Hello, sorry for not updating this game. Real life's been hectic and I haven't had a chance to play since last session. I didn't abandon the game however and appreciate the advice from Pigswill and Goldys_Lackey Should have an update in 24 hours.
A very interesting game so far. I'd like to follow it closely and ask the odd question or two if you don't mind. I'm new to this forum myself (not to civ 4 though, I'm an immortal player) so it would be nice to get the hang of things around here.
1. Why tech aesthetics? The AI is really slow to get alpha on monarch (you beat them by a mile even by not really trying). Is there a specififc reason you don't want to trade alpha?
2. I probably would have oracled currency since you were very close to math. However, this strategy really requires early foreign trade routes as goldys_lackey suggested.
3. Why do you want to adopt Confucianism so badly? It seems to me you've got tons of happy resources. Do you want to run an early theocracy with SP? (an interesting wonder, never accually wanted to have it. Got it once or twice by accident while building it for the failgold.) However, early theo is not bad, although if you really want to HA rush it is unnecessary. I personally would wait for Buddhism. And run HR. This will really make them love you. (They will love each other too, unfortunately.)
4. Although you didn't post the unit screen it seems to me you're actually lacking worker turns rather than courthouses right now. Chopping some workers is powerful with math. Or do you want to save those forests for specific wonders?
5. In this case I'd use caste to get the GS or GM I want more quickly. You're spiritual after all.
6. Who are you concentrating your spy points on currently?
Welcome to Civfanatics, UnforcedError
I will answer as best as I remember.
1) I want the AIs to tech Alpha themselves because I don't want to give them spies. On Monarch, I tend to outtech the AI pretty well, especially with as nice a Buro cap as I got here. So I would rather they spend the turns getting their own copy of Alphabet and then bother me instead of me giving them the keys to build spies. Tech trade is not a huge factor as they all tech the same thing.
2) I wasn't exactly planning out the Oracle tech. I usually don't try for the Oracle. I find fitting Mysticism -> Priesthood kinda awkward in the early tech path and by the time I unlock it, some religious nut or Wonderspammer's got it already. So I didn't think too far ahead on the Oracle and took Confu as it was the best tech available.
3) I want Confu because it is the easy choice I don't have to build a bunch of missionaries to spread it to my core cities as it auto spread to three cities already. I also built the SP, which is a stupid decision as Pigswill pointed out in a much nicer tone, so I might as well adopt a religion and start getting the benefits of a state religion. It invites war. But I WANT war
4) I can't answer that without looking at the save. I will comment on it once I have the time to sit down and play again tomorrow.
5) I want a GS first. The problem with Caste is the land is very commerce rich but sucks on food. I don't have a way to support many specialists without shutting off growth, which I am loathe to do as I have tons of happiness in this map. That was why I went after the ill-advised SP in the first place
6) If memory serves, I am not focusing spy points on anyone. I am the tech leader and my priority right now is to keep what's mine that way instead of stealing some one else's goodies. So I am spreading it evenly, though no one else on the continent has spies yet. But I figure I am about to blow the AI completely out of the water with my tech pace soon enough, so I might as well keep the spies out.
And probably the biggest reason I make weird choices is that I am trying to get used to normal speed and I am also just a monarch player.
First of all, I wasn't suggesting you're playing a 'weird' game. This game can really be played using tons of different strategies so I was curious about your intentions. And if you regularily outtech the AI on monarch you're probably ready to move up.
1. You're right about the spies, Louis and Joao can be a real nuisanance. However, they won't necessarily pick the same techs as they have slightly different flavors. And it may be worth considering that you're not playing a pangea-type map: what if Mansa, Elizabeth and Willem happened to spawn on the other continent and have already formed a happy teching community? Keeping your own AIs too much in the dark slows your own progress down as well. But it's surely risky as you say. And you don't know yet how much land they can expand to and how many cities you will get. So it's probably too early to consider such things.
2. To me the oracle is the only early wonder worth considering unless I'm playing industrious or have stone. And teching priesthood unlocked monarchy for you so you could trade for it immediately. That's not essentially bad I only suggested currency because that's generally a good tech especially if you're the tech leader: you can always get their money by trading techs away. Maybe not for their full price, but that could grant you lots of fair trade bonuses later on.
3. I'd still say adopting Confu is the wrong choice here unless you want to go into missionary spamming mode (I somehow doubt you do ) Louis and Capac may declare at pleased so even running HR won't save you there. Louis even has a useful amount of units usually. Why not FR until Buddhism becomes available?
5. Yes, since you don't have too many cities yet this is fine, especially if you don't want to do any early bulbing.
It has been a while since I last played Civ, so I played the start again for practice. Only this time, I played it the way I usually play (No cottages, farm everything, run specialists, whip cities till several generations curse me for my cruel oppression, adopt puppies as the national animal, etc.)
And it was a very interesting contrast. That game has one more city than the cottage game I am playing and it is up Literature and Currency, but down Code of Laws which I oracled here. I am guessing the Buro Cap game will pull away soon, but that food start should stay competitive by being far more aggressive in settling and taking some one else's land due to the surplus food. That game also had its first GP way sooner with more on the way.
Wonders are in the Cottage game's favour with Oracle and Shwedagon Paya.
I will post the save for comparison and will likely play both versions out.
Now back to the game I am playing seriously with help from the good people of Civfanatics
Goldys_Lackey pointed out that I don't have trade with Huayna. I was surprised because Huayna connected a road to the river that connects all of my cities.
Spoiler:
Apparently Rivers in culture borders will spread trade routes within the Civ's cities but not to another civ. We need sailing for that. That sounds arbitrary and makes no sense, but whatever, lesson learned.
Pigswill pointed out that I didn't need to build Shwedagon Paya for the Pacifism Civic. I could easily bulb it with a scientist. And lo, behold:
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Pacifism is the very next bulb for a Great Scientist. Lesson re-learned : If I want a wonder, chances are I don't really need it, so should not build it and build something more useful like troops, settlers or even wealth.
UnforcedError asked how my worker situation is, here's a screenshot of the troops. Not many workers. But I am making sure cities aren't working un-improved tiles:
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I start the session by taking the trades from Huayna and Louis. Aesthetics and Meditation nets a total haul of Masonry, Fishing, Iron working and Monarchy. Not a bad trade.
I send the missionary down towards Kolkata to spread Confu.
Turn 104- Bangalore [F] founded. The city needs to pop borders before it can harvest the horse or the fish. So I que a monument there.
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I give Joao Mathematics and get sailing. I finally have trade routes with Huayna.
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Turn 105 - Confu spreads in Kolkata. I switch and then swap Civics to Hereditary Rule and Pacifism. It knocks off a turn off the GS from Kolkata. Er.... yay?
Turn 107 - I finally have a Great Scientist. On Marathon, I would have been happy with a GS on turn 107, it feels way too late on normal speed. That's one of the things I need to focus on improving, get Great People sooner.
Oh, Joao finishes the Pyramids! Dude's got stone and is gunning for the wonders boosted by them. Pyramids is a really nice catch though. I want!
Turn 108 - Joao adopts Hereditary rule which starts giving me diplo boost for 'Chosen your civics wisely', but seriously! That's a horrid waste of the Pyramids. >.<
IBT Huayna demands Ivory.
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I check the diplo screen and see that he has Construction but no Horse Back Riding.
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I give in. I need the diplo boost. I will simply cancel ten turns down the road. (Yeah right! I gave in to Catherine for Copper demand once and forgot to cancel that for the whole game and ended up being the only thing standing between her total annihilation due to lack of metals and Mehmed's Stacks Let's hope writing this stuff down acts as idiot proofing for me...)
Turn 110 - Currency finished. I start researching Civil Service. A settler also gets whipped in Mumbai to claim the Copper spot.
Turn 113 - Hyderabad [F] founded to secure Copper.
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Turn 121 - I research Civil Service. I immediately switch to Bureaucracy and micro to assign all 4 + Commerce cottages to Delhi and assign the others to the supports. Doing this takes away the Flood Plain cottage from Kolkata, it can no longer work scientists without starving. This sucks! Louis goes Buddhist. More good news!
A Great Prophet was born in Delhi this turn, I sent him off to build the Confu shrine.
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It's worth 6 GPT. Not great, but I won't complain about it. I set research to Music to get the Great Artist. I will save him for a Golden Age later.
Turn 123 - Ahmedabad [F] founded. It will secure Iron. I set it to build a work boat to secure the Crab too.That should help with the health problems Delhi is in. Oh wait, I am a dum-dum. I never switched into Beuro. Apparently I was so busy writing it down, I never bothered to actually implement it. I finally realise my error and switch, I also go Organised Religion as Pacifism is no longer helping me get scientists.
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Turn 127 - A Fast Worker and a Settler were whipped last turn in Mumbai and Kolkata respectively. I send the Worker south to spread irrigation and the Settler North to start claiming land between me and Louis.
Turn 129- Music done. I put the Great Artist to sleep in the capital.
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He will be used for a Golden Age later or I might bulb Military Tradition or something. Research Set to Metal Casting. I have two resources boosted by Forge in Gold and Silver, Forges by themselves are really nice to have anyway.
Turn 130 - Pune [F] founded.
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IBT, Huayna offers me Monotheism and some spare change for Alphabet.
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I of course turn him down. Before I get yelled at for not cancelling the Ivory trade, I have been checking tech screen and he doesn't have HBR yet. I will keep giving him Ivory till he techs HBR for the diplo boost.
Turn 132 - Metal Casting done. I set research to Machinery to unlock Macemen and Windmills and watermills.
Turn 134 - Louis completes the Great Library.
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I am not milking fail-gold at all. That's another thing I should improve upon. But I find it very hard to fit in wonders between builds purely to fail them. Any tips?
Turn 136 - Both Huayna and Louis offer to trade Construction and Monotheism for Music. Huayna will give 20 gold and Louis 50. Since I am greedy, I first lean towards taking the extra gold from Louis.
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Then I realise I am trading away the Sistine Chapel tech. I check the victory screen,
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Sure enough, Louis has the cities with the most culture on this continet. (They are not all that great right now, but Louis is perfectly suited to go culture with his traits.) So I decide to trade Music to Huayna.
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Even if he does build Sistine, I plan on conquering Huayna first anyway. That's more hammers he won't put into troops.
Turn 137 - Machinery in. I set research to Engineering to unlock Trebuchets.
Turn 138 - Huayna founds Christianity in Tiwanaku.
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That's two holy cities he's now got pushing culture towards me. They are not a threat yet. But I might regret trading him Sistine Chapel.
Turn 139 -Lucknow [F] founded.
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It will secure Stone for Moai Statues in Mumbai.
Turn 140 - Huayna built the Parthenon. He's picking up the pace with the wonders. He built Hanging Gardens and now Parthenon.
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Turn 142 - Huayna and Louis will trade Feudalism. While checking for the prices on it, I discover Louis will switch to Confucianism for Code of Laws. I don't take that offer as I want to have it as a backup when I declare on Huayna. I trade Civil Service to Huayna.
Spoiler:
No one else has Metal Casting yet, so I am not worried about Maces.
Turn 143 - A few things happened this turn. Huayna and Louis both were willing to trade Horse Back Riding. I take HBR and Calendar from Louis and also get him to switch to Confucianism.
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Machinery research finished this turn too. I now have several options.
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I can go the optics route and meet and greet the other continent and pick up the Circumnavigation bonus while at it for any future intercontinental warfare. I can tech Guilds in 7 turns at breakeven GPT or six if I build gold and run deficit research to unlock Knights. I can whip out a bunch of Maces, Pikes, War Elephants and Trebuchets and go conquer Huayna's lands. I do want to war now that I have Louis in Confucianism. But what is the best way to go about it? I have the tech lead and since no one even has Metal Casting yet, I can use the advantage of Maces/Crossbows + Trebs for grabbing land, or I can just tech Guilds and whip out an army of Knights. Knights seem pretty solid, only lacking the withdrawal chance inherent in most other cavalry.
So, what do I do now?
Here's the tech situation
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Diplomacy screen:
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Wonders are mostly concentrated on this continent:
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Demographics:
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The state of what I like to call 'my army':
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Thank you for reading, all advice, critique and comments welcome
Saves attached. The first is for the parallel game I played going food instead of cottages. Second is the current game.
First of all, I wasn't suggesting you're playing a 'weird' game. This game can really be played using tons of different strategies so I was curious about your intentions. And if you regularily outtech the AI on monarch you're probably ready to move up.
I haven't yet finished a game, let alone win, I used to give up on Marathon as it became a slog. If I win this one, I plan on playing Tokugawa next and move up if I do well there too.
1. You're right about the spies, Louis and Joao can be a real nuisanance. However, they won't necessarily pick the same techs as they have slightly different flavors. And it may be worth considering that you're not playing a pangea-type map: what if Mansa, Elizabeth and Willem happened to spawn on the other continent and have already formed a happy teching community? Keeping your own AIs too much in the dark slows your own progress down as well. But it's surely risky as you say. And you don't know yet how much land they can expand to and how many cities you will get. So it's probably too early to consider such things.
I am not particularly worried about a love fest between peace monger fast techers. What does have me scared though is peace mongers vassaling to a Justinian or Shaka. I never thought about spreading Alpha on my continent to push the Tech pace to keep up with the other continent. Definitely something I will think about in the future.
2. To me the oracle is the only early wonder worth considering unless I'm playing industrious or have stone. And teching priesthood unlocked monarchy for you so you could trade for it immediately. That's not essentially bad I only suggested currency because that's generally a good tech especially if you're the tech leader: you can always get their money by trading techs away. Maybe not for their full price, but that could grant you lots of fair trade bonuses later on.
I usually priorities Currency. But my timing is completely off on Normal and I seem to be doing things far too late here.
3. I'd still say adopting Confu is the wrong choice here unless you want to go into missionary spamming mode (I somehow doubt you do ) Louis and Capac may declare at pleased so even running HR won't save you there. Louis even has a useful amount of units usually. Why not FR until Buddhism becomes available?
I am not a fan of Free Religion. Even late game when there are multiple religions in a few cities, I find it to be very weak. 10% Extra research? That's comparable to a monastery and comes at the price of losing either more hammers for buildings or better troops. It is a risk to turn into a heathen. But I think the advantages of having a religion far outweigh the risks. I would never go heathen if I had a Monty around though.
5. Yes, since you don't have too many cities yet this is fine, especially if you don't want to do any early bulbing.
I am very disappointed with the rate at which I am generating GP this game. Only two and one was a scientist. I want to blame the low food map, but that can't be it. I must be doing something wrong.
I forgot to change Spy points to Huayna. Oh well, I am currently only generating some 6 EP anyways.
...
If I want a wonder, chances are I don't really need it, so should not build it and build something more useful like troops, settlers or even wealth.
It bulbs into Nationalism if you trade for Theo and tech Drama and Divine Right D). (EDIT: If you have Philosophy. Sorry, I'm not at home, so I can only check the save tomorrow.) You really should have skipped some techs purposefully to have any chance on bulbing MT in time. (EDIT: No, it's not reasonable to bulb MT with an artist. Maybe if you already libbed something?) And you'd still need Divine Right, which is one of the reasons Great Prophets and Artists are so seldom used for bulbing.
...
I can go the optics route and meet and greet the other continent and pick up the Circumnavigation bonus while at it for any future intercontinental warfare. I can tech Guilds in 7 turns at breakeven GPT or six if I build gold and run deficit research to unlock Knights. I can whip out a bunch of Maces, Pikes, War Elephants and Trebuchets and go conquer Huayna's lands. I do want to war now that I have Louis in Confucianism. But what is the best way to go about it? I have the tech lead and since no one even has Metal Casting yet, I can use the advantage of Maces/Crossbows + Trebs for grabbing land, or I can just tech Guilds and whip out an army of Knights. Knights seem pretty solid, only lacking the withdrawal chance inherent in most other cavalry.
Elephants are cheaper than maces and can get more starting promos with the stables. (Did you cancel the ivory deal with HC? ) And they upgrade into cuirs. Trebs plus a reasonable army with the road movement bonus is just fine. An army of knights does not do well against longbows fortified behind walls. Besides the AI tends to prioritize Guilds anyway, so there's (generally) no reason to tech that.
Just had a quick look at your save before leaving for work. A couple more thoughts:
1. Looking at the screenshots I had not realized you still had so much land to settle. I'd establish the borders with Louis while building up military. No need to settle agressively towards him, but definitely settle the iron / cow / fish city and maybe take Vandal or both of the barb cities. Pop borders quickly to seal Louis off and put a few longbows in for good measure. The other spots can be backfilled later. You're making +12 gold at 70% research without building wealth, there is still room for expansion.
2. I think seven workers for this amount of cities is not enough, even with fast workers. Your newer cities could be working better land tiles if you could spread irrigation quicker. And sooner or later you will have to deal with jungle tiles.
3. Cap looks really fine. Shame to see that irrigated corn unworked though.
4. Joao'll give you 95 gp for poly. I'd take it.
5. What to tech? Yes, you could go for optics (the other continent seems to be wonderspamming. No great generals so far) to meet the rest, but you can also lib something nice. I don't think you need guilds that quickly. I think you need an army of elephants, trebs, a few maces and maybe 1-2 pikes.
I decide to take UnforcedError's advice to war using Treb/Elephants with a couple maces as escort against spears. Before I war, I want to make sure everything is in order. I need to make sure my economy won't completely crash when I switch out of Bureaucracy into Feudalism/Theocracy and I won't lose any important trades by delcaring on HC. I also need to make sure I get peace from the other AIs so they won't jump in or accept HC as a vassal.
I will lose a total of 70 GPT when I switch out of Bureacracy and delcare on HC. But I am hoping the trade routes with Louis and Joao will pick up and recover some of the losses.
Spoiler:
I switch research from Guilds to Optics and turn off research to build gold. I will upgrade all my archers to Longbows just in case I need some help back home.
Spoiler:
Turn 148 - Not a whole lot happened. I just let gold build up to upgrade all archers to Longbows and built forges and Stables. Huayna built the Statue of Zeus this turn. It's in his capital, Cuzco. So I am going to have to roll right through and capture it quickly.
Turn 149 - All archers in borders now upgraded to Longbows. I whip every building that can be whipped in cities to obtain maximum possible overflow as I am about to switch out of Organised Religion next turn.
Turn 150 - Cities start on Trebuchets. This is demographics screen before arms buildup:
Spoiler:
Yes, I am a wimpy little nation open to conquest! I used to constantly build troops in one city throughout the game to keep up in the power department. I stopped using that strategy and instead now play a 'Farmer's Gambit' (It is a term I learnt from Sulla and means having skeleton army while focusing on building the empire). Now a days, unless I have a war monger on my hands that is bound to hit me, I just build enough troops to keep cities happy. I find having armies that I don't use to be a drain on my economy. Besides, I now whip enough to go from the bottom of the pile to the top Military power on the map in a few shorts turns anyway.
I am not advising this style for all players though! Just explaining my lack of army.
Turn 151 - I switch into Vassalage and Theocracy and Trebuchets start getting whipped. Also, Machiavelli is a time traveler! He called me pathetic at turn 50, but went back to the future and now calls me the most advanced civilisation
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Turn 154 - Huayna built the Apostolic Palace in Tiwanaku. This could get very messy. Louis converts back to Buddhism. When it rains, it pours....
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Turn 156 - Optics done, I set research to Drama. I would like to be able to bulb Theology and then Philosophy when the Great Prophet pops using up the Great Artist and the GP. I also create a dotmap of Huayna and Joao's lands to figure out which cities I am going to keep and which I am going to raze. Tiwanaku will be razed. I would have been tempted to raze it just for holding the AP, but it's in a suboptimal spot eating up land that could easily fit three cities. The rest of the city placement has me in tears and wanting to punch puppies. So much land, so poorly used.
Turn 158 - I now have 10 Trebuchets. Cities start whipping War elephants. I also notice Huayna no longer wants the HBR tech. So I cancel the ivory deal to him.
Turn 160 - Louis founds Islam in Tours
Turn 164 - I am almost ready to declare on Huayna. One of his spies was stumbled upon in my cities too. IBT, he asks for Compass.
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I refuse as it would force ten turns of truce upon me. Who needs truce when you have War elephants? I trade Music to Joao and take Theology.
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Turn 166- I have 5 War elephants, 1 Mace man and a boatload of Trebuchets ready to go on HC's borders.
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I beg World map off Louis as he didn't have gold and 20 gold off Joao to get peace. I then declare on Huayna and start marching on Tiwanaku, the AP city.
Turn 170 - I had parked outside of Tiwanaku and bombarded defences down. City started with 125% Defence! IBT, Huayna decides to smash his stack of Catapults and chariots on a reinforcing Stack of War elephants, Trebuchets and Longbows I had moving towards his lands. It's a complete curbstomp with him losing every single attacker and I didn't have to suffer war weariness as the battle happened in my borders. Gets me a Great General too. I send him off to attach to a scout for a super healer.
