MrB4...Beyond the PC Problems

[Mr. Blonde]

To your suggetions:

The privateer was healing after he dealt with a caravel. I would also disband warriors. I think there are a couple of city raider swords which should become rifle specialists for our attack stacks.

Research: steam power, then steel and RR, imo. Hmm... democracy might have to be researched in between. We don´t want S-man or G-man to build SoL. Didn´t check, but I don´t think this tech is out. So, steam power first, then maybe democracy.

Our great merchant could be saved for Sid´s sushi company if saves prove compatible (we shouldn´t need that much $$ after the patch anyways)

Batt will probably play tomorrow evening, so you can take your time testing

 

[Mr. Blonde]

I checked the save again after installing 3.13:

We are at -26 gpt, which is a difference of 30 or so (custom houses + inflation + capped colony maintainance)

The AIs have a slightly better attitude towards us (S-man would make open borders and is at 0 with us).

The next merchant comes in 30 turns latest, which is before we get medicine, so the current active one can make his trade mission.
Tech: The AI lack PP and Representation before they could research democracy - I would research steam power, then democracy and when all the lumbermills are finished we start steel -> RR. Assembly line (Infantry!!)would after steam power also just be one tech away...
Sid´s sushi needs medicine which is researched Scientific method -> biology -> medicine. Sci method we don´t research until we have RR I say, it costs us all those +10% research from monasteries.

The important part is imo if we go for Assembly line (aggressive strategy, would aim for it if we go/are at war) ) or if we go for Sid´s sushi after RR (builder strategy). Sid´s is +8 food for every city (and some more with biology!) and a small $ gain if founded in Dheli (our future wall street city). 4 additional specialists...and more food (after biology) which means more run workshops/engineers (factories with assembly line) for our war machine. With sea dominance and infantry against rifles/longbows we could really wreak havoc.

All in all: we want consensus on tech strategy now. I am out tomorrow (have a look at some flats in Tirol), so I would appreciate a discussion between you, batt and Belisar until we have a conclusion.

 

[Belisar]

We may want to stop the game for 1 or 2 days until everything is clear.

I tested with older games and noticed significant inflation/maintenan changes but also found out that there is already a "patch for the patch"

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=246057

worth, looking at it.


A side note: for such continent games the improved custom house (100% on intercont. trade) is really nice

Good luck in "down-up" MrB

 

[batteryacid]

So. I looked up the save and have some thinking for the tech strat:

We are now in the modern aera a lot of juicy techs to choose, so I try to break them down somehow according to our mid-term invasion strat:

RR: a must! + Production, + MAchine Gunners and + easy movement inside our continent for fast shipment

Military Science: + Military Academy, + Ship of the line but: do we really need ship of the line when we can transfer our units within one turn? Not really a "must " as railroads for the moment

Scientific Method/Physics: + cheap great scientist + Oil + Uranium revealed + Airships: In my last game I found (well actually AI used them excessively) to be really useful; perehaps some alternative to the Ship of the line sea defense (see it as nice plus for the free scintist and the revealed bonuses)

Biology/Medicine: + food (Tons of food for our specialist cites) + Sid´s Sushi + Health - we have to look for the happy cap and would need Drama and the culture slider running to make use of these techs, especially when we go to war; also a real mid term goal: I don´t know the AI tech ways (perehaps we can have some of them cheap from Rhamses when he wants peace) but at the moment we are in front of tech pace so we can´t count on the AI

Assembly Line: + Infantry + the Pentagon - do we need Infantry when we have cavs? I say for mid term we can spare this tech until we run into troubles because of cavs being out of date

Communism: + state Property + permanent alliances: but state property not needed yet (especially when considering the new patch and that it would counter Sid´s Sushi which we really want)

So as a strat I would say for now: Steam Power->Steel->Railroad then Scientifc Method->Physics to secure the Scientist and add Airships to our next war ; then Biology->MEdicine (when bulping them earlier my fear is we further diverse and delay from our war-expansion mid term goal).

