qin instead of Mao (or Wu).
Peter instead of Cathy.
Trajan instead of either of the Caesars.

In those instances where they didn’t just introduce a new leader outright, they went back to the alt leaders from Civ4 to be the mainstays this time.

 

[Zaarin]

China is a glaring example, but all the series staple civs seem to suffer from a similar lack of imagination in terms of leaders.

That's why I love Hojo Tokimune so much.

Vicky instead of Good Queen Bess.

We had the misfortune of having Victoria in Civ4, but there she was at least an also. England has a lot of interesting leaders who actually ruled, so I hope we don't get Victoria again. Her poor animations, flat voice acting, and inaccurate personality in Civ6 don't exactly make her more endearing, either.

Trajan instead of either of the Caesars.

I hope we continue to see not-Caesar lead Rome. Septimius Severus for Imperator in Civ7, just so we can enjoy a Carthaginian Roman emperor.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Ed Beach disrupted most of them from the usual suspects:

Teddy instead of George or Abe.
Vicky instead of Good Queen Bess.
Barbarossa instead of Bismarck.
Catherine instead of Old Nap.
Philip instead of Izzy.
Hojo instead of Tokugawa or Oda.
Qin instead of Mao (or Wu).
Peter instead of Cathy.
Trajan instead of either of the Caesars.

In those instances where they didn’t just introduce a new leader outright, they went back to the alt leaders from Civ4 to be the mainstays this time.

As I've observed elsewhere, they really seemed to be aiming for "personifications" of nations rather than "leaders" this time around. Which, in the case of Vicky (and, yes, Tomyris and Gilgabro) and to some extent Philip and Peter, they were pretty spot on. I mean nothing screams "largest global empire" like "Victory-incarnate."

And I think Qin Shi Huang is up there with Vicky for one of, if not the best, "personifications" of a civ. It started with the Qin dynasty, and to this day it is called "Qin-a." Bonus points for the brilliant choice of making the ancient theme instrument a qin as well. In that respect, I don't think the choice uncreative at all, because it allowed for such a comprehensively layered art direction for China.

We had the misfortune of having Victoria in Civ4, but there she was at least an also. England has a lot of interesting leaders who actually ruled, so I hope we don't get Victoria again. Her poor animations, flat voice acting, and inaccurate personality in Civ6 don't exactly make her more endearing, either.

Yeah there was a bit of Elizabethan bleed over. But I give Victoria a pass, if only because I have a soft spot for The Young Victoria. A thoroughly unhistorical but charming af period romance.

I hope we continue to see not-Caesar lead Rome. Septimius Severus for Imperator in Civ7, just so we can enjoy a Carthaginian Roman emperor.

And yet you dislike Cleopatra as the default Egyptian leader.

Okay, here is a tangentially related question to alt leaders:

We're not likely to get any DLC civs released with two leaders upfront, although I'm sure several ideas could work (Gurkha with Timur and Nur Jahan, Goths with Alaric and Amalasuntha, etc.). But let's presume no new civ will get two leaders. If Ethiopia is added, we have three very different empires they could choose from. So, between Ethiopia, Aksum, or Sabaea, which one leader do you think they will go with?

I keep waffling back and forth on the idea, but I think I would prefer we get Ezana or Makeda to catch a bit of Yemeni representation. Then I could just wait for a mod to remove Nubia from the game. Or, do you think Ethiopia may get two leaders anyway?

 

[The Kingmaker]

I doubt Ethiopia would get two leaders. I wonder if they’ll consider Yodit/Gudit, the warrior queen who led the revolt that despoiled Aksum.

 

[Jkchart]

I doubt Ethiopia would get two leaders. I wonder if they’ll consider Yodit/Gudit, the warrior queen who led the revolt that despoiled Aksum.

She would be cool; and it would also be an opportunity to have another Jewish leader (since some sources say she is Jewish)

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I doubt Ethiopia would get two leaders. I wonder if they’ll consider Yodit/Gudit, the warrior queen who led the revolt that despoiled Aksum.

I don't think we will get a warrior queen right next door to Amanitore. I definitely think Ethiopia will be led by a cultural, diplomatic, or religious leader.

 

[The Kingmaker]

They haven’t even given us a TSL Africa map yet. Here’s hoping they decide to.