Most Important SE Asian Civ?

[Huayna Capac357]

It's much easier to think of landmarks for other SE Asian civs than Vietnam.

Burma: Shwedagon Paya
Khmers: Angkor Wat
Indonesia: Borbudur
Thailand: Canals of Bangkok?
Malaysia: Petronas Towers

 

[cybrxkhan]

Vietnam has many landmarks no other, or very very very few other countries could get:

- Beat the crap out of the Mongols (built c. 1250)
- Beat the crap out of the Americans (built c. 1975)

for example.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

You know, there are a lot of Americans who play civ that would rather forget that

 

[cybrxkhan]

True. But, anyhow, my point is, Vietnam DOES have good nice monuments. We even built a Vietnamese version of the Forbidden Palace. However, all our cultural and such achievements have been overshadowed by our military achievements, for better or worse. We aren't just a militaristic people...

 

[AznWarlord]

Malaysia. They've got the Petronas Towers and that really tall Spire thingy.

 

[Tee Kay]

It's much easier to think of landmarks for other SE Asian civs than Vietnam.

Burma: Shwedagon Paya
Khmers: Angkor Wat
Indonesia: Borbudur
Thailand: Canals of Bangkok?
Malaysia: Petronas Towers

Besides the Canal (Bangkok was known as Venice of the East at one stage. Now it's more like Los Angeles. They even have the same name - city of angels. If there's any angels over either city at this moment they would likely suffocate) there's also the Grand Palace, and the Wats of Ayutthaya.

 

[ConanKND]

I won't think of Bangkok's now few existing canals as THE landmark of Thailand, you know. Maybe the Grand Palace and the Temple of the Emerald Buddha fits better. Or if you want to keep the water theme, the Chao Phraya River can be a good candidate. Chiangmai and Phuket, although not having a single distinctive thing, are also interesting places too. (Please no Pattaya suggestions, that place is now having a negative image associated with it. Most Thai people don't go to Pattaya if they want to go to the beach. Other parts of the Eastern Seaboard or bost Southern coasts are much better. Right now Pattaya is a foreigner's city.)

But you gotta admit Vietnam have has its own moments too. Before French Indochina was created, Vietnam and Siam was fighting over what was left of Cambodia, and the results weren't clear. So Thailand may not be the obvious answer, Vietnam follows not far. But the problem with Vietnam (Dai Viet), or whatever, is that it's not exactly Southeast Asian. I think it's an East Asian country located in a wrong place.

 

[cybrxkhan]

As I said before, Vietnam gots its buildings too, but, come on, what do you think is more interesting to pop culture - some old rickety palace, or a bunch of little short guys beating the crap out of world powers?

 

[Huayna Capac357]

As I said before, Vietnam gots its buildings too, but, come on, what do you think is more interesting to pop culture - some old rickety palace, or a bunch of little short guys beating the crap out of world powers?

True. (Since I have to have more than 10 characters, I'm putting this in.)

 

[Tee Kay]

As I said before, Vietnam gots its buildings too, but, come on, what do you think is more interesting to pop culture - some old rickety palace, or a bunch of little short guys beating the crap out of world powers?

The Thais did too! They're the only people who managed to maintain independence while other countries became "protectorates", and did it diplomatically too.

 

[cybrxkhan]

^ah, but i never heard of a Thai army beating the crap out of world powers including America, France, China (at least 5 times), Mongolia... Oh, we beat you Thais too, once.

But Thailand gets the thumbs up for being the only SE Asian country to be completely free from European control for all of historyl.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

^ah, but i never heard of a Thai army beating the crap out of world powers including America, France, China (at least 5 times), Mongolia... Oh, we beat you Thais too, once.

But Thailand gets the thumbs up for being the only SE Asian country to be completely free from European control for all of historyl.

Well I think China certainly got to you since you mentioned you built your own Forbidden palace.

 

[cybrxkhan]

^yup. China's Vietnam's big brother, why WOULDNT we?

 

[aronnax]

^yup. China's Vietnam's big brother, why WOULDNT we?

I always thought it was more like a teacher-student relationship

 

[cybrxkhan]

^not really. most people think of it as "big brother little brother", but I think of it as "big brother little sister".

Goes like this:

Big brother China is big brother to all his East Asian siblings... loyal Korea, reserved and stubborn Japan, plain annoying Mongolia, and... ah... cute little Vietnam.

Of course, China loves all its siblings, Vietnam too, but sometimes its just too overprotective and overpossessive. So, Vietnam, naturally, has to kick China out all the time.

 

[aronnax]

So.....
Korea is the annoying suck-up little brother
Japan is the emo-kid always locking himself in his room
Mongolia is the ravage bull-dog tied up at the back that once got loose for 200 years
Singapore and Hong Kong are the children sent to a European boarding school
Vietnam is the rebellious teenager with alot of awanted facial hair who wants his "personal space"
and Macau is a hippie.

 

[cybrxkhan]

So.....
Korea is the annoying suck-up little brother
Japan is the emo-kid always locking himself in his room
Mongolia is the ravage bull-dog tied up at the back that once got loose for 200 years
Singapore and Hong Kong are the children sent to a European boarding school
Vietnam is the rebellious teenager with alot of awanted facial hair who wants his "personal space"
and Macau is a hippie.

no, Vietnam is good affectionate little girl who has a hidden... er... very very very violent personality.


anyhow, back on topic, China's influence on the OTHER SE Asian civs was more political (and economical to a degree) than cultural. You won't see any Thai in the good old days worshipping Confucius, but you will see them paying tribute if the Emperor demands it.

 

[aronnax]

no, Vietnam is good affectionate little girl who has a hidden... er... very very very violent personality.

Is that why China keeps coming over to um...invade her and fight through her jungle....

 

[cybrxkhan]

^yes. China likes us a lot.

Every major Chinese dynasty (and many minor ones too!) have either sent a large invasion to us, or dealt with a nasty rebellion.

During the "1000" year occupation by China, a number of rebellions took place. Some of the most famous/sucessful:

- Trung sisters (40 - 43 CE). Two little girls, riding on an elephant essentially. they are practically our greatest national heroes.

- Trieu Tri Thinh (c. 220 CE). It is not sure whether she actually existed, but shes another one of our great national heroes.

- Early Ly Dynasty (c. 500 - 600 CE). The Chinese were actually finally kicked out for about a half a century and a little more. They didn't like that at all.

- Ngo Quyen (c. 930 CE). Finally, the Chinese finally get kicked out by this guy. Too bad he wasn't a woman.


Anyhow, a number of early Vietnamese (military) heroes are, as one can see, female. Why? It is not entirely known, but it is supposed that in the early days, before massive Chinese influence, that Vietnamese society was a matriarchy (just a little better than the Amazons) - or, at the least, one where women were quiet powerful. Even after the Chinese came to influence us, Vietnam was in fact, despite following China's organizational structure culturaly and politically very closely, retained a degree of a liberal attitude. For example, there was arranged marriages, but, however, the choosing of who to marry who was more lenient then in China - there were more cases of kids marrying someone their own age than a little girl marrying someone old enough to be her grandfather.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

Anyhow, a number of early Vietnamese (military) heroes are, as one can see, female. Why? It is not entirely known, but it is supposed that in the early days, before massive Chinese influence, that Vietnamese society was a matriarchy (just a little better than the Amazons) - or, at the least, one where women were quiet powerful. Even after the Chinese came to influence us, Vietnam was in fact, despite following China's organizational structure culturaly and politically very closely, retained a degree of a liberal attitude. For example, there was arranged marriages, but, however, the choosing of who to marry who was more lenient then in China - there were more cases of kids marrying someone their own age than a little girl marrying someone old enough to be her grandfather.

Simply because Southeast asian men are lazy ignorant bums and southeast asian women are hardworking. Go to Singapore and see all the malay men sleeping and smoking and the women working.

Actually I think the power of women in south east asia is nothing short of remarkable looking at the influence of India and China. In India women were worse than death they jumped into the funeral pyre of their husbands. In china they were disasters to a family only more debt from dowry and property to be shipped off as a concubine or baby making machine. I think Buddhism's dominance and the actual general hardworking ethic of women over lazy men play roles in this.