Moving from Marathon to Normal Speed

[Smilingrogue]

Oh no! Don't tell me that you upgraded your Cuirs with Flanking? For horse units to be effective, you should only give them the promotions when you know what you're up against. For example, wait until you are about to attack the musketman before upgrading Combat I->Pinch. If you can't decide what specialized promo to give your horsey, give it Combat II.

Er... is it too late to use the "I am a noob!" defence? I assumed Cuirs were valued for their ability to retreat from combat, living to fight another day. I obviously should have given them unit counter promotions before blindly upgrading them down the Flanking line. Lesson learned.

I didn't look at your save, but some more hints on how to use Cuirs would be: try to include a horsey (even chariots will work for this) with Sentry (Flanking I->Sentry) so that you can threaten two cities at once and see what your opponent does and another with at least Medic I (Combat I->Medic I) for units that withdraw.

Will that forking move work even if the Cuirs are positioned nearer to one city than the other? I thought the AI would just defend whichever city had the enemy troops closest to it. I sent the supear healer scout along with this stack of Cuirs. I am not sure if I should have had a cavalry healer though. Doesn't seem to make the stack any less mobile. But that might change with promotions like Commando coming into play.

Don't think Smilingrogue gave them flanking, which could have caused some problems if Louis defended with lots of pikes. Besides lots of the cuirs were upgrades from elephants from a previous war, so I suppose they were already promoted.

EDIT: no, just looked at the save. They all have flanking. I second Um the Muse's opinion here. Flanking guys should be used to soften up tough opposition, they will rarely be good for the outright kill. There's nothing wrong with siege + melee (/gunpowder) units, they're just a lot slower and on normal speed mobility matters a lot more than on marathon.

Well, given that I messed up with the promotions, I actually took longer to move from city to city with cavalry than I would have with siege + Infantry as everyone was always hurt. When I first started playing I would send a few catapults and a tonne of axemen, invariably having that stack whittled down after just a city or two. It took me a while to learn to overkill on siege and that learning stuck a bit too well because I just feel weird attacking without siege and collateral these days. But I will try more cavalry warfare in future games if that's what works on higher levels.

I'd also trade for a world map asap just to see what you're up against. As you do have late game prod resources, there's no real hurry, you can stabilize your economy. (you can always nuke them ) Shame that Bismarck has communism already. That probably means he might build the Kremlin soon, which is a truly great wonder. Then again: you have four GPs stacked away, what do you intend to do with them?

I just got a World Map off Louis as part of Capitulation. That's going to be covered in the next update. I plan on using the GP for Golden Ages. I was just waiting till my cities weren't in so bad shape cause their owner is a Cruel Oppressor

If Izzy spawns next to me she seldom survives the BCs. She's one of the best early rush targets imaginable, as she'd go for religions and the Oracle instead of Mining or BW D). Besides, you don't want to wait until she gets Conquistadors.

That could be due to difference in playing levels. On Monarch, I tend to box AIs like Pacal, Izzy and Gandhi in quickly while they tech yet another religion. That way they usually don't become a threat. So they make good allies. At least until I need to 'borrow' their shrines But I guess letting a weak civ live on higher difficulties is bad as they get lot more bonuses that become entrenched and way harder to dislodge down the road. And given how much butt a backwards Izzy kicked this game on the other landmass, I don't want to have to face her with Conquistadors

 

[UnforcedError]

Will that forking move work even if the Cuirs are positioned nearer to one city than the other? I thought the AI would just defend whichever city had the enemy troops closest to it. I sent the supear healer scout along with this stack of Cuirs. I am not sure if I should have had a cavalry healer though. Doesn't seem to make the stack any less mobile. But that might change with promotions like Commando coming into play.

You can really confuse the AI by forking cities and you can simply take the lesser defended city first. Having a healer in a stack is always a must (except for kamikaze pillaging troops), even if you don't have a GG handy.

It took me a while to learn to overkill on siege and that learning stuck a bit too well because I just feel weird attacking without siege and collateral these days. But I will try more cavalry warfare in future games if that's what works on higher levels.

I didn't want to generalize like that. Siege is always nice but it's the 'cautious' play you can't always afford on the higher levels (at least I definitely can't ). If you can get your siege units early then by all means, use them. On immortal I sometimes end up with no more than 4-5 cities in the early days, And libbing MT and pre-building horse archers or elephants for upgrades can be a life-saver there. (I generally use spies for revolts though.)

That could be due to difference in playing levels. On Monarch, I tend to box AIs like Pacal, Izzy and Gandhi in quickly while they tech yet another religion.

That's a good tactic on the higher levels too, if the map allows you to do that.

 

[Smilingrogue]

This was a long and quiet session. I had a lot of fun playing it as I learned several new things, but it might not be very fun to read a detailed report of me saying "I built a factory in city X" over and over again. So I am going to summarise the turnset with important points. Hopefully, things will pick up next update when I use what I did this time for a war or two and go for the finish.

I start off by accepting Louis' capitulation and gift Lyons back to him.

Spoiler :

I cancelled troop builds, went Organised Religion and Bureaucracy and started forges, banks and other infra that was sorely lacking in my poor whipped cities. Mumbai got the Heroic Epic and Machu Pichu got the National Epic as it already had lots of GPP accumulating from the wonders Huayna built there.

Joao offered to be a peace vassal but I turned him down.

Spoiler :

I don't like peace vassals as they are mostly free from my influence and I am essentially protecting them and getting nothing in return. Joao is pretty advanced too. I would have had to trade him some very good techs to take what I would have told him to research if I took him as a vassal. I prefer to take techs through war capitulation in that situation.

Louis built the Statue of Liberty in an already crammed city with Spiral Minaret, Sistine and Taj.

Spoiler :

I settle a city, curse Louis for adopting emancipation and take Democracy from him for Economics and Militray Tradition.

Spoiler :

I finish teching Biology and instantly fall in love with the tech. I tend to spam farms and this tech is probably the best thing that happened to me all game.

A popup tells me I am the most advanced civ with Joao second, Bis third.

Spoiler :

War on the other continent is still in full swing as Izzy got two Great Generals and Sal one. I plop another city to work the wine tile and build wealth till the end of game after a Courthouse.

Spoiler :

Saladin adopted emancipation, too, making me rage. I feel the last tier of techs are underwhelming. Why do these AIs adopt Emancipation? They can't be building cottages this late into the game.

I tell Joao once and Izzy and Sal several times that I am not a charity and won't help them. Joao is still pleased. Stay in Hereditary Rule and Joao will love me no matter what I do. That made me sad. Then I got mad since he built the Kremlin.

Spoiler :

I don't even have Communism yet, no fair!! But there was some comedy in all this as Joao switched to Emancipation!! (Give yourself a cookie if you guessed the civic right) one turn before he finished Kremlin. It wouldn't be so bad if both Bis and Sal didn't already have that tech for a while. He could have lost that wonder if they were going for it by switching. Oh well.

Huayna finally finishes Communism. I trade for it by giving him Democracy and Militray Tradition.

Spoiler :

I check my Financial screen and don't take State Property as the extra Trade Routes are bringing in more money on average through Free Market than SP would have saved by eliminating distance maintenance.

Spoiler :

I also finished teching Electricity and unlocked Broadway. I would like to have it for the happiness resources but it wasn't a priority. I go over the still available wonders to see if burning one of my two Great Engineers was worth it for Broadway. I think I saw it in a video by TheMeInTeam or I might have read it on the forums somewhere, but apparently Projects can't be rushed by GE. So Internet, Manhattan and Space Ship is out of the equation (I am assuming SS parts work like Projects. I am not sure as I never built any). Pentagon, Eiffel Tower, Rock and Roll, Broadway and Hollywood are all very nice wonders I would like to have, but I won't be too bothered if I don' get them. Christo Redentor sounds great, but I am already Spiritual, so it's redundant. I finally settle on using the GE for Mining Inc. I deal for Corporations from Louis to enable them.

Spoiler :

I know I said I didn't like Corporations, but I can't really judge well till I try it. Besides, I will get at least 12 hammers just off the metals I have in my control already. How bad can it be?

Apparently pretty bad! I panicked when Corps started giving me something like 17 GPT maintenance per turn. I feared I might bankrupt myself. But once I started spreading the Corps to hammer cities, I was ok with it. Sure, the maintenance is too high for my liking, but the hammers are not bad. I founded the Corp in Delhi which also had the Wall Street, so the Head Office paid partially for the branches.

Spoiler :

The war on the other continent ended and suddenly Izzy and Sal hate me more than they hate each other. Er, I wasn't the one bombarding your cities and pillaging your lands. Bis adopts Emancipation on top of it. I still stubbornly refused to swap. They will never take me alive!!! (Well, maybe they will if I don't milk the hell out of Organised Religion to build all those happiness buildings...)

I build Iron Works in Hyderabad. It and Chennai had the same amount of hammers after Levees but Hyd has more food to brave the unhealthiness and run the Engineer specialists.

Spoiler :

I have to thank Um the Muse here for suggesting Chennai's spot. I originally planned it couple squares North and it wouldn't have had as many river tiles there. Now, with levee and watermills, it has the highest raw hammer output of all my cities.

I trade for Assembly Line from Louis for Biology and Railroads. I get him to switch to Slavery too.

Spoiler :

Why not, I am scraping the bottom of the barrel here in my fight against Emancipation anger by building Masoleums. Every little bit helps.

I finish researching Flight. I use a Great Prophet to start a Golden Age and set research to Plastics via Industrialism. I use the GA powered production to que Factories everywhere.

Spoiler :

Even during Golden Age, someone's GNP is higher than mine.

Spoiler :

That worries me. Delhi built Oxford, finally. That was late, but better late than never I guess. The boost from it wasn't as great as I was hoping for though. Maybe I am doing something wrong here.
I get to Industrialism and Ivory obsoletes losing me a bunch of trades. I swing other deals to make up for it. I even fleece Joao for 17 GPT for cow since Bismark wisened up and cancelled the 16 GPT for Crab deal.
I have four sources of Aluminum.

Spoiler :

Well, technically three as one's with Huayna. I just need to mine two sources, with one already mined. Joao has a source way North. I think I will let Huayna keep his source and gift one to Louis as he has no Aluminum. Louis could shape up to be a good war ally so I want him to have all the tools necessary.

Izzy and Bis have Aluminum, Sal doesn't. But Bis has a spare so Sal might get it from his master.

Spoiler :

The turn my GA ended, I landed the Pentagon. I only queued it expecting to fail as almost everyone had the tech to build it. Not going to complain about getting it though.

Spoiler :

I whipped Broadway as Machu Pichu had angry citizens. Something about Cruel Oppression or some bother....

Spoiler :

Isabella twists my arm to adopt Judaism.

Spoiler :

I agree reluctantly as I didn't want war with her. Her power rating's identical to mine and some of my cities sitll have 40 + Turns of whip anger. In other news, Bis lost his marbles again as he gave me 23 GPT for one source of Hit Musicals. Er... thanks!!

I finish Plastics and set research to Computers via Radio. I want to lock down Internet for denial purposes. And at this point the noob in me panicked a bit as I couldn't build Three Gorges Dam in Macu Pichu where my engineers were asleep. Apparently it can only be built in riverside cities. I rushed one off to the Iron Works city to help finish it there.

Bismark's in WHEOOHRN mode and demands I cancel trade with Isabella. She's in Mercentalism so I am not getting any trade income off her. But I do have active trades for Iron and Pig, both of which I need for health and Mining Inc. I turn Bismark down. He was already in war mode, so I am hoping he sticks to attacking Izzy. If Bis switches targets to me, that's not ideal, but not the end of the world as it would just change the order in which I planned wars.

Three Gorges Dam is done and it gives my production a huge boost.

Spoiler :

More than what I got from Golden Age. Very nice.

Spoiler :

I played till turn 300. I feel I am not doing too well. But learning late game has been fun and I think even I can't screw this one up. Demographics look really good. I am second in GNP, but first by a mile in Production and Crop. I am unsure who's the top GNP Civ as I don't have vision on everyone, but I guess it won't matter. I am five turns from finishing Computers. I am building the Radio wonders for Failgold (Izzy had radio for a few turns now. She must be building the wonders)

My tech:

Spoiler :

Where I stand in tech compared to the rest:

Spoiler :

I am planning on using Marines and Destroyers with Carriers and Submarines thrown in to attack Joao, force him to capitulate and then load the army onto ships to sail for the other continent. Is that a viable strategy? I am not too worried about holding cities on the other continent. I will probably take a couple to get a base for aircraft, but if it looks like I can't hold a city, I will just burn it and move on till they capitulate. I have lots of saved up cash to upgrade my Cavalry. I will wait till I have advanced flight, upgrade them to Attack Helicopters and move them to the other continent.

Overall, this was probably a very dry and wordy update to read, but to me it was a lot of fun. This is all completely new territory to me and I had fun trying out corps and literally giggled when I check demographics after TGD and found I have twice as much production as the next competitor. Thoughts, Critique and Suggestions are welcome. Thank you for reading

 

[UnforcedError]

Thanks for the detailed report It's pretty late in the game but it's definitely winnable at this point. you just have to decide how you want to win.
1. If you want to win conquest or dom, peace vassal Joao. Why do you want to do it the hard way? Did he build something you really want? Vassal him and turn your attention to the other continent.
2. If you have a holy shrine city always build Wall Street (and found corps) there.
3. I wouldn't upgrade all cuirs into helicopters. Someone must take the cities after all.
4. Since you built the Internet it's quite safe to go space too if you want unless someone's closing in on culture. (Didn't check this in the save and now I'm at work.)
5. You can also nuke the other continent to the ground if all else fails until they capitulate.
6. Or, since you went for corporations you can also try to get a GM and found Sushi too, for a nice diplo win.
7. Why aren't you building a navy instead of all those wonders?

 

[Smilingrogue]

Thanks for the detailed report It's pretty late in the game but it's definitely winnable at this point. you just have to decide how you want to win.
1. If you want to win conquest or dom, peace vassal Joao. Why do you want to do it the hard way? Did he build something you really want? Vassal him and turn your attention to the other continent.

2. If you have a holy shrine city always build Wall Street (and found corps) there.

3. I wouldn't upgrade all cuirs into helicopters. Someone must take the cities after all.

4. Since you built the Internet it's quite safe to go space too if you want unless someone's closing in on culture. (Didn't check this in the save and now I'm at work.)

5. You can also nuke the other continent to the ground if all else fails until they capitulate.

6. Or, since you went for corporations you can also try to get a GM and found Sushi too, for a nice diplo win.

7. Why aren't you building a navy instead of all those wonders?

1. When Joao offered to Peace Vassal, I was not confident he would stick. I had a bunch of cities still whipped and he was briefly outteching me. I didn't want to take him and then find out he went space under my nose. I also had a very small edge on him techwise which I would have had to give up to trade for his techs. He will likely trade what I traded to him to the other continent as he was in love with them.

2. I had two holy shrines. Mumbai was Confu and Cuzco was Buddhist. But Delhi with all its cottages was generating more raw commerce than those two cities. So I built Wall Street there. Is that not a good move? Will having Wall Street in Shrine cities help better than in a cottaged up Buro Cap?

3. I built Mechanised Infantry for that

4. I ended up going space cause I am lazy! Louis was closing in on Culture though. He was two turns away from Paris going legendary when I finished.

5. I didn't find this route appealing. I got hit by Global warming and lost a Plains hill tile to it. That mechanic is weird. How on earth does Global Warming randomly turn a tile surrounded by greenery to a desert?

6. I wanted to try Sushi but the GM was generated so late that I just used him on a Golden Age. The Corp wouldn't have had an impact on the game at that point.

7. I was hoping to switch into Feudalism and Theocracy before starting another arms buildup. I was also waiting to let the cities grown back for another round of whipping. It didn't matter in the end though as I didn't have to whip or rush buy anything.

Write up till the game's end coming up. I wish to thank you UnforcedError as you helped me a lot through this game and I hope some of the things you told me stick. (More workers!! )

 

[Smilingrogue]

At the start of this turn set I got a popup informing me I am the richest Civ and Bismark's the poorest.

Spoiler :

Enter Bismarck demanding I hand him my entire war chest of 4670 gold.

Spoiler :

I stop and think about it for a bit. I am making money at a healthy clip. Bismarck's the third most advanced AI, has all the tools to bring a

war to my continent and has the largest army on the map. (Twice my power as I will later find out). He was in war mode when he made the demand and could easily switch from Isabella (his worst enemy) to me if I don't give in. After thinking along these lines, I tell him to go to hell!

I take a good look at my cities and finally adopt Emancipation.

Spoiler :

The anger was negligible. I had crammed enough happiness buildings in every city in expectation of a mass draft/whip for a war in the near future. But it didn't make sense to draft or whip as my core troop producers had enough hammers to build modern troops in two turns and the food heavy cities had tons of unhealthiness to make whipping/drafting unappealing. I am unsure if I should feel proud I held my ground in face of emancipation anger for so long or stupid for not realising I was doing it in vain. I will go with stupid.

Bismarck declares on Isabella. I gift Isabella Railroad, Rifling and Military Science in return for 210 gold.

Spoiler :

It's in vain though. Izzy lost three cities on turn three of the war and was soon a vassal of Bismarck. She put up a hell of a fight though. She had more Great Generals than Saladin and Bismarck combined.

I have a pest on the continent that needs to be taken care of. I shoot off the following mail to Joao:
Dear Joao,
Hope this letter finds you in good spirits and health. We had a surge in young men wearing silly yellow hard hats around here lately and they insisted we build glorious monuments as a testament to our empire's magnificence. After much persuasion, I decide to put my humility aside and agree to these monuments to avarice.

They called them the Eiffel Tower.

Spoiler :

Rock and Roll

Spoiler :

The Internet

Spoiler :

The Hollywood

Spoiler :

And finally the UN

Spoiler :

The UN gave us a lot of grief as no sooner than it was built, a lot of uncouth, unwashed, uneducated, uncivilised and plain unpleasant people calling themselves 'Delegates' flooded into our empire. I now see why it is called the 'UN'. These ruffians decided to hold and assembly and proclaim one of the leaders of the world to be their Chairperson who can propose binding resolutions to be passed. Being the humble ruler
of only the most awesomest empire ever!!!, I was naturally a candidate with Bismarck as competition.

Imagine my shock and hurt when Portuguese delegates voted for Bismarck instead of me!

Spoiler :

After all we have been through, is this how you act? Remember all the times I treated you like the doormat you really are, simply because me adopting Hereditary Rule meant you will never attack me? Remember all the times I sold you Crabs for 17 GPT? And remember all those Mechanised Infantry and Gunships I massed on your border? And to be repaid like this?

Then it occurred to me that your empire is far too large for you to manage and it was a simple miscommunication on your part. So, I am sending my own delegates to your nation to help make your empire more easily managed and to forge new bonds of friendship that will ensure your delegates know exactly who to vote for the next time there's an election.

Spoiler :

With best wishes,
Asoka.

Ladies and gents, I just wrote a letter to an AI. I am now officially insane! After that little lapse into madness, I realised that I am just dragging this thing out too long by insisting on winning conquest. I got Fission from Joao through a trade and built the Manhattan Project.

Spoiler :

I can carpet bomb the other continent till it is nothing more than an unrecognisable hunk of rock and sand. But I will still have to do a lot of warring before I can dislodge Izzy and Sal as Bis' vassals, then vassalise at least two of the three to win dom. So I decided to just take the route of least resistance and go space. I know, I am lazy!

During the war, I didn't feel like putting my Iron Works city on troops, so I landed the Space Elevator.

Spoiler :

I have read the debate on it being useless for a Space win, but I could get it, so I did. I don't think it made a difference though as I had twice as much production as the next best AI and was comfortably outteching everyone.

After a few turns of running through the tech tree, sabotaging UN resolutions by virtue of being the largest voting member and being a complete jerk to Bismarck, Isabella, Saladin, well, pretty much anyone not named Asoka, I build all Space Ship Parts to finish within a couple turns of each other and launch.

Spoiler :

I win the next UN election for Secretary General, but was a few votes short of winning the game.

Spoiler :

So I just got a few extra trade routes resolutions passed and on Turn 364, the Space ship arrived at Alpha Centauri. I won my first ever Civ game. It took hundreds of abandoned Warlord, Noble and Monarch games and a switch from Marathon to Normal speed, but I finally did it!

Spoiler :

It took me almost 21 hours to play this one.

Spoiler :

I blame that on meticulous notes I kept per turn to compare to Marathon. None of my cities finished in top 5, but that's alright.

Spoiler :

I probably had 15 of the top 30 cities and I will take a win over being in the list anyday. Endgame demographics look so lopsided it's not even funny.

Spoiler :

The exact point where the game was won was as soon as I built the Three Gorges Dam.

Spoiler :

The jump in production was just insane and even Bismarck, who had as many cities as I did, couldn't catch up even in a Golden Age.

My final score:

Spoiler :

It was a good game. I didn't expect things would go this smoothly. I did mess up and learnt some lessons along the way. More Workers for starters, don't build wonders without checking if I really need it and when fighting with Cuirs for the first time, read up on them instead of blindly upgrading them all to Flanking. I should also focus on getting GPs sooner as my first Great Person popped at 250 BC. On the upside, I have now seen a full game, been through the entire tech tree once and that gives me a better understanding of various stages of the game. I also fought and won three wars on Normal speed. I will call that a stepping stone in the right direction.

I wish to thank everyone who has guided me so I could get here. I had a lot of fun playing and I hope those who read this game enjoyed it too.

Thank you for reading, happy Civving, everyone!

 

[DMOC]

I have upgraded cuirassiers flanking a few times, but that's mostly to get the sentry promotion (after flanking I) since I like to split stacks and have one unit that can see an extra tile. For most of the stacks, I typically leave units unpromoted until I am next to a city I want to attack.

As far as great people go, a useful date I like to set for me is to have the first one appear by 500 BC, so 250 BC isn't that bad, especially if securing land is more important.

Are you going to play another game?

 

[UnforcedError]

Thank you for all the detailed write-ups. They were a lot of fun to read. And congratulations on your victory For a first Monarch win this was really awesome

Btw on a continents map I would often opt to go for space as well unless I'm first to Combustion. I just hate wooden transport ships.

Do you plan to play another game?

 

[UnforcedError]

2. I had two holy shrines. Mumbai was Confu and Cuzco was Buddhist. But Delhi with all its cottages was generating more raw commerce than those two cities. So I built Wall Street there. Is that not a good move? Will having Wall Street in Shrine cities help better than in a cottaged up Buro Cap?

Generally yes, as long as there's a decent number of cities of that religion. Holy shrines (and corporate HQs) provide you gold regardless of the slider. You did not go for a gold-economy here, so your Bur capital rather produced and not before becoming the Mining Inc. HQ. Meaning there was not that much gpt to be multiplied by Wall Street.

 

[Smilingrogue]

I have upgraded cuirassiers flanking a few times, but that's mostly to get the sentry promotion (after flanking I) since I like to split stacks and have one unit that can see an extra tile. For most of the stacks, I typically leave units unpromoted until I am next to a city I want to attack.

As far as great people go, a useful date I like to set for me is to have the first one appear by 500 BC, so 250 BC isn't that bad, especially if securing land is more important.

Are you going to play another game?

The comment on Cuirassiers was due to me upgrading them without first checking the odds on upgrading them with counter promos (Shock & Pinch). Otherwise, I am now playing the Noble's Club Shaka game and I love Impi's Mobility. So if I play with Cuirs again, I will definitely have a few with Flanking -> Mobility. But I will also have some suited to the job on hand.

Thank you for all the detailed write-ups. They were a lot of fun to read. And congratulations on your victory For a first Monarch win this was really awesome

Btw on a continents map I would often opt to go for space as well unless I'm first to Combustion. I just hate wooden transport ships.

Do you plan to play another game?

Thank you. In hindsight, had I not warred Joao at all, I could have probably won Space much earlier. But I wanted to get the UN in my pocket first. As for intercontinental warfare, I was hoping I could airlift units and use Air force for that, but after personally seeing how it works, I realised I would still have to mass a navy and at least land a capturing force of Mecha Infantry and Gunships.

Generally yes, as long as there's a decent number of cities of that religion. Holy shrines (and corporate HQs) provide you gold regardless of the slider. You did not go for a gold-economy here, so your Bur capital rather produced and not before becoming the Mining Inc. HQ. Meaning there was not that much gpt to be multiplied by Wall Street.

Ah.... I seem to have fallen for the trap of confusing Commerce with Gold. Wall street in Shrine city makes sense when you put it that way. I could have chosen either Holy City as both religions were spread to some 30 cites by the time the Corp was founded. Another lesson learnt.

As for playing another game, I am currently playing NC Shaka and then I want to see the Financial X Organised games through. I do have a plan for an Isolationist Tokugawa game I would like to play, but I am not sure if I will go through with it as I didn't generate much interest for this game. I do appreciate all the help I got though.