Morocco

[azum4roll]

You want to pillage trade units where they can't see you, so you don't get the diplomatic penalty.

 

[chicorbeef]

I think the pillaging TR's without declaring war can go. It pisses off AI's and it's not really worth it as a human but is super annoying to play against.

 

[pineappledan]

The pillaging TR thing is cool and I like it. We pushed super hard to get some barbary coast piracy into the kit. If something should go, it is the TR distance ignoring part. No good reason to have 2 TR boosts in the same kit.

 

[myeong1129]

If other civs block your access to the rest of the map or you are near warmongers, which permanently threaten your trade units, Morocco is not really that funny.

Never saw that to actually work though. As trade routes to Morocco are attractive to its neighbors also, it was hard to expect them to attack Morocco in early game. Probably the fact that current version's AI prefers peace in early game also affect it.

I really wonder why no one else is complaining about Morocco when it always appears to be outperforming and ruining my most games. I've experienced it since last year that I had to ban Morocco from appearing using Really Advanced Setup until I installed the newest version in this September. As you say that Morocco's distance penalty did not look overpowered to you, now I wonder that if my game settings make AI Morocco particularly strong. My favorite is to play in standard sized Hemispheres with 8 civs, with standard speed. All I could say is just give it a try and you will see what I mean. I'm currently playing my new game with their TR distance ability removed, and still Morocco's earning is in the first place thanks to their insanely powerful UI. (400+ in Renaissance when #2 earns 200)

I personally think their pillaging ability should remain as it is what makes them unique (although I've never seen AI using it) but I really wish if the distance ability could be removed. Also I kinda wanna question if Kasbah is a balanced UI. I think it's quite broken too. It is basically +7 improvement with well balanced yields including food and prod, but to consider that it gets additional food or prod from the feature, it could go up to +8~9 even from the beginning. With help of buildings (e.g. Workshop or University) or resources it could go even stronger before it gets the first tech bonus. Not only that, since its yields are balanced, it does a good job in controlling unhappiness. Compared to other UIs, Kasbah's construction condition is far easier to be met too, since other UIs should be built avoiding the resources while considering their own conditions too, when Kasbah doesn't give a sh as long as the tile's nearby a city. So when 4~6 Kasbahs could be built per city, other improvements couldn't really be built that many in my experience. Not to mention that it gives more defensive bonus than the Encampment while making more yields than it. The only disadvantage is its late tech, but still other late UIs like Cheateau or Hacienda doesn't look better than this one. Idk what others would think but I think Kasbah really has all the merits that a single UI could possibly have.

 

[stii]

So are you actually losing to Morocco? Because the AI having a huge income isn't intrinsically a problem, it only matters what they do with the advantage. Gold is pretty capped on what you can do with it, it isn't that easy to convert into science/culture and the AI is certainly worse than a human at it.

I guess Kasbah might be the best UI but a mid game boost needs to be really strong to compete with early game bonuses.

 

[myeong1129]

So are you actually losing to Morocco? Because the AI having a huge income isn't intrinsically a problem, it only matters what they do with the advantage.

By outperforming I meant they were leading in basically everything. Culture, tech, and even tourism. I mentioned gold output simply because the gap between them and the second place was always around twice, which was the yield I never saw from Carthage or Venice in other games.

As they were already finished with every building and were pumping science and culture when I looked them through IGE, I assumed that they were spamming their gold to quickly finish off the construction and snowball. Yes, I lost to them in Emperor difficulty last game. They already became influential with every civs by the time they enter Atomic era, and they had around 7 tenets opened for their Order. And they were beating the crap out of Mongolia next to them. So I just lost the will to play and surrender. Their performance was just so outstanding that if anyone tells me it's a bug then I would be convinced. But since I've experienced similar games with Morocco for several times already, I thought that it's more about their design rather than coincidence.

You could find me saying this same thing about Morocco in November patch last year. That time I received same comments that Morocco is weak in early game, but from my play through at least, it only made sense in theory. If it's multiplayer, us human knows what to do. But no AI really keep Morocco in check until they become the first place and become unstoppable. As no one really seem to share similar experience may be I should increase AI aggressiveness and try playing again...