Assembly line we can spare til the point when our cav-war prooves too costy and we really need a Production plus combined with Infantry, but I think this should not be really necessary as our Cities are productive enough to pump out cavs; only problem that would make factories necessary is when S-man joins the war and throws tons of units on our army, but I think airships (which as stated before are enabled by Physics anyway) should be good enough to help us out in this situation

Question on the great merchant: we should wait with the dewcision, after the patch we perehaps will want to found Sid´s Sushi AND Cereal mills or creative constructions

After the first intercontinental war I think we will we will consolidate our empire during 1 or 2 turnsets when our cities hit the next level with Biology/medicine and spreading cooperations to the right places, and then go straight for Industrialization and tanks to finish our conquest victory !

Edit: could you hint me where and in which stacks the next Privateers should be positioned? do we make double - stacks or sourround Rhamses and Brennus with only 1 per city?

 

[Agrippa]

Hi, folks!

As I just love MM and statistics I had a brief look at your save in my leisure time. I checked possible upgrades for you and their costs and did a bit of evaluation.

2x CR3 swords and 1 xCR2 1 promo sword I would definitely upgrade to rifles, it´s $335 each
You have 2 CR2 swords and one CR2 Mace, undecided, but the mace costs "only" $200, so maybe this one is worth it.

4 Elephants you have ($290 to cav):
Combat2/Shock; Combat1 + 1 pormo; 1 promo, 2 promos. Forget the one with 1 promo. The others are more or less equal.

1 Horse Archer with 3 promos at $335 -> yup

3 Curassiers with 2 promos at $110 -> yup

3 caravels -> frigates at $155 -> maybe later

To sum it up: If you add the "definitely" ones you spend $1870 (3 swords, mace, horse archer); $870 for 3 Phants -> cav; $670 for 2 more swords

You have $2500 in stock, so you could decide if you want more cav or more CR rifles for the moment.

General advice: build some workers; for sid´s suchi a fish in Ankaras borders should not be forgotten and a workboat for Malatya is needed. Also some modern city garrison to replace those warriors and axes is needed just in case...

 

[Belisar]

A, some news from our strategic counselor Agrippa
I agree on upgrading CR units. I can already see the CR-infantry and this is why
I don't want to deley assembly line for too long. Infantry has the added +25% against gunpowder
so we can use them against rifles.
I would not upgrade phants as we can already produce XP-11 horse-units with the stables (only in case of an emergency)

The cavs we produce have 3 purposes: Killing off invaders, Killing units on open ground and
finishing off weak defenders.

We should have one stack of CR-rifles (and later infantry) to take out the tough defenders.
Some airships would be nice for bringing down city defense.

TECH:
RR is definitely good but we have to fit in democracy so we can start SoL which will be huge for us.
This will not delay our invasion as we need to produce the ships/troops anyway.

As Med. is still some turns away we may want to ship the current merchant and found Sid's Sushi with the next one,
we need the cash for all the CR upgrades.


On the privateers: 1 per city and some support units loosely placed to replace the ones that are healing from
hunting down ships.
Keep an eye on the AI-tech, when they get Chemistry we need to switch the target and start building our own
frigates/ships of the line.

And we need a consent if we stick with 3.13 or go with the additional patch.

 

[batteryacid]

So, whats the current opinion on patching (and fix-patching)?

If no other comment I will patch and patch-fix today and then play some turns to mostly position the privateers (will built until we have ~10-14) and upgrade our swords and curassiers. When we don´t have coal we will have to discuss further strategy anyway

 

[Mr. Blonde]

I say yes to the patch + fix. Imo the financial situation is more balanced (for us AND the AI). Blitz ships don´t hurt either...

I say you research steam power, try to snatch in some workers and then evaluate hom much worker action is needed until lumbermills are built. It doesn´t make sense to go for RR too early.

