MrB4...Beyond the PC Problems

How long is the Apostolic palace an Issue?
I thought that we will be head automatically when we grab it. Otherwise we can also try to spread buddhism in our cities, which will be possible with foreign trade routes and attack when we have sufficient weight in the AP . From the viewpoint of a Military campaign the easiest thing would be taking out first Brennus then Ramses; then we would grab 1 holy city and nearly all ancient WW. This side of the continent is easily defendable and has shortest transfer distance.
The other continent is way more bulky built thus we would always have enemy units from all directions and not from over 1 tile as is the case here (Imagine a nice stack with trebuchets softening down ALL enemy units that have to cross there)

We will make it step by steP : lets have a nice tech lead now, see if the enemy AIs begin to war each other and than decide on which continent we will set a foothold, but IMO (when ignoring the AP issue) taking BRennus and then Ramses (or over the north bridge England) will be logical; next logical thing would be to ally with a smaller AI and then sack the goodies from the Khmer or Hammurabi.

Hopefully everything will turn out nicely in the end
 
How long is the AP an issue? Could we just attract Buddhism with the southern city on the other continent (to be built), spread it, go free religion and then, when we are leader or second (I think we can block decisions with 40% vote or so) just take on Brennus and Ramses? The wonders and the holy city are just something we should not overlook. Plus, with the narrow passages we can easily defend + make a war of attriction against the Khmer leader...
The Hindu city is Madrid, on the other side of the world...

I could play tomorrow and thursday before noon.
 
I'm almost done but couldn't finish report yesterday as it was very late (or early...)
When I opened the save I already noticed a major
kiffnase.gif

as a barb axe was parking on our furs and there was a lonly CR-sword in the city!

We could try to get Bud as another religion but this would only support my vote for free religion to trade for health now and invade for the holy city later.
 
10 turns done,here is the summary:

Hmm, a barb axe on our furs, not good.
I can not attack and must hope that fortify and tile defense bonus are enough to hold the city.
I begin shuffling troops, some are really on the wrong place (not enough in the north)

The barb axe pillages the furs, next turn attacks the city and this was really close.
I MM GPs in Delhi to get the scientist in Bursa first.
We have Open Borders with Surya, I also sign with Gilgamesh. No Open Borders with the religious fanatics possible.
Send back a worker to get the furs online again, the rest of the worker force is clearing jungle and improving the new towns.

We clearly win the Lib-race as noone has even Education yet, Ramses is working on guilds and switched to caste.
We get the GS in Bursa and I have a special use for him...
Next is the GP in Delhi, 6 turns, we can start the GA together with the Merchant.
After the harbour Delhi starts it's science infrastructure for Representation, lib first (we need 6 unis for Oxford)

On turn 322 Surya chancels the Open Border agreement :( I had already planed to send an explorer over, now we have to use spies.
Several builds completed, Konya and Bursa have already built the useful infra so I set Bursa to science and Konya to spy.
Bombay starts on Maoi and will be a good shipyard once we get Chemistry.
I sneak in a quick workboat in Istanbul for the clam on the big island.
Ramses finished Notre.

On Turn 324 we get Liberalism and therefore Astronomy. Builds that are not urgent are set to obs.
Our GNP increases considerably due to oversea trading routes, unfortunately only Gilgamesh has OP with us.
Remember the scientist we got? He get's us 2800 flasks towards Printing Press which is due in just 2 turns and this will increase our GNP further.
I trade corn for cow with Gilgamesh as that really helps our growth/health situation, all negative health is gone with the exception of
size 17 Bursa and even this city is back on +5 food.


Suggestions: We need a settler for the island south out the main continent but as most workers are busy this is not top priority,
just try to sneak one in. ( the obs are way more important)
After the next GP Delhi should be optimized with merchants.
We could still go for the Taj Mahal as noone had Phil when I checked last and we net Nationalism for Rep anyway, would be nice if we have enough production.
1 spy is waiting in Vij.., 1 finishing on the west-coast, both should be send with the homecoming caravels.

Up to discussion: We can switsch to Free Speech and Free Religion but we also want Representation and Free Market.
This means we should switch the majority of the civics in the next GA, GP in Delhi comes in 2.
We could switch just Free Speech now and delay the GA for the other 3 civics until we get Eco/Rep.