 

[stii]

By outperforming I meant they were leading in basically everything. Culture, tech, and even tourism. I mentioned gold output simply because the gap between them and the second place was always around twice, which was the yield I never saw from Carthage or Venice in other games.

As they were already finished with every building and were pumping science and culture when I looked them through IGE, I assumed that they were spamming their gold to quickly finish off the construction and snowball. Yes, I lost to them in Emperor difficulty last game. They already became influential with every civs by the time they enter Atomic era, and they had around 7 tenets opened for their Order. And they were beating the crap out of Mongolia next to them. So I just lost the will to play and surrender. Their performance was just so outstanding that if anyone tells me it's a bug then I would be convinced. But since I've experienced similar games with Morocco for several times already, I thought that it's more about their design rather than coincidence.

You could find me saying this same thing about Morocco in November patch last year. That time I received same comments that Morocco is weak in early game, but from my play through at least, it only made sense in theory. If it's multiplayer, us human knows what to do. But no AI really keep Morocco in check until they become the first place and become unstoppable. As no one really seem to share similar experience may be I should increase AI aggressiveness and try playing again...

I think the problem is everyone is playing on different maps and difficulties so it changes so much. I've never had a issue like this with Morocco, or at least repeatedly. It is certainly possible for some types of AI on the other side of the map going crazy and you need to work out how to deal with that if you play types of maps that leaves you a long way from them.

That said you can be a long way behind the AI and still win. In one of the group play games on this forum I was a good ten techs behind the first place player and still managed to beat them.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

The pillaging TR thing is cool and I like it. We pushed super hard to get some barbary coast piracy into the kit. If something should go, it is the TR distance ignoring part. No good reason to have 2 TR boosts in the same kit.

Best solution:
Simple remove the distance penalty mechanic.
I am pretty sure, 80% of the players starting after its introduction not even know it exists.....Its only another unnecessary layer of complexity which didnt add anything in gameplay/fun. Most people will simply sort the list for the most yields and pick the best offer, and its done.

By outperforming I meant they were leading in basically everything. Culture, tech, and even tourism. I mentioned gold output simply because the gap between them and the second place was always around twice, which was the yield I never saw from Carthage or Venice in other games.

I see it like this:
Everybody wants to be like the Morocco you mentioned. Successful, leading in everything and winning the game.
If a human has reached that status, he is proud of himself and nothing is wrong in beeing the leader and letting all others in the dust. Its totally ok, if a human do this.
But from time to time an AI reach the same status, and now, something has to be completly wrong..... I ask why?
Why has to be something wrong, if an AI is simply doing the same thing and be good in it?

 

[myeong1129]

But from time to time an AI reach the same status, and now, something has to be completly wrong..... I ask why?
Why has to be something wrong, if an AI is simply doing the same thing and be good in it?

That sounds quite offensive to me to be honest. That sounds like I'm complaining and acting like a child simply because I can't perform as good as AI and that shouldn't be happening to me, but look. If the civs reach such status were different time by time, then I wouldn't have to complain. I would rather just go one difficulty down and play some easy happy game, consider that AI to be having a lucky start, or find for the other reasons like religion beliefs or policies rather than the civ itself. But if I see one specific civ to overwhelm everybody every single time that it appears in my game, how couldn't I assume that there's something wrong with its balance?

I've been playing this mod for pretty long time and I've also played Morocco for few times. In my opinion, the profit from ignoring TR distance modifier was pretty strong even in early part of the game, and their UI was simply with the greatest options of all time. I've had that in my mind for a long time but I chose to personally ban Morocco from appearing rather than to speak up, as I expected that at some point it would get a patch. But then I found out that it hasn't changed at all even in recent patch, so I chose to speak up and share my opinion here. I was just giving examples with my last game simply because it was easiest to recall the details. As no one seems to experience similar issue with me I'll just go mod it myself. I wont mind you giving disagreements about my comment that Morocco's early weakness is only right in theory, but I'm not here to learn such lesson from you.

I think the problem is everyone is playing on different maps and difficulties so it changes so much. I've never had a issue like this with Morocco, or at least repeatedly.

As you also say you experience nothing special with Morocco, then may be it has something to do with my settings... In my current game he's been competing for the 1st place with Japan even though I've removed his TR distance ability (not showing overwhelming performance as before though) and now I come to think that he's strong because his AI personality and Kasbah made so good synergy and my settings kinda provide a good background for it. I'd better play few more times but at least for now I feel like removal of TR ability made it more balanced for my setting. Just succeeded to achieve diplo victory before Moroccan tourism overwhelm one last civ standing. For this time I agree with your comment that you can still win even though you're behind in every yield. But for the last game I would say it was literally impossible since it was leading too far as if it's playing in different speed...


Thanks for your opinions anyways.

 

[InkAxis]

I don't think the TR distance ability is essential to the kit, if we want to nerf Morocco it would be a good place to start.

 

[pineappledan]

If that trade distance thing were to be removed from Morocco, I think it would make a lot more sense on Ottomans. The Ottomans are incentivized to make the shortest trade routes possible, because their UA focuses on completion bonuses, so they are specifically and uniquely penalized by the distance modifier.

 

[cerk]

How do people use the extended trade route ability? I do not send external trade routes until renaissance and even then send it only to vassals because trade routes get plundered all the time.

Yes the Kasbah is amazing, but the TR pillage does not look human friendly either and I don't know how effective the +1 yields is.

 

[cerk]

Anecdata, I defeated peak Morocco in both diplomacy and cultural victory at King difficulty and standard speed, without warring so its not too bad. As you can see, I also have more GPT than Morocco.

Spoiler stats :

 

[Stalker0]

Whether Morocco is top of the civs I could debate, but I think it’s clear they are in a high tier; and so a small nerf wouldn’t unbalance them.

I think the distance modifier could go, and frankly Morocco would still be amazing because the kasbah is the best UI in the game.

the trade pillage i think is more debatable. I personally think it’s annoying but i do respect it’s a unique element of the civ, and so more controversial. The TR distance element isn’t particularly interesting and is easily removed, so I would have no issue seeing it go

 

[Delvemor]

This is just some anecdotal evidence from my games but Morocco is the only civ allowing me to win consistently on Immortal without too much effort. If I do the same with Siam or Austria picking the same policies and ideology, it just doesn't work nearly as well. I believe the yields per unique trade partner scaling with era is deceptively strong, probably stronger than the distance element because it does make a very significant difference in the early game. It even helps with founding a religion. But the biggest factor would be how much gpt you can make with them in the mid to late game, sometimes over 3k gpt during a golden age and a WLTKD in all cities following your religion with Theocratic Rule (+15% faith, culture and gold during a WLTKD).

The Kasbah not only give balanced yields which help with happiness, but can also justifies founding a city in a place that would probably not be worth it for most other civs, thus allowing further expansion with pioneers and colonists.

The Berber Cavalry is also a very good defensive unit in rough terrain, available at a time when you're very likely to be attacked by at least one warmonger.

The only weakness of Morocco is to early game aggression, but it can be circumvented by careful city placement. Not only that, it seems the typical warmongers have been unusually friendly recently.

If that trade distance thing were to be removed from Morocco, I think it would make a lot more sense on Ottomans. The Ottomans are incentivized to make the shortest trade routes possible, because their UA focuses on completion bonuses, so they are specifically and uniquely penalized by the distance modifier.

If enough people believe Morocco should be nerfed, that change there would make sense. It would reduce the insane amount of gold you can make in the late game.

 

[stii]

I think that level of balancing is unneeded. Some civs will always be better than others and that is fine. Some fit playstyles better for different people too.

Changing the TR distance for flavour is fine but overall I think Morocco is a bit above average but not in the top 20%ish of best civs, so nerfing seems a bit un-needed.

Having a spread of power level civs lets peopel adjust difficulty too. The best to worse is probably a full difficulty, even ignoring the broken top and bottom civs.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Having a spread of power level civs lets peopel adjust difficulty too. The best to worse is probably a full difficulty, even ignoring the broken top and bottom civs.

Fully agree, I like to do this.