MP Game - RewriteHistory - 18civ EARTH map historical start position

[bamf226]

Well I didn't know anything about this double move thing till recently but surely having an undefended captial eliminated you? I understand your stance here but if there was any possibility of losing your capital whether by fair means or foul... if it was a possibility surely the best strategy is to err on the side of caution?

The side of caution was never given. Elkad was under no immediate threat; once war was declared, zen got two moves before elkad could even react.

 

[whiplash_CDC]

It's even worse with mounted units or ships. You can actually die before even seeing the enemy.

 

[bamf226]

I do not agree double move rules.
Lets say is 5pm to me... if i have to wait 6 hrs i would have to play the turn at 11pm.
11pm is a very late hour for me and i ussually sleep at that time. The deepest sleep is between 11pm and 1 am ... staying awake after 11pm is not recommended by doctors.
In the morning i will wakeup and go to work/faculty. I do not mhave the time to play civ4.
I think letting 1-2 hours to play a turn for the other party is reasonable enough.

Your own example weakens your argument. What is 5pm for you is easily 1AM for another player. By your stance, if a person can't wake up to take his turn before your second, that is ok.

The timer is on 20 hours. You should be able to take your turn at the same time every day without a problem. Take your turn at 5 pm. Other person reacts. Calendar advances. Take your turn again at 5 pm.

 

[whiplash_CDC]

If you hadn't noticed adyyc is involved in this. He is the India player who apparently is allied with Zen in a double team.

 

[Ulfang]

The side of caution was never given. Elkad was under no immediate threat; once war was declared, zen got two moves before elkad could even react.

Well but it was possible that someone could get there by a double move but the caution would be not to leave anything to chance. I've not had my captial undefended since my first warrior was built and wouldn't leave it undefended. As I said earlier this wouln't have been a problem if there was a set limit to when war could be declared but that should have been decided at the beginning. I don't think there should be any rules in war as there aren't any in real life.

This double move exploit is something specific to Pitboss (prior to this Game I've only played PBEM in the past which double moves can't happen of course) but if there is something exploitable it's pretty obvious someone will do it at some point.

I think if I was at war (which I am) I wouldn't be making sure someone had taken their turn prior to mine. It is a problem of course as it doesn't feel fair but it's not Zen's fault this exploit is possible but the Pitboss system. When Hitler invaded Belgium did he wait a bit to let the allies take their turn??

It's even worse with mounted units or ships. You can actually die before even seeing the enemy.

Don't get me wrong I do agree with you. It isn't fair and is a problem but it's a problem with the Pitboss system not a specific player. I'm not sure making "gentlemen's agreements" is going to work. If a player is in a desperate position or in any position when at war they are going to want to do everything to give them an advantage.

I agree that if someone has stated they will not do something and then do it then it's disappointing but then again this is war. It's not a system based on trust...

Furthermore if you receive an email saying that there's a new turn then it should be ok to play your turn rather than check if everyone has played there's. I thought that was the whole point of Pitboss being server based. So the turn can continue as quickly as possible.

 

[adyyc]

You seem to have understood it when you posted this.

In MP civ3 double move was considered moving at end of turn 1 and at the beginning of turn 2 and was not considered cheat. It was a triky move for suprising and eliminating with mounted units.
I did understand by double move the above... I think Zen understood the same...

 

[adyyc]

The side of caution was never given. Elkad was under no immediate threat; once war was declared, zen got two moves before elkad could even react.

I was the first who declared war on Persia a turn before Zen did... Persia did not protect his capital... also my warrior was just near empty capital (as zen warior was) before the eliminating turn... i could also take his capital like zen did....
Persia did risky moves, i do not doubt this...

 

[whiplash_CDC]

OK, the game is down until we decide what to do.

 

[bamf226]

I think if I was at war (which I am) I wouldn't be making sure someone had taken their turn prior to mine. It is a problem of course as it doesn't feel fair but it's not Zen's fault this exploit is possible but the Pitboss system. When Hitler invaded Belgium did he wait a bit to let the allies take their turn??

Just because there is a known exploit does not mean it should be used. Were this a tournament or the winner receiving some sort of prize, I don't know that I would be as vocal as I have been. But this is a game for fun. Anyone desperate to win should be playing in something a little more high stakes.

I agree I shouldn't have to wait for my opponent to take a turn. That's why most MP games refer to a 6-8 hour policy. This is not unfair as it takes into account all time zones. This seems to be completely lost in the discussion. We obviously can't all play at once. Expecting that a player can log into the game within two hours of the turn advancing is a bit much.