Other tasks:
Upgrade said units and collect for invasion
Set the Great merchant for his mission
Build enough banks for Wall street (I guess our GP farm could build it maybe faster than the cities we set the missing 2 banks at the moment)
More privateers -> build a small stack in Brennus sea, maybe you advance with it into the bay sourrounded by Ramses cities and blockade some more cities there.
Build Galleons (3-4) + siege (2 Frigates and/or Trebs we need) for invasion. Btw: Frigates negate city walls now.
Work boat for Island city

 

[Belisar]

Sounds good to me, lets hurt Brennus and Ramses a bit more

So this is decided, 3.13 patch plus the additional fix.

 

[batteryacid]

So, as stated I patched and played until Steam Power is there
After our discussed promotions (we have now ~6 rifles and cavs but no siege weapons; 2 caravells, we need to upgrade for further 2 for our invasion) we have 400 gold - 40 but with our "shadow income" -10 gpt and the merchant is on his way (needs 3 more turns, is at tht moment in a transport near gilgamesh land).
The PRivateer side of our empire is running smooth; enemies stick now to NON powder units (Rhamses has about 4 units per city which are mixed Longbows, Knights and such)

now a very dramatic twist to our game: we have no coal
but... Guess who has and where it is positioned...

Spoiler :

From time to time this game is just ironic

For further discussion: bank building is a bit slow as our commerce cities are rather low on shields

Science:
with the enemy without gun powder and we without coal, RR can be delayed.
scientific method (4) and physics (10) will secure us the scientist and air and sea superiority
Assembly line(10): nice to have infantry, question if it is needed (when we have enough siege weapons I say it is not a must)
steel (6) and rr (11) are obligatory but not yet needed
as Biology and medicine (which need sci method anyway)
Democracy and SoL can be delayed a bit as our cities are very occupied for the invasion and building banks, but are a must for the second next player

Next great people have to be timed good as 20 and 22 turns are close and we will need the merchant the moment we can build sids sushi

heres the save

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Gentlemen *cough*, we are at war.

Seems someone above (the RNG god) made a decision for us. I say we delay democracy for the moment and research steel next for cannons. The primary invasion should also include 2 trebs; 2 frigates and one galleon need also to be built. Our production cities will be occupied with wargear, so no place to build SoL will be free soon.
We need Memphis and Elephantine to secure coal, thebes with its wonders is target no.3. After we conquered those, we vassalize Ramses and raze the AP (maybe we raze it more early). Should they call for a crusade, we bribe G-man and Izzy with cheap tech to join us. And again: Steel must be the next tech, we need powerful artillery now.

At the moment we have 4 cavs and 5 potent rifles. We need 2 defensive rifles, too so that our CR rifles are not eliminated. Don´t forget the medic2 chariot.

Edit: We can build 2-3 trebs now and upgrade them before launch.

 

[Belisar]

We own 1 continent totally and have not a single source of coal?
This is ridiculous, I don't think this ever happened in one of my continent-games before.
Is this source the only one within reach? If that's the case, Ramses has to die.
The goals for our initial invasion are still up for discussion.
Maybe a short raid to capture coal and raze the rest (and the AP) to get only 2-3 cities on that continent (colony maintenance tends to skyrocket after 4 cities) and reduce Ramses to a 2nd power empire.
Then a build up phase for the fight against S-man.

@batter: did you just stop to let us know the coal-problem and want a few more turns or should I take it?

 

[batteryacid]

I stopped ebcause we really have to make a good invasion plan now (detaile, about goals, how much mor units of which type etc.)