Tech: we need a lot, Chemistry for ships and Rep for civics, guilds/banking for eco (we could trade for the later if we go Free Religion)

Free Religion will allow good relations with nearly all civs.
This has 3 major advantages: tech trades with the more backward civs so we can neglect some older techs and concentrate on important stuff
(we need the guilds/banking branche)
Very lucrative oversea trading routes, the ones that startet already with astronomy raised our GNP ~ +10% (more with Free Market)
And finally we can split up ressource deals (health), meaning we don't have to trade everything with Gilgamesh (who likes us because of civics)
I really would like to have a consens on this before anyone plays, lets discus now.

SAVE
 
Thanks for your play, Belisar.

My two cents: We could still finish the university of Sangakore, let´s view it as denial build. We surely don´t want that Gilgamesh or S-man to build it. Taj Mahal is an idea. We could have another GA for switching to Rep. and Free Market. I say we switch to Free religion + Free speech (we want to trade for guilds + banking later anyway and then research economy ourselves) with the coming GA, and still build U of S. I would rather build the southern city on the big island first; S-man has optics and will be first to hit Astronomy.
So: 2 civic switch now with a GA and then 2 later on with the Taj Mahal.
I say we don´t take a following GA if we have to burn 3 GP, let´s just accept 2 turns of revolution then.
I could play tomorrow before noon if we agree on this strategy or Friday if we need discussion.
 
Noone has Optics yet.

The advanced AIs are Brennus and Ramses, they can research Optics.
The other continent (with S-man) even lacks machinery, so no Optics.
I count this as good news because the two most advanced AIs are way smaller (Brennus isn't dangerous at all, he just has the Bud-shrine)

I noticed we could fit in a quick settler and go for a site in the south of the new landmass (fish, sheep, marble, floodplain) which would secure the Taj Mahal. We need the sheep anyway and a missionary is already waiting for a quick border bop.

That said, I agree on GA, switch to Free Religion/Free Speech and a second switch later. Don't trade away the prerequ. for Eco too soon as we want the free GM.
There is a possibility that we get another GM in Delhi, in that case we should send him to Temple of Artemis. (Need 2 different GPs for GA)
 
A side note:
I checked, a trade mission to Madrid would currently net 3150$, not bad.
(You can check by clicking on the merchant, hold down shift, right-click on target city and mouse over trade mission icon)
 
To grab the marble, the most southern city would have a spot 1 E of the southern sheep, which would also get us the southern wheat.
That would leave the possibility of one or two cities north to it. If we go for 2 cities, we can stick to my plan which will gain us 2 ports with mediocre prospects. A landlocked city 2 W of the northern wheat would have 4 FP, wheat, an oasis and 2 desert hills. We could irrigate everything and run 6 merchant specialists there and switch to the hills if we need production. Imo we should build a city there, such holes are just an invitation for trouble...

The question is if we can gain more with 2 ports + cottages: 1 city more to upkeep, longer time until they are developed but more gain from traderoutes.

Edit: Batt hasn´t commented yet, so I will play tomorrow afternoon
 
I had no possibility to look at the save now, but as no military campaign seems to conme up we cen discuss the GA/techstrat a bit more detailed. 2.nd GA ro further increase our overall lead seems to be ok. Free religion will be needed when AI is advanced enough in tech to trade for the Eco path. For now I stick to your plan; Building the marble city seems to be the next logical step, as for 1 or 2 cities more on this continent we will have to crunch down Maintainance costs vs. cottages vs. sea tiles and trade routes, this with banks/grocers/custom office

1 cottage/village is about 3 base commerce more than a sea tile, trade routes should bring around 15-20 base commerce thus making up for around 5 cottage tiles. 1 city more costs us I estimate about 6-7 gpt at the moment so its a close call and depends mainly on the overall number (1vs2cities) of worked cottages and the number of foreign trade routes which will appear.

As this is guess work we should harden the numbers and decide then if 1 or 2 cities more is ok.
THe merchant bringing 3000 cash sounds ok, this can bring us around 20 rounds 100% tech slider so my vote is to ship the next apeparing (and not GA needed) merchant on a trade route
 
I forