Moved up to Noble? Depressed? Not me!

[Kranden]

Agreed. But it gets pretty boring when you win all of the time.

And that's why Emperor kicks ass, I'm only winning at most 50% of my games. And I still haven't beaten Immortal! ARRGH! but you gotta keep trying! Don't give up and have fun!

As for some help I recommend you learn to whip and micromanage your Workers don't automate.

Also IMO Cultural, Diplo, space race are hollow victories.

This is what I would do in real life if my Enemy declared a Diplo Victory.

Guy: BTW evyboddy I am presdent of teh world

Then I launch 50 ICBM's at him!

 

[PreLynMax]

Agreed. But it gets pretty boring when you win all of the time.

Speak for yourself.
I throw the DVD out the window along with my PC if I don't win.
Yes, you can say I got a temper.

And I never, ever, ever WIN at Noble even with micromanaging and specialist city building.

Edit: My nephew hates it when I start his games with the workers non-automated, but he plays at (smirk) Settler.

 

[Fezfez]

With me depents alot on my play style. When I go for aggressive (conquest/Domination) I can beat prince most of the time, but when I try it a bit more friendly (culture/diplomatic/space) I'm having trouble with noble. Still can win here but not nearly as much with aggressive prince.

Anyways, even when losing I also still enjoy the game (I can get annoyed when losing where I should win). For some reason I also fall back on this game after trying something else. Think the reason is that civ is the only game with enough dept even after you play it a long long time.

 

[mushutoku]

Also IMO Cultural, Diplo, space race are hollow victories.

This is what I would do in real life if my Enemy declared a Diplo Victory.

Guy: BTW evyboddy I am presdent of teh world

Then I launch 50 ICBM's at him!

Hollow? I do not think so. Do not underestimate the power of culture. The mongols could and actually did conquer the world in the XIII century. But where are them now? Did their empire last? No.
The greeks did not conquer anything (Alexander the Great was Macedonian, not greek, sorry Alex), but hey, how much of the western civilization is from that puny peninsula? The USA are proud of their democracy: democracy is an idea coming from Greece, thanks to its superior culture.
I can give many example more but be sure of one thing: guns can shot philosophers, but no one would remind them in the future.

 

[Methos]

Moderator Action: This is an internation forum and we do not allow posters to correct grammar and spelling mistakes. Don't do it!
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Kranden]

I think you mean International Methos!
I KID I KID!!!!

Warning this post may offend you! (but I mean no offense I swear!)

But mushutoku you have to remember that raw power can erase history. Censorship and strict government control influences culture more than culture influences military and government. A little known fact is that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson both grew hemp. Ben Franklin owned a mill that made hemp paper. Jefferson drafted the Declaration of Independence on hemp paper. Is this fact in history books or known by the general public? I mean these are our founding fathers and most people know that George Washington was a farmer but I bet that almost nobody knew that he grew hemp(not Marijuana! industrial hemp) Current powers always erase history with history. If the Germans had won world war 2 do you think their history books would have talked about the Holocaust? Doubtful.

Also For example (no offense to any religions) there have been countless religions in history but for the most part only those that were aggressive in military control have survived to the current day. Judea-Christianity is a prime example of this. Countless wars have been fought over gods and cultural beliefs but its the winners who write the history books and determine the dominant culture.

Its not that culture is not important, its just that old culture is usually quickly dominated by new culture. For example you don't see people wearing old English style clothes and wigs anymore even though it was the norm at the time. Language is constantly changing, if you looked at some OLD old English you would not even be able to understand what the heck they are even talking about.

Culture in my opinion has turned into what I call junk culture. Culture that will most likely not last a few hundred years. Styles of clothes, language, music, politics, religion. These are constantly changing and being replaced by newer cultural trends fitted for consumerism. Once the market no longer demands that culture it is quickly replaced. The ancient Egyptians had an extremely complex culture and religion and today all that remains are ruins of ancient cities, a testament to their greatness. But nobody practices old Egyptian religion. As for history their cultural significance is akin to their ancient tombs. Just old memories. And as for old surviving culture? Latin is a good example of that. It is consolidated into the current culture and loses its original cultural meaning because its consumed by the dominant culture and turned into whatever that culture desires. If you were to ask any of your African American friends what their family's culture was like back in Africa I doubt most of them could tell you because their culture was destroyed and assimilated into US slavery institutions.