Turn 171- Tiwanaku falls. Total cost : 1 Trebuchet and 1 War Elephant.
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Do I want to keep the holder of AP?
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Hmmm... let me think. NO! BURN BABY BURRRNN!!!
Turn 172 - Louis is now Cautious towards me as I declared war on his buddy and am a heathen. I can no longer beg peace treaties off him and he has a mini-stack on our border.
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I start whipping Longbows and Pikes in the Eastern cities and moving them to the Eastern border. I hope not to have to fight a two-front war. But if I have to, I am not going to go down without a fight.
Turn 175 - Joao asks for Compass. I give in. It will extend the Peace treaty and I am way ahead of Joao in tech anyway.
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Turn 177 - Cuzco falls. It nets me the Statue of Zeus and a Buddhist Shrine that is worth 20 GPT.
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Very nice! I now just need to take two more cities from HC, Machu Pichu for all the nice wonders it has and Corihuayarchina, cause it is in a good location and then I can declare peace or preferably Capitulate HC. My Eastern front has been considerably bolstered with Longbows, Pikes and Maces with a couple of War Elephants thrown in cause I love those units.
Turn 178 - HC's teching Gunpowder. I send the whole stack towards Machu Pichu. I would rather have that one city with all the wonders than get greedy by splitting the stack only to find I have too few troops to take it against Muskets.
Turn 180 - I trade Printing Press and Optics to Louis for Divine Right and Guilds. I then flip Paper and Optics to Joao for Philosophy. I am now on tech parity with Louis, who got into tech lead while I was warring.
Turn 182 - I capture Machu Pichu and wow! This is an amazing city. Not location wise, but it's got a TONNE of wonders.
Spoiler:
I lose one treb in the process. Not a bad trade at all. Huayna offers to capitulate. I still want to take the South Western Incan city and raze the South Eastern one to open up land for resettlement. But if he is willing to Cap to me, he will likely Peace Vassal to Louis. So I accept the capitualtion, get some gold and Banking out of it.
Spoiler:
I now have access to Mercantilism. I check the trade situation and balk at taking it.
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I feel the gold from trade right now is more useful than one extra specialist. I switch to Organised Religion and Bureacracy and builds in Cities switch to Courthouses, Libraries and Temples.
Turn 185 - Two Caravels sent in opposite directions were chilling on the same longitude after circumnavigating the globe last turn.
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But the bonus was registered this turn. Huayna finishes Gunpowder. I trade him Printing Press for it and get him to switch to Confu while at it.
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The Caravels are now sent out to explore for other AIs. First contact made with Bismarck.
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Dude's a thirteen city behemoth but way backwards techwise. I open borders with him. Should get me some money once Astronomy is in.
Turn 186- A Great Prophet is born in Delhi. I bulb part of Education with it.
Turn 187 - I meet Isabella. She is naturally annoyed with me. She denounced me as fiendish heathen to be wiped off the face of the earth in a long winded speech....
Spoiler:
But it was not threatening at all. Kinda cute actually when AIs that haven't even teched Aesthetics act haughty.
I gift her aesthetics to bring her from Annoyed to Cautious. She still won't open borders with me as I am her worst enemy. Oh well!
Cuzco came out of resistance but is starving.
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I welcome it to the fold by introducing it to Cruel Oppression for a temple to improve happiness and to pop borders.
Turn 188 - IBT Bismarck demands paper. I laugh him off. Isabella finally agrees to open borders. I accept as Astronomy finishes in one turn.
Turn 189 - Astronomy in. I make some trades with Bismarck and Isabella. Isabella's trade routes are worth 41 GPT. Nice!
Turn 190 - I meet Saladin.
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He also has 11 cities and is mad at me as he is Hindu. I trade Cow to him for Spice and gift him aesthetics.
Turn 193 - Education in. I am now at a crossroads again. I just unlocked Liberalism, but what should the free tech be?
Spoiler:
I can research Economics in 4 turns at breakeven. I can use the Great Merchant spawned by it to bulb Replacable Parts partially, trade Economics and Optics to Huayna for Chemistry and Lib into steel for Cannons while I self tech Rifling for Riflemen.
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Or, I can tech through Nationalism in 5, then Liberalism and take Military Tradition with it to open up Cavalry. The first route will give me more techs and a guaranteed can opener in Cannons. The second route will allow me to upgrade my highly promoted War Elephants that are just chilling on Louis' borders to Cavalry and take my chances with them. I will need to whip a whole lot of Cavalry for it to work though.
Overall, I think both routes take about the same turns. I need to build gold reserves up in both cases to upgrade my troops.
Tech Situation:
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Diplomacy:
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Demographics:
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And finally, the state of the army:
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I intend to take Louis on next. He is the tech leader and the biggest threat. He has Gunpowder, so I need to account for Musketeers when I Declare on him. They seem to be a sad Unique unit with the only advantage they have over regular muskets being their two moves.
I have also liberally traded Ivory around for GPT and resources. I consider War Elephants to be obsolete now. I hope that won't come back to bite me in the butt.
All advice, Critique and Comments welcome. Thank you for reading.
Just had a quick look at your save before leaving for work. A couple more thoughts:
1. Looking at the screenshots I had not realized you still had so much land to settle. I'd establish the borders with Louis while building up military. No need to settle agressively towards him, but definitely settle the iron / cow / fish city and maybe take Vandal or both of the barb cities. Pop borders quickly to seal Louis off and put a few longbows in for good measure. The other spots can be backfilled later. You're making +12 gold at 70% research without building wealth, there is still room for expansion.
2. I think seven workers for this amount of cities is not enough, even with fast workers. Your newer cities could be working better land tiles if you could spread irrigation quicker. And sooner or later you will have to deal with jungle tiles.
3. Cap looks really fine. Shame to see that irrigated corn unworked though.
4. Joao'll give you 95 gp for poly. I'd take it.
5. What to tech? Yes, you could go for optics (the other continent seems to be wonderspamming. No great generals so far) to meet the rest, but you can also lib something nice. I don't think you need guilds that quickly. I think you need an army of elephants, trebs, a few maces and maybe 1-2 pikes.
Thank you for the advice. I played the turn out before I read this post, though. :s
1. Louis settled the land open to the East. I am not too bothered by it as the cities are in good spots and I intend to hit him next and liberate them. Joao picked up the Barb city. I was busy warring HC and couldn't spare resources for that front. I am not sure what would have worked out better. Should I have waited to war and settled all that land, or did warring work out for the better in the end? Those questions always stump me.
2. I agree my worker situation is sad. I wanted more but all whips were directed towards building up the army. I am now letting the cities get over the whip anger. I will whip more workers soon though, definitely before I start another war as I have tiles that need to be improved.
3. I am tempted to settle a city nudging the cap to the North to take that Corn tile and work the Wine tile. I think I will do that next turnset.