As I see it , we will have to make a 2-stack invasion, one for Rhamses and one to raze the AP and make Brennus a Vassal, and each stack will need about 3-4 rifles, 3 cavs and 2 cannons/trebuchets, we still have 2 additional healer chariots to mix in. Our Sea Superiority and enemy without gunpowder is a real advantage we should make use of ASAP. Other possibility would be 1 stack invasion, capturing 2-3 Rhamses cities (discussion about which except Capital and one to grab the coal and which to raze are up) and hope the AP influence will be not too bad. AS both continents don´t like each other we can always buy in and diverse Rhamses and especially S-man forces ( I think we can manage Rhamses and Brennus without help)
This means another turnset of building ~10 rifles to strengthen our city defenses and to replace the "ahem" *slightly* outdated warriors.

As who to play: I don´t know. Depends on when you have time, so I could play tomorrow or friday when you don´t have time; otherwise, if you could play tomorrow, MrB can play Friday and moi Sudnay, but we will need interruptions and discussions anyway as wartimes always need more concentration, so perehaps <10 turns between at least posting and discussion is a good idea, question is if we change players in between.


Other coal is very far away (you should look at the save for another possibility, but I don´t see one, Brennus has none, S-man has one far away as lizzy and Hammurabi)

So, now we really have interesting turnsets and I already feel the thrill of the next twists and turns of this game

 

[Belisar]

As I see it , we will have to make a 2-stack invasion, one for Rhamses and one to raze the AP and make Brennus a Vassal, and each stack will need about 3-4 rifles, 3 cavs and 2 cannons/trebuchets

Not nearly enough. The first invasion should have only one target, you never want to have 2 beachheads and attack 2 civs simult. even with a tech lead.
I say we need way more troops and are not in a hurry, at least double this numbers.
First invasion could target Brennus and raze everything or make him capitulate (vassal)
If Ramses doesn't declare, fine. if he declares, we play defensely for a few turns and absorb his initial attacks, then we advance and he gets all the WW from the SoZ.
I can not play today so you could take additional turns, you had only 6.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

As I see it, there are still some peacetime preparations to be made. Important: Agreement on research goal. Imo we need steel for cannons first, then we can decide if we need Assembly line or democracy. I could play today until the preparations are made. 3-4 galleons, a couple of frigates and cannons, maybe 1-2 defensive rifles and our offense stack we need.
Goals: Do we need to raze the AP and vassalise Brennus first or do we take Ramses capital + coal city? How imminent is the danger the whole continent launches a crusade? I guess S-man is the AP leader. Has anyone experience on how likely he is to agree on a crusade proposal from Brennus? How likely would Brennus be to raise a crusade proposal if we attack Ramses? The -5 happiness in conquered cities from defying the decision to give them back we should be able to handle. The only real danger is S-man joining them, imo.

Anyways, the first strike would be for you, Belisar

 

[Belisar]

I have experience with oversea invasions and even when there is no AP the continent sometimes gangs up on you.
(Because often there is one religious block)
This is a problem we must be prepared for and therefore we need more troops. If we can defend from a good position, we get XP, GGs and they get the WW. I'm therefore more leaning to attack Brennus first but I have to think this over when looking at the save.
You could take the save, MrB and continue building the forces (I agree on the cannons) but I will probably continue also with preparations. Fucus on cannnons, cavs and ships as we can build infantry later (to save money on upgrading rifles -> infantry)
The big prize would be amphibious infantry for the initial assault.

 

[batteryacid]

Ok, so let´s set the research goal (Assembly line or Steel, but I vote for steel as trebuchets are a poor siege weapon) and then either Democracy (is there a vote on switching to universal suffrage? AI suffering unhappyness and +hammers in town to finish our banks faster sounds ok to me but the sci output and + happy in our largest cities calls for keeping it until we have drama and mor happyness throur RnR or Hollywood )or Scientific Method

So playing few (~10) turns to complete our invasion force sounds good to me

edit: we should not forget about levees - build them now or after war preparation? I think the delaying is better as making use of our powder and sea superiority is really perssing before we face S-man or Rhamses with rifles

 

[Mr. Blonde]

So...I used the leisure time to play until steel was here.
A brief turnlog:

383: Trade mission is here, I use some $ to upgrade ships
385: our privateer action generates a GG I sank like 15 ships or so with them. Lots of wasted shields for the AI. It is up to the next person to decide. I vote for a superunit to aid our invasion.
386: Steel is here and I stop the game for a status report

Tech: No gunpowder, liberalism or Replacable parts here yet, other techs vary. Only S-man and Brennus can research democracy.
Our force collected in Bombay at the moment:

4 Galleons, 1 is finished next turn
2 Frigates
7 Rifles (5 with City raider promotions)
1 treb (travelling)
1 cannon (travelling), 1 finishes next turn
1 GG
5 Cavs

So: Cavs + Rifles + 3 siege = 15 units = 5 galleons

We have more than $3000 for upgrades available.

Brennus and Ramses have Macemen/Catapults as offensive forces, longbows for defense.

For the next player: annoy eastern continent with privateers. We want Brennus and Ramses to continue building weak ships. With 5 galleons + 3 cannons available in a couple of turns we can imo start the invasion, the question remains where.

Banks: 8 and 12 turns, then Dheli can start the Wall Street. I don´t think we need more workers at the moment. Our $ situation is stable (-20 before pirating return). Democracy in 6, Assembly line in 10 turns. Ironworks is not set yet, but can be started, cav set at the moment in our mil. city.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/49010/MrB4_386.CivBeyondSwordSave

Edit: 2 more facts: Gilgamesh and Brennus are, despite having different religions, pleased with each other, Izzy is friendly (damn trading). On the power graph we overtook Ramses slightly, Brennus has half of our power. I see 8-9 maces, 2 gallics, 3 longbows and a couple of catapulst in Bibicrate. Elephantine (alternative beachhead) has only 4 units inside. There is a forest hill S of Elephantine, ideal for landing on it (a pike is stationed there at the moment), and a wood-hill passage to Thebes from it.

Alternatively we smoke out (raze Bibicrate and conquer Vienne, make vassal) Brennus before we turn south.

 

[batteryacid]

@Belisar: as you are the next player, we have to decide when and where we want to build levees - we could throw them in in Edrine and IStanbul (when ist only 5-6 turns its ok) or delay until we have our Invasion stack ready, which will be with another cannon and and 2 more cavs and ~3 rifles to secure our coastal cities. (assuming attacking only Brennus or only Ramses first).

We can spare Assembly line for the moment when S-man or H-man joins the war; with our privateers we can defend before he reaches our border (I guess V... or our most north-eastern city on the main continent are our weakest points at the moment.

Another issue is when we intend to research Democracy - I think if we intend to switch to Universal Suffrage instead of Representation to give our commerce cities some prod. boost for banks and levees (in case it would profit enough) and to produce some unhappyness (how much /city can be expected?) for the AI, but if not, we can spare Dem. now

AL in 10 and SM I think in 6- so the decision is if we go for AL or for SM-Physics (16) to secure the free scientist and bulp perehaps some useful tech with him (and I admit I want to make use of the current situation to test the usefullness of those airships )

The industrial park at the moment is not needed yet

 

[Mr. Blonde]

I had a second thought on the invasion plans. Following points came up to my mind:

Razing the holy city with the AP might prove more desastrous than defying an AP decision. First of all, we lose a huge amount of relations with the civs having the state religion.
Second, S-man will definitely go to war with us after that and we lose Brennus as potential non-threatening trading partner. If it´s just -5 happiness in Buddhist cities this is imo the minor nuisance.
Third, we need the war to secure the coal and in our situation this means just 2-3 egyptian cities. Ramses is also more threatening concerning the tech output, imo. For me Ramses should be our target. A short first war to secure the coal is all we need at the moment.

What worries me most is the trading setting in between the other continents although they have different religions . I say we should trade with G-man to build him up as ally against S-man who will need some time to be brought down.

Edit: Our west-coast is a bit naked on ships and defense at the moment. I don´t want Gilgamesh or Izzy catching us in surprise there while we wage war far away.