As best I can recall, Hitler (and any other leader starting a war) isn't playing a game. Ok, there's an exception to everything. *George W. Bush*

Furthermore if you receive an email saying that there's a new turn then it should be ok to play your turn rather than check if everyone has played there's. I thought that was the whole point of Pitboss being server based. So the turn can continue as quickly as possible.

This is fine in periods without warfare. You are not effecting anyone else with your moves if you aren't at war. Once war starts, it should become a turn-based system between the opponents. Chess is a game of war. How many times do you get to move twice without the other person making a move in between?

 

[bamf226]

I was the first who declared war on Persia a turn before Zen did... Persia did not protect his capital... also my warrior was just near empty capital (as zen warior was) before the eliminating turn... i could also take his capital like zen did....
Persia did risky moves, i do not doubt this...

Sounds like the two of you had it in for him regardless of what he had done. If he had a warrior in his capital, the two of you could have double teamed to take him out. Not only did Zen stab Elkad in the back, but he stabbed you as well.

 

[Levgre]

a double turn rule is pretty much necessary in pitboss games, imo. Otherwise you have battles between people trying to get online right when the new turn starts, which is kind of silly.

It's one of the main reasons I play pitboss too, because in online games often you live or die by the double move... it becomes more FPSish(rushing to press keys) rather than turn-based strategy-ish.

 

[karayanev]

So why are we wasting 3 days not playing? Just reload the game before P got killed and that is it. To wait on someone who is out of town makes no sence. Would you do that for me too?

Seriously lets go back to the game. W u are the host so make a decission and lets have fun.

Totally against holding up the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[karayanev]

Yes I agree Zen making a U turn on what he posted just couple of days ago here.

NO Double moves Please.

SO YES reload the game!

 

[mikeyia]

Since there seemed to of been no clear directive on double moves or even understanding of a double move by the original host I say we agree to disagree and adobt a no double move rule as of now, reload and get on with this game. Don't think Persia would last much longer anyways since being doubled up on.

 

[Hoplosternum]

I agree with bamf, this is meant to be a fun game and this is a well known exploit.

The double move issue is a well known issue with Pitboss. There are few good games that don't try and outlaw it as far as is possible. I've been in one where it was allowed and especially later on it is very unbalancing. Your whole game can be wrecked by a double move. Later on it gets worse, no one can permenantly garrisson everything well enough to fend off a double move from someone who knew what they were doing. And losing a city or two at the start of a war, especially if that has some vital war making commodity, is crippling. And don't think you can counter attack to recover from it. It will be razed....

There are two big exploits of the pitboss system that can happen in war time and both are usually considered illegal. And they are both due to the nature of Pitboss and so unique to it. Double moving (like in this case) and partial moving but not ending your turn. e.g. when you make moves (either offensive or defensive) before your opponent has a chance to respond to your last move but you don't end your turn. Then after his turn go back in and complete your turn. It's sort of like double moving but even stronger as you both double move your opponent and get to make some final adjustments after his move to attack or reposition again. The main advantage of Civstats is to track these abuses.

I appreciate, Zen, that you may not have been aware that what you were doing was considered an exploit by most Pitboss players. So lets just replay the turn. Misunderstandings will happen and are likely to again, but it can be easily sorted out in this case.

It doesn't leave you in a bad position. If you have an ally you should still be able to take him out without resorting to using tactics most people consider cheats. If you think his capital is too strong to take then you can at least stop him building Immortals and so neutralise him. So the war under it's original stated aim will probably succeed. Once you have a counter to Immortals you can either take him out or make peace.

And to Ulfang - yes this issue is due to the nature of Pitboss. While you could just "live with it" I think Pitboss would die off if no house rules of player conduct were followed. So most of us accept the need for a couple of house rules in return for the much faster game play that Pitboss gives over PBEM. It's not much of a restriction, you couldn't exploit PBEM or the AI like this so we are not taking away anyones favourite strategy.

And as Bamf says if you play at the same time every day it is unlikely that you ever need be inconvenienced by this as you won't be double moving anyone that way. And outside of war you can double move to your hearts content.

 

[Pexicus]

Voting for reload. Lets get on with it, folks. And everyone involved, shake hands, now.

 

[zenspiderz]

There seems to be two definitions of double move here.

1. Waiting until the turn timer is nearly out, playing your turn then immediately after the new turn begins moving again.

2. Any out of sequence play.

Most of you seem to be using def 2.

I am more used to definition 1. But I am a MP noob and this is only the second game I have ever hosted, so what do I know?

BUT there is a HUGE problem with def 2 that most of you seem so keen on.

Player A plays his turn first then player B. Next turn. Player B logs on and finds Player A hasn't played his turn. Player B waits. Player B waits more. Player B waits a few hours more. His employer/wife/business partner/whatever calls asking why player B missed his appointement. Player doggedly waits on as his life dissapears down the tubes. 3 mins from the end of turn timer Player B succumbs to exhaustion and sleeps. Player A 1 min from turn timer end cheekily plays his turn....

Now that is just a big an exploit as anything.

If we reload because of this then we are stuck with a double move rule that allows the first mover to effectively prevent the later players from playing at all. And that STINKS.

PLEASE def 1 is only one that works. Elkad HAD plenty of opportunity to defend his capital and he passed it up. If nothing else he could have set auto moves then left his PC logged on to the game so when the turn timer flipped his warrior would reached base before anyone regardless of when he chose to play. More importantly he could left a permanent defence like the rest of us.

 

[Elkad]

PLEASE def 1 is only one that works. Elkad HAD plenty of opportunity to defend his capital and he passed it up. If nothing else he could have set auto moves then left his PC logged on to the game

97 minutes is not "Plenty of opportunity" on a 24hr timer. Thats all the time you gave me to respond to your war move (the time when I couldn't move because my turn had already finished does not count).

Look at the rules on page one of basically every game here. All have double-move rules. None require you to wait 23hrs and 59 minutes, just to give the other player an opportunity. Generally half the timer (12hrs or so) would be considered just fine.

RE:leaving my game logged in..

I'm in 4 games currently. I'm in a war in 2, so which one do I choose to leave running? Any auto-move I would have made would have been based on being at war solely with Adrian anyway.

 

[Hoplosternum]

BUT there is a HUGE problem with def 2 that most of you seem so keen on.

Player A plays his turn first then player B. Next turn. Player B logs on and finds Player A hasn't played his turn. Player B waits. Player B waits more. Player B waits a few hours more. His employer/wife/business partner/whatever calls asking why player B missed his appointement. Player doggedly waits on as his life dissapears down the tubes. 3 mins from the end of turn timer Player B succumbs to exhaustion and sleeps. Player A 1 min from turn timer end cheekily plays his turn....

Now that is just a big an exploit as anything.

If we reload because of this then we are stuck with a double move rule that allows the first mover to effectively prevent the later players from playing at all. And that STINKS.

No I don't think this is correct.

When you are at war one of you is 'going first' and this should stay the same throughout the war. It is traditional on a 24 hour (or similar) timetable that the player going first gets usually the first 10 hours to take his turn. If he doesn't take his turn and the second player can't wait any longer then a double move is allowed. Most players can handle this, but if one or other cannot due to real life commitments then you talk to one another and try and work something out.

This has been done in many many games. The games which have problems are the ones which don't have such a rule not the ones that do.

It is easy to watch for via CivStats and so easy to enforce. There can of course be problems, especially if you wait until the last minute to declare war in a turn then your opponent does not login for 10 hours and you take advantage and take a double move. But most people don't try to cheat there way to victory like this and those that do get a reputation very quickly. And games which try and limit these exploits tend to be better than those that do not.

I think you are imagining problems will come if you set a no double move rule as a precident when in many many games that is not the case. Taking turns in order is a fundemental part of playing fair and with CivStats it's easy. No one is cheated. Of course people can still try and exploit the system. But it is fairly obvious when they are doing it and at least such house rules try to minimise it.

 

[IanDC]

In MP civ3 double move was considered moving at end of turn 1 and at the beginning of turn 2 and was not considered cheat. It was a triky move for suprising and eliminating with mounted units.
I did understand by double move the above... I think Zen understood the same...

The DM in civ3 was as you describe, a well executed one was a thing of beauty but the big difference was that the defender in online play was always there & able to spot it & counter it if his preparation was sound. I remember many a time in the last seconds of a turn repeatedly scanning my borders looking for hostiles in the brutal environment of one city elimination.

On the current situation it looks like a misunderstanding of the rule leading to a DM which needs to be corrected. Hoplosternum's explanation of how the 10 hour (half the clock) rule works sums it up nicely.