4. Oops! I didn't check for that. Opportunity lost
5. Yes, thank you for suggesting the Treb/WE route. It was lot of fun and I think that war worked out very well. I wanted more land out of it, but I realised that wars on Normal don't work the same as Marathon where I can sit and bombard defences for a couple of turns and move through enemy lands at leisure. Techs move real fast and window of opportunity is smaller.
Still, I think the army worked well as it got me two really nice cities and I razed the AP!! That alone is a win in my book
Nicely played war Elephants + siege are usually winning combos on the higher levels as well if you can monopolize ivory. And you're absolutely right. You don't have to stop for bombarding all the time. CR2 trebs are quite successful even against high culture cities although there will be casualties. But it's probably better to build 1-2 trebs more than sit around for 3-4 turns in front of a city.)
Had a look at the save, and I have some more points of criticism if you don't mind...
1. I really don't think you're leveraging your SPI trait well enough. You should have switched into FR at least until after the other continent met Louis. Then they would have envisioned him as their primary target, now they will plot against you. (Yes, they are backwards but as soon as they start trading with your continent this will change.) Also, with SPI you should never get a penalty for "you refused to accept our favourite civic". Just accept it. For five turns.
2. What's so great about razing the AP? You just denied yourself 2H / city and this with cheap temples. (Plus the ability to participate in elections and call silly votes. As the owner of the AP you'd always be eligible for the election, although you probably would not win at this point. Not before vassaling Louis and spreading the religion, anyway.)
3. Why are you giving four resources to your vassal for nothing in return instead of selling your excess stuff for gold to the other continent? Was this the price to cap him?
4. Building a bank in Cuzco would net you 12 gpt instead of the courthouse (current build) which will give 3.6 gpt.
5. I guess I'll stop pointing this out but your vassal has more workers than you and some of the cities could really use improvement. (Using the capital after it reached its happy cap before the attack, working all good cottages plus the food would have been a viable option. Just let it stagnate and slow-build workers.) Or you could have captured some from your future vassal.
6. Louis is likely to build the Taj at any moment and he's one tech away from MT. Good news is: he doesn't have horses and he won't get any from Joao. He will soon meet the other continent though. They will hate him but the AI is actually capable of acquiring fair trade bonuses as well in which case he may just get horses from them. Musketeers are great stack defenders when it comes to cuirs.
7. Elephants do upgrade into cuirs so that's still fine. Do you want to attack Louis with that stack or do you want to wait for MT / Steel / both?
8. What do you plan to lib? MT? Steel? Or even Communism? Biology? Physics? (Make sure Louis does not tech Edu during his golden age (if he gets the Taj), though.)
9. I'm not sure how bad yearning-for-motherland-pressure gets on monarch but before vassaling it's usually best to take all cities that might set your captured cities in revolt. That can get really annoying. (No worries now but as they grow they will have more and more little guys wanting to be Incans.)
Many of the things I pointed out here might not matter in this game, but they may be worth considering.
1. I really don't think you're leveraging your SPI trait well enough. You should have switched into FR at least until after the other continent met Louis. Then they would have envisioned him as their primary target, now they will plot against you. (Yes, they are backwards but as soon as they start trading with your continent this will change.) Also, with SPI you should never get a penalty for "you refused to accept our favourite civic". Just accept it. For five turns.
Criticism is welcome. I am trying to learn and showing me things I missed is the best way for me to figure out what went wrong As for refusing Isabella. She wanted me to switch to Theocracy. I wasn't ready to do it as I was in builder mode and wanted to get my infra in order before I switched back into war mode to go ruin Louis' day. Also, I am not too willing to switch Civics on Normal to please an AI unless I really need to. Five turns on Normal feels more important than five on Marathon which I will gladly throw away.
2. What's so great about razing the AP? You just denied yourself 2H / city and this with cheap temples. (Plus the ability to participate in elections and call silly votes. As the owner of the AP you'd always be eligible for the election, although you probably would not win at this point. Not before vassaling Louis and spreading the religion, anyway.)
Simply put, keeping the AP would have been setting myself up to be hoisted by my own petard. The only city in my empire that had the AP religion when I took it was the AP city itself. (I had terrible luck with auto spread as cities without religion were trading with Buddhist cities but wouldn't get the religion even when I wasn't in Theocracy ) Keeping the AP in that situation would have meant I would soon be crying bloody tears as the AP voted to hand all the cities I took back to Huayna or worse, declared a continent wide war on me. Yes, I could eventually gain control of it by spreading religion to my cities and becoming the top dog, but chances are, by the time I get to that position, the AP city would already be back in Huayna's hands thanks to a stupid vote. Besides, when I have a good thing going in a conquering run, I try not to upset the apple cart by switching to Missionary mode out of the blue
3. Why are you giving four resources to your vassal for nothing in return instead of selling your excess stuff for gold to the other continent? Was this the price to cap him?
I already shopped them around and got trades for them. I am giving Huayna resources because I want him to be useful. He is very health and happy limited. If I am going to take a vassal (which I often don't if I can get away with it) I want him to be my proxy techer. If it means I have to take care of his health and happy by gifting resources I can spare, then sure.
4. Building a bank in Cuzco would net you 12 gpt instead of the courthouse (current build) which will give 3.6 gpt.
5. I guess I'll stop pointing this out but your vassal has more workers than you and some of the cities could really use improvement. (Using the capital after it reached its happy cap before the attack, working all good cottages plus the food would have been a viable option. Just let it stagnate and slow-build workers.) Or you could have captured some from your future vassal.
Couldn't steal any. The war was a rushed affair with me working against the clock once Louis could no longer be begged for peace treaties. I just focused on getting the cities I wanted. More workers are definitely going to be built though.
6. Louis is likely to build the Taj at any moment and he's one tech away from MT. Good news is: he doesn't have horses and he won't get any from Joao. He will soon meet the other continent though. They will hate him but the AI is actually capable of acquiring fair trade bonuses as well in which case he may just get horses from them. Musketeers are great stack defenders when it comes to cuirs.
He doesn't have astronomy yet. No one has Astro yet. So I am not worried about him meeting the other continent. If an AI actually manages to pull off the gift tech tactic I used to get Izzy and Salad pacified enough to trade, I will be amazed And by the time he gets astro and horses, I should hopefully have him weakened enough for it to not matter.
9. I'm not sure how bad yearning-for-motherland-pressure gets on monarch but before vassaling it's usually best to take all cities that might set your captured cities in revolt. That can get really annoying. (No worries now but as they grow they will have more and more little guys wanting to be Incans.)
It gets pretty bad. I have lost cities before to motherland yearning. But I figured I would get out while the going's good and took what I could. I am going to do a complete conquer or near complete wipe of Louis though. Joao is easy to keep pleased and beg treaties off. The other continent is not even close to being a threat. Huayna is on my side. So I should be able to fight that war more thoroughly than the Incan one.
Many of the things I pointed out here might not matter in this game, but they may be worth considering.
...
He doesn't have astronomy yet. No one has Astro yet. So I am not worried about him meeting the other continent. If an AI actually manages to pull off the gift tech tactic I used to get Izzy and Salad pacified enough to trade, I will be amazed And by the time he gets astro and horses, I should hopefully have him weakened enough for it to not matter.
...
No, the AI never seems to use the gift-tech-tactics, other than gifting everything to its vassal. However, I've seen AIs manage to get a +4 trade bonus from other AIs in different religions on a continents map fairly often. This could also happen here, as Louis likes HR so he won't be annoyed at the other AIs right off the bat as soon as his caravel finds the other continent (it will be enough to keep him at cautious at first, unless the others start demanding things from him. Also, peace weights and warmonger respect will play a role here as well.). This means, he will be willing to trade techs to them. And he will trade old techs for gold, which might net him the odd trade bonus. This is of course much slower than gifting and the AI does not do it consciously. And with neither civ having at least minimal disposition to do trades with the other it will not work at all.
I set research to Economics to secure the Great Merchant. I let Huayna continue researching Chemistry. I switch builds in Cuzco from Courthouse to Bank as pointed out by UnforcedError.
Turn 197- Economics is done. I send the Great Merchant to the Temple of Artemis city held by Louis. I also adopt Free Market. Research set to Nationalism
Turn 199- Forge in Ahmedabad done, I queue Moai Statues there.
Spoiler:
Moai was initially planned in Mumbai.
Spoiler:
But Ahmedabad is far more reliant on Ocean tiles than Mumbai.
Turn 201 - Nationalism in. Huayna also finished researching Chemistry. He is working on Military Tradition. I tell him to research Replacable Parts. The Trade Mission nets a really nice purse of 1700 gold.
Spoiler:
Cha-ching! I start researching Liberalism.
Turn 202 - IBT, Joao asks I convert to Buddhism.
Spoiler:
Easy diplo boost. Right away buddy! He is now friendly towards me. Delhi finishes its bank. I set it to work on the Spiral Minaret. Louis Huayna and Joao have had Divine Right for a while now. Some one should be building it soon and get me failgold.
Turn 203 - Huayna asks for Education and Gold in exchange for Chemistry. I negotiate to give him Education and Optics and take Chemistry.
Spoiler:
In hindsight, I should have traded him Nationalism instead of Education as Edu is a monopoly tech. Oh, well, live and learn.
Turn 205 - I am first to Liberalism. I couldn't resist the appeal of Steel which is the most costly tech available, more than 1000 beakers than the next one and took it.
Spoiler:
I will now self tech Military Tradition for the Cavalry. Isabella declares war on Saladin. Knock yourself out you two!
Turn 211 - Military Tradition in. I set all my War Elephants to upgrade to Cuirassiers. I will switch into Confucianism, Theocracy and Feudalism next turn and whip even more Cuirassiers. I whip away any buildings in ques while I am still in Organised Religion to gain the maximum possible overflow. I have never fought a cavalry war this late. Fingers crossed! I set research to Scientific Method. Couldn't think of anything better to research that wouldn't duplicate what someone else already had.
Turn 212 - I switch to Confu, Theo and Vasslage. Cuirs qued everywhere.
Turn 214 - Huayna finishes Replaceable Parts but he wants to rip me off for trading it. I tell him to research Rifling, hoping to pick it up in a combo deal for Replaceable Parts at less outright highway-robbery prices.
Turn 215 - Saladin and Isabella both ask that I come to their rescue by declaring on the other party. I tell them both that I am in WHEOOHRN mode Bismark will trade Scientific Method. I am only two turns away from getting it. But I take it as he was only asking for Divine Right and gave me 200 gold too.
Spoiler:
Joao will trade Replaceable Parts but wants Military Tradition. Since Joao has Horse, I choose to hang on to it for now. I can always demand RP off Huayna if I need it. I go Physics for the free Great Scientist. I also expect to be busy with Louis war for a few turns, so Physics will let me focus on it instead of worrying about tech choices. Yes, I am lazy Also, I want to play with airships. I rarely get this far into a game. I want to see if they are any good.
Turn 226 - Isabella wants me to stop trading with the vile Arabs.
Spoiler:
Those vile Arabs are worth 40 GPT, woman! Go pester some one else!
Turn 217 - I have 29 Cuirassiers. 23 on the border with Louis. I cross my fingers, beg peace off Joao and declare.
Spoiler:
Turn 218 - I get a Great Engineer who I save to rush wonders later.
Spoiler:
I might take the Three Gorges or Statue of Liberty with him. I am not sure though, I usually don't play this far into the game.
Turn 219 - I lose three Cuirs and capture Rouen.
Spoiler:
I keep it. Louis blew 120 Espionage points to stop Cuir production in Chennai. Good work there, buddy. Saladin demands that I cancel trades with Isabella.
Spoiler:
Everyone's in Mercantilism, so I am not getting trade income from anywhere. But Izzy hates my guts and I will have to offer up a fortune to open borders again. I turn them down. Are the Sal and Izzy AIs always this whiny, constantly demanding the player jump through hoops?
Turn 222 - Meanwhile, the Trebs and some holdover troops from the Incan war do their bit by taking the French city on the Southeast corner of our continent.
Spoiler:
I am thinking of letting them march north along the Eastern coast slowly taking cities while the Cuir army rushes North to take away the important cities from Louis.
Turn 223 - I lose two Cuirs and capture Avignon.
Spoiler:
It is a terribly placed city with low pop, but I keep it as Louis settled it on top of Marble, finally giving me a source of it.
Turn 224 -
Spoiler:
Bismark, old chum! You must have these crabs! They are er.... magical, yeah, that's it! They are magical in nature. They can cure all sorts of afflictions. Since you are such a good friend, I will let you have them for the fair price of 16 GPT. Nice doing business with you!
Turn 228 - The task force of Trebs and rag tag maces captures yet another city on the East Coast.
Spoiler:
I keep it as it is in a very nice spot. I lost two trebs in the process, but I am just going to run this little group North until they are fully out of steam, will save me some maintenance in troops and get me some more cities. Up North, the battle of Dijon. Louis has Pikes.
Spoiler:
I lost six Cuirs, including the best one I had taking it. It's a marginal city but I keep it. It can work the golds and I will need to resettle if I raze it, since I will relieve culture pressure on it soon by taking Lyons, I think keeping it is the fastest way to get those golds worked. The AI city placement drives me up a wall though. It could have squeezed two cities in there, both with enough food to constantly work one gold mine and do other things.
Turn 232 - Physics in. I get a Great Scientist. I will save him for a Golden Age. I still have that Artist from Music. I need some peace to let cities grow before I use them up. I have been whipping my cities into ground for the army. I lost a worker to Louis due to my stupidity. Oh, well. I set research to Military Science.
There are three sources of Uranium on this continent. One is in my capital's BFC, another in Louis' capital, a third in Joao's lands. I should soon have two of the four Oil sources, one already in my lands, one is way to the North in Louis' lands and Joao has a source off the coast, but it is close to his border and I can take it away from him, if I wish to, with ease.
The other continent also has three Uranium sources I can see, each with one of the AIs. Saladin seems to have monopoly on oil though. I haven't been able to extract a map from the other continent, so I can't be sure.
Turn 233 - Bismark declares war on Isabella. Eh? That makes no sense. Oh, Saladin is now Bismark's peace vassal. I guess this means Izzy is dead as Bismark is the most advance civ on that continent.