If two guys are arguing about their different cultural norms I would put my money on the one with the gun.

 

[Methos]

I think you mean International Methos!
I KID I KID!!!!

Now that's hilarious!

 

[mystikx21]

I'm pretty sure the Nazi German textbooks for history would have referred to the Holocaust if they had won, but in a very different light than the rest of the civilized world does now. Based on much of what they wrote, and they kept plenty of records on which to draw from, Nazis saw the purging of the Jewish people et al as a favor for their eventual Aryan progeny. There are similar dynamics in things like the Armenian genocide in WW1, Rwanda, Bosnia, etc. These wouldn't necessarily have been things to cover up, but rather celebrated points of history for the victor. The Germans would however have erased the importance or contribution of people like Einstein or Marx (certainly Einstein, Nazis didn't like Marx much anyway).

Your essential point was accurate, the guy (and of course, it is usually a man, Catherine or Elizabeth not withstanding) who wins the war gets to write the history books. Even Genghis and subsequent Khans hauled off scribes and scholars to enrich their empire and record their deeds. At the cost of being "subverted" internally into Chinese or Muslim traditions, but "culture" does seem to be necessary even for a conqueror type. It tightens the hold on the people who are ruled by providing a common set of history/values, or in CIV terms, pops the borders and keeps out those pesky settlers claiming good lands. The costs of a consumerism culture I need not get into. Ack will suffice.

As far as the actual point of the thread, with the better AI mod I've been hard pressed on Monarch at times. But I think I still win about 50% of my games. Those culture/space victories are pretty easy to come by. Trying to get virtually all of them (other than time/conquest) at once, now that's hard. At least without mining+sushi, then it's easy. I'm not sure I ever played a game on Noble, but losing a lot did happen when I first picked up the game and had to adapt from CIV3 in order to move up the difficulty chains. And it was still fun.

 

[mushutoku]

Kranden,
I got your point, and I think you are right. Culture changes, and it does very quickly in our time. It is true that most of the so called "culture" of nowadays is just consumerism (mispelled? Sorry, I am just a macaroni....). Something that is not going to last much, I am afraid.
I will bet on the guy with the gun as well, returning to your example...but I also know that to make that gun, the guy must have learnt how..and this is culture too. You need some level of literacy, to write the proyect of the gun...and to read it.
It is true, on the other side, that culture travels often with guns...western civilization literally conquered its place in the world thanks to its more advanced weaponry against much older but quieter civilization (China, India...)
But we have at least one example of "loser" civilization that anyway survived: I mean the Jewish. They never ruled an empire, being subject of Assyria, Persia, Selucid, Roman empire in the ancient times, till they were dispersed by the romans trough all the Mediterranean world. One would expect that their culture would have been absorbed by their conqueror, but not! They not only survived the romans, that felt, but they are thriving now, 2000 years after.
They were persecuted by many, if not all, of their neighbours meanwhile, but they survived. I think this is an example of how a culture can manage to, in the long period, overtrhow mere force. Poland is another one, in more modern times.
I repeat: you can conquer a city and make their inhabitants swear allegiance to you, but if they are stubborn enough to keep thinking they are RIGHT even if their army lost, nothing you can do, they will finally "win"

Thank for the interesting post, BTW.
It is always nice to have a conversation with an intelligent person!

 

[Shylock76]

LemonMerchant:

Great attitude to have and i share the same, as evidently do many players out there. If i can get the win, great, but more often than not i struggle on Noble but am more interested in the global and regional pictures and try and manage smaller goals....whether that be not being swallowed up by my militarily superior neighbour or developing my nation in the way i want. I have won the odd time victory and space victory but these are inconsequential to the game experience imho.

While i recognise the skills of those that can get scores in the 10's of thousands and end the game in the 3rd century it would bore me if the game wrapped up this quick. Ive played Civ since Civ I and to me its been all about the expanse of time and history, how nations, alliances develop and the shifting complexities that history throws up.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

LemonMerchant:

Great attitude to have and i share the same, as evidently do many players out there.

Makes it a bit more fun, doesn't it?

While i recognise the skills of those that can get scores in the 10's of thousands and end the game in the 3rd century it would bore me if the game wrapped up this quick.

I've never won a game earlier than the 1800's. I've lost a few much earlier! I actually enjoy the modern era. By that time I have a killer economy, lots of money, and a pretty big military. Sometimes I even have a few vassals. Then we do some door knocking...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I edit my grammar mistakes out all the time!!!!!!!!

...oh wait. OTHER people's mistakes. Right. I don't have a platform to throw stones from, I'd fall off like a flimsy contestant on "american gladiator".

Cheesy wins are great, especially AP abuse. I don't really consider them "cheesy" in such a sense though as you usually need strategy and timing to pull most of them off properly, even the dreaded warrior rush on prince and below .

Lemon, if you care to improve (it's understandable if you're happy at your difficulty level and it doesn't matter), you should check out the NUMEROUS walkthroughs players post on the strategy & tips subforum, there's games of all levels there and plenty of opportunity to participate yourself and gain input if you so choose! That's what's carried me past emperor thus far after joining the forums @ warlord.

The most brainless way to tech better is cottages. If you want to jump up a level or two, try this out:

3 kinds of cities:

1. Hammers. These mine hills and get enough food to work them. They get a border pop, a barracks, and production multipliers. Then, they build units.
2. Commerce. This are the majority of your cities. They work food special tiles, then work cottages, preferably riverside. They get buildings that multiply science and gold. If your science slider is high, prioritize library/university/observatory, if low market/grocer/bank.
3. Great person. Just make 1 of these, 2 at most if playing this way. These cities run as many farms and food tiles as possible to assign specialists to create great people. National Epic in this city obviously.

That's it. Just those 3.

Tech path includes getting enough happiness to grow your cities, techs that give you some military presence, and techs that you can trade with the AIs (I.E. they don't have the tech).

If you REALLY don't want to think, just run scientists off a library for an early great scientist and put an academy your best "commerce" city, often the capitol. You may even want to use the capitol for this first guy. Then just run scientists in the "great person farm" city (switch to caste when done with slavery) and use them to bulb:

Philosophy if you can trade it (edit, the civic can be useful if you're not at risk running religion, but also consider OR)
Education
Possibly liberalism

If you do the above and expand at a reasonable rate (block off AIs, specialize cities), you'll tech at an amazing rate.

I win with something similar very frequently on emperor. Of course you can adjust to the map - on a recent map I saw the incans had no metal and sword-rushed them just before feudalism. Bulbing allowed me to win liberalism and take military tradition easily. A couple trades for backfill and I was all set to dow again with cuirassers and spies against longbows.

The above is standard "CE" fare and while everyone seems to have a love affair with "SE" lately, cottages remain an effective (and low micro!) approach to doing well on all difficulties.

 

[Charonicus]

Makes it a bit more fun, doesn't it?

I've never won a game earlier than the 1800's. I've lost a few much earlier! I actually enjoy the modern era. By that time I have a killer economy, lots of money, and a pretty big military. Sometimes I even have a few vassals. Then we do some door knocking...

Heh I actually prefer the earlier stages! I find that by the time flight comes along and modern units, and depending on map, naval warfare I end up a little overwhlemed. I prefer to do my warring early and then settle down for a more peaceful victory strategy.
My good noble win was in the 1700s via the AP. I think that's a reasonably easy way to win early, which you should try if you wish to. I was actually aiming for domination though and the AP was just an afterthought that worked out. I need to work on my spaceship strategy most I think. All the times I've successfully launched it's always gone 1900 or much later.

 

[pigswill]

There is no 'right' or 'proper' way to play civ. There are lots of tricks, tactics and strategies that enable someone to win faster and/or at a higher difficulty. They're good if you're someone who wants to win faster or move up to immortal (which I still haven't managed) but they're still not the 'right' or 'proper' way to play Civ. The only thing (imho) that's not right is criticising other people for not approaching the game the way that you do.

 

[Wez]

Nice post lemon merchant and nice attitude i couldnt agree more its all about having fun.
As for myself i win most games on noble now but most of them always seem to end up as space race victories for some reason.
Im going to have a go with shaka i dont usually play as him and see if i can win a domination victory or summat.
O yeah i did try prince not so long ago and got my ass smacked big time so i think i will stay on noble for a while anyhoo good luck with your game.

 

[Kranden]

Hammer cities are not as vital early game as you should be whipping with food if possible. Later game they can be much more useful as your cities start getting very large.

 

[bestbrian]

Well, boys and girls, I am sitting back with a nice big mug of hot chocolate, reflecting on my very recent mauling...
I have just concluded my 25th game since I moved up to Noble. Of the 25 I have only won 2 games for a whopping 8% victory ratio.
Don't worry. This isn't a "Boo-Hoo" thread.
I'm actually pretty happy. Since I started lurking here in March, I have been reading posts, looking at the war academy, asking a few questions and reading and reading even more. It's paid off handsomely. The advice I've been getting from all of you has been fantastic, and has seriously improved my game play. I've gone from being completely humiliated to losing by only a small margin. I enjoy the game even more now. Even when I lose (sigh, "Dan Quayle" again...) I still have more things to work on, but that's what makes it fun.
I don't have much experience with online forums, other than a few medical ones (boring!), but CFC is great. It's a nice little community where people help each other, and I'd just like to say thank you.
Yes, I'm getting a little philosophical, but hot chocolate does that to me.

Thanks guys.

Mmmmmmm, hot chocolate. Mmmmm.....

And thank you for being courteous, thoughful and kind (or were you spiking your cocoa with a little something from work?)

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Lemon, if you care to improve (it's understandable if you're happy at your difficulty level and it doesn't matter), you should check out the NUMEROUS walkthroughs players post on the strategy & tips subforum, there's games of all levels there and plenty of opportunity to participate yourself and gain input if you so choose! That's what's carried me past emperor thus far after joining the forums @ warlord.

Thanks, TMIT. I haven't checked out the walkthroughs yet, but I do plan to. I hope to get beyond Noble someday.
Right now, I am just figuring out the intricacies of CE, SE, and GP farms, and trying to use them effectively. As I mentioned, my games are getting closer and I think it's because of taking what I've learned here and applying it. I just have to work out the military issue. I'm simply not aggressive enough in the early game. I'm waiting too long to attack, and the hesitation is causing me some issues in the late game. That seems to be my weak point, but I've been reading the War Academy...

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Mmmmmmm, hot chocolate. Mmmmm.....

And thank you for being courteous, thoughful and kind (or were you spiking your cocoa with a little something from work?)

LOL. They won't let me go to work right now as I'm on medical leave, so sadly, no cocoa spiking.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Thanks, TMIT. I haven't checked out the walkthroughs yet, but I do plan to. I hope to get beyond Noble someday.
Right now, I am just figuring out the intricacies of CE, SE, and GP farms, and trying to use them effectively. As I mentioned, my games are getting closer and I think it's because of taking what I've learned here and applying it. I just have to work out the military issue. I'm simply not aggressive enough in the early game. I'm waiting too long to attack, and the hesitation is causing me some issues in the late game. That seems to be my weak point, but I've been reading the War Academy...

Definitely check out the noble's club. Play along and possibly post there (I hosted the last one but in the past it's been Krick and Bleys). You get to reference what other players are doing in your same game, and also you can get game specific advice at any time just by asking .

The war academy was good reading for me at first but after that IMO I got WAY more benefits from seeing how others approached the game and how that fit in with what I wanted to do.