I jump in and help Izzy by selling her gun powder for 30 gold. The longer she can hold out, the better my chances are.
Turn 234 - I take Lyons but I lose ten Cuirassiers. I think I prefer the 'Cannon + Whatever latest infantry' route. But I am going to stick with it now and see how far I can get. Lyons is a great city.
Spoiler:
Louis didn't even build a granary! I keep it as it has bunch of farms and can work two golds if I can take Louis' culture off them. At the start of the turn Izzy asked for Astronomy and I gave in as almost everyone had it by now. I decide to trade it to Huayna for Replacable parts and he wants gold too!
Spoiler:
I can apparently no longer demand stuff off him as he is pleased to me and he can now refuse requests. WTH!? I thought I can always demand one tech off my vassal. Apparently not.
Turn 236 - I take Amiens off Louis. I lose three Trebs.
Spoiler:
An Incan revolt took place in Cuzco. Perfect! I trade Nationalism and Economics to Huayna for Rifling.
Spoiler:
Turn 239 - The last remnants of the Treb brigade and a reinforcing group of Cuirassiers and Cavalry heading to the French front combine to capture the last French city settled on "MY" part of the continent.
Spoiler:
Louis no longer has a fight in him.
Spoiler:
I am tempted to accept his capitulation, gift him back Lyons as it is heavily culture pressed by his cap and hold onto the cities I took that I wanted to settle myself anyway.
Demographics:
Spoiler:
My current tech situation and techs across the board:
Spoiler:
Diplo situation:
Spoiler:
I think the plan should be to take Louis as a vassal, make sure I don't have any culture pressed cities on the North, hold what I have taken so far and fight tooth and nail to keep Cuzco in my hands as losing it back to the Incans would likely collapse Machu Pichu too.
I think I will settle down for a bit, let my cities re-grow from all the whipping I did and setup for production for an intercontinental war. There's still cities I can settle, so I will claim that land. The biggest threat right now is Bismark with Saladin as his peace vassal. I am going to prop up Isabella as much as I can to make sure that war goes poorly for the Bis-Sal coalition. Seems to be working as Izzy had a Great General and lost no cities yet. She actually did excellently against Sal cutting his empire in half.
I think the game's in the bag. I can probably just shut war off and gun for space. But where's the fun in that? So I am going to stick with warring unless I find out I suck at taking the fight to another landmass.
I have played about half the game on Normal speed, been in four wars total, two successful in this game and I find that Marathon and Normal are two very seperate entities. They don't scale well at all. Warfare on a tactical level is identical. Bring lots of siege, or bring overwhelming numbers if no siege is available. But the strategic scale of the war is far smaller on Normal. 25 turns isn't enough to tech much during warfare on Marathon. If I take 6 cities off a 18 city AI in 25 turns, it usually grinds the AI's tech pace to agonosingly slow rate. The AI would struggle to get out of that hole and I would continue to weaken it further to completely kill it off. This could take me anywhere between 70 to 150 turns to take out those large Portuguese or Russian empires using Trebs + Troops on Marathon. I don't have that luxury on Normal. Tech pace is way faster, the Keshik war I tried as Genghis before this game failed because I took on Zara Yaqob of 13 cities around turn 120. I pounded on him, took 8 cities in about 30 turns. During this war, Zara not only teched Code of Laws, Civil Service and Feudalism, he even built the damn Great Lighthouse and promptly peace vassaled to Louis (funny how he ended up in this game, too) essentially ending my game. Lesson learnt - Long wars are not viable on Normal.
The snowball effect is also far more pronounced on Normal. If I get a good start, the positives build up and I get a strong lead. This works on Marathon too, but the advantage is not overwhelming where I can outtech the other continent to the point I did in this game. I would at best be three techs or so ahead of the other continent. I also had monopoly on Metal Casting to Engineering for a while on my continent. That wouldn't happen on Marathon. Techs feel so much more expensive that getting such a lead is usually not a very good idea as other stuff needs to be researched as well and it takes a while and lots of resources. At least it appears that way to me.
Overall, I like Normal better than Marathon. If for nothing else, the barbs are not such a massive PITA anymore!
Enough of my rambling, I need some help. How do I keep Cuzco and my new holdings from culture flipping back to their old masters? I heard stationing ten of my best troops there helps. Is that true? Will running artists help? I have a GE sleeping in Machu Pichu. What should I rush? Statue of Liberty which I can unlock by trading with Louis for Democracy or hold him for Three Gorges Dam?
Critique, comments and suggestions welcome. Thank you for reading
Thanks for the detailed report (Although I miss the game save...)
Some thoughts:
I guess you should definitely vassal Louis now unless you want to go for dom and wipe him out completely. (The more vassals you have the easier it is to capitulate the next opponent.)
Stacking units in a city prevents a revolt, which is the only way a vassal can flip his city back. So sure, that's the way to go, if you can spare the units. Cultural buildings and artists will help too. (In my games a first vassal's ex-capital captured in the BCs would still have like 20-30% of the old culture around the finish time. The vassal's culture only seems to go away completely in the lesser developed cities.)
The best thing about cuirs is that they ignore walls and castles (and Chichen Itza) and their mobility. However, Louis is a creative wonderspammer, so he would still have pretty high cultural defenses. The easiest way to deal with this is to station a few spies in the given city a few turns before the attack, and set the city in revolt on the turn you plan to take it. If you see pike defenders, it's usually best to soften them up with Flanking II units (losing 10 cuirs on one city is a bit too much for my taste).
Are the Sal and Izzy AIs always this whiny, constantly demanding the player jump through hoops?
Nope. They're the greatest buddies in the world as long as you're in their religion They love demanding things, though.
SoL or TGD?
Ugh, I personally tend to build neither, but that's just me. Both are nice to have, sure. I guess if they're your top choices, I'd say TGD is better (if you don't plan on getting another GE), but it's a long way to go to Plastics, so if you could trade for Democracy... (I usually build coal plants for my factories since they are the only readily available power source with Assembly Line.) Neither of them will have any effect on the other continent though and you're planning an invasion there. If you're a corp fan, now would be the time to tech towards Railroad and get Mining Inc. with the GE. (I don't know how many resources you'd have available, but this is something you could consider.) (And if you're not why are you teching Military Science instead of Communism? Does Bismarck have it already?)
GNP, MFG and pop stats look pretty lousy atm. A bit too much whipping, I guess. So definitely re-grow before the next move. Maybe Bio would be an early priority (unless you're still in the race for Communism.)
Btw Lyons does have a granary in your post-engineering save. Non-culture buildings do get destroyed randomly during the raid too .
Some thoughts:
I guess you should definitely vassal Louis now unless you want to go for dom and wipe him out completely. (The more vassals you have the easier it is to capitulate the next opponent.)
I am not sure I want to eradicate him. War Weariness (both the game mechanic and my own general weariness with attacking Louis) is getting bad. I kinda lost heart when 10 Cuirs died taking one city.
Stacking units in a city prevents a revolt, which is the only way a vassal can flip his city back. So sure, that's the way to go, if you can spare the units. Cultural buildings and artists will help too. (In my games a first vassal's ex-capital captured in the BCs would still have like 20-30% of the old culture around the finish time. The vassal's culture only seems to go away completely in the lesser developed cities.)
I read the same thing in another thread just now. I am going to put the 50 or so Cuirs I have now into all the cities in danger of flipping to hold them. I am probably not going to war again for a while, so they aren't needed anywhere.
The best thing about cuirs is that they ignore walls and castles (and Chichen Itza) and their mobility. However, Louis is a creative wonderspammer, so he would still have pretty high cultural defenses. The easiest way to deal with this is to station a few spies in the given city a few turns before the attack, and set the city in revolt on the turn you plan to take it. If you see pike defenders, it's usually best to soften them up with Flanking II units (losing 10 cuirs on one city is a bit too much for my taste).
This is the first time I used Cuirassiers and I wasn't sure what to expect going in. And now that I have fought with them, I think I like the siege warfare route better. The problem I had was they only retreat when they are losing a fight, so even if I technically only lost 1 Cuir out of every three battles, the two that survived were too beaten up to carry on without healing. In infantry war, I bring enough that I can cycle through beaten units, waiting to heal while I bombard or just healing for one turn and most of the stack is always battle ready and covering for the couple injured. The Dijon battle used my entire stack and I had to heal them in the city while fervently hoping Louis wouldn't counter attack while every troop of mine had 0.2 or so HP.
Nope. They're the greatest buddies in the world as long as you're in their religion They love demanding things, though.
Yup, Isabella is probably my favourite neighbour, provided she lands next to me early. She spreads religion to all my cities without me having to do anything, acts as a very loyal war ally and is generally easy to please. I am now witnessing the full horror of being a heathen to her. I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition!
SoL or TGD?
Ugh, I personally tend to build neither, but that's just me. Both are nice to have, sure. I guess if they're your top choices, I'd say TGD is better (if you don't plan on getting another GE), but it's a long way to go to Plastics, so if you could trade for Democracy... (I usually build coal plants for my factories since they are the only readily available power source with Assembly Line.) Neither of them will have any effect on the other continent though and you're planning an invasion there. If you're a corp fan, now would be the time to tech towards Railroad and get Mining Inc. with the GE. (I don't know how many resources you'd have available, but this is something you could consider.) (And if you're not why are you teching Military Science instead of Communism? Does Bismarck have it already?)
I have never played far enough to get Corporations, but I can tell based on what I read I am going to hate them. I also will probably switch to State Property and that negates Corps altogether. So Mining Inc. isn't in the plans. As for wonders, I like the TGD myself as Organised boosts factory builds. I am not sure though. Bismark has Communism and got the Great Spy for it.
GNP, MFG and pop stats look pretty lousy atm. A bit too much whipping, I guess. So definitely re-grow before the next move. Maybe Bio would be an early priority (unless you're still in the race for Communism.)
Oh no! Don't tell me that you upgraded your Cuirs with Flanking? For horse units to be effective, you should only give them the promotions when you know what you're up against. For example, wait until you are about to attack the musketman before upgrading Combat I->Pinch. If you can't decide what specialized promo to give your horsey, give it Combat II.
I didn't look at your save, but some more hints on how to use Cuirs would be: try to include a horsey (even chariots will work for this) with Sentry (Flanking I->Sentry) so that you can threaten two cities at once and see what your opponent does and another with at least Medic I (Combat I->Medic I) for units that withdraw.
Oh no! Don't tell me that you upgraded your Cuirs with Flanking? For horse units to be effective, you should only give them the promotions when you know what you're up against. For example, wait until you are about to attack the musketman before upgrading Combat I->Pinch. If you can't decide what specialized promo to give your horsey, give it Combat II.
I didn't look at your save, but some more hints on how to use Cuirs would be: try to include a horsey (even chariots will work for this) with Sentry (Flanking I->Sentry) so that you can threaten two cities at once and see what your opponent does and another with at least Medic I (Combat I->Medic I) for units that withdraw.
Don't think Smilingrogue gave them flanking, which could have caused some problems if Louis defended with lots of pikes. Besides lots of the cuirs were upgrades from elephants from a previous war, so I suppose they were already promoted.
EDIT: no, just looked at the save. They all have flanking. I second Um the Muse's opinion here. Flanking guys should be used to soften up tough opposition, they will rarely be good for the outright kill. There's nothing wrong with siege + melee (/gunpowder) units, they're just a lot slower and on normal speed mobility matters a lot more than on marathon.
I'd also trade for a world map asap just to see what you're up against. As you do have late game prod resources, there's no real hurry, you can stabilize your economy. (you can always nuke them ) Shame that Bismarck has communism already. That probably means he might build the Kremlin soon, which is a truly great wonder. Then again: you have four GPs stacked away, what do you intend to do with them?
...
Yup, Isabella is probably my favourite neighbour, provided she lands next to me early. She spreads religion to all my cities without me having to do anything, acts as a very loyal war ally and is generally easy to please.
If Izzy spawns next to me she seldom survives the BCs. She's one of the best early rush targets imaginable, as she'd go for religions and the Oracle instead of Mining or BW D). Besides, you don't want to wait until she gets Conquistadors.
As an aside, mobility matters a lot on Mara speed too. Actually, a horse archer rush often works too well: you can easily take cities but the maintenance and long city disorder makes it unappetizing to me. That and other civs can and will fill in the power and territory vacuums much better than you can.
As an aside, mobility matters a lot on Mara speed too. Actually, a horse archer rush often works too well: you can easily take cities but the maintenance and long city disorder makes it unappetizing to me. That and other civs can and will fill in the power and territory vacuums much better than you can.
On immortal normal speed I sometimes feel mounted wars are my only chance. It's tough to build enough siege and melee and then watch them crawl slowly across enemy culture. Meanwhile your opponent's edging closer to Steel every turn.
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Should have an update in 24 hours.
I don't have to build a bunch of missionaries to spread it to my core cities as it auto spread to three cities already. I also built the SP, which is a stupid decision as Pigswill pointed out in a much nicer tone, so I might as well adopt a religion and start getting the benefits of a state religion. It invites war. But I WANT war 
Elephants + siege are usually winning combos on the higher levels as well if you can monopolize ivory. And you're absolutely right. You don't have to stop for bombarding all the time. CR2 trebs are quite successful even against high culture cities although there will be casualties. But it's probably better to build 1-2 trebs more than sit around for 3-4 turns in front of a city.)
) Keeping the AP in that situation would have meant I would soon be crying bloody tears as the AP voted to hand all the cities I took back to Huayna or worse, declared a continent wide war on me. Yes, I could eventually gain control of it by spreading religion to my cities and becoming the top dog, but chances are, by the time I get to that position, the AP city would already be back in Huayna's hands thanks to a stupid vote. Besides, when I have a good thing going in a conquering run, I try not to upset the apple cart by switching to Missionary mode out of the blue 
And by the time he gets astro and horses, I should hopefully have him weakened enough for it to not matter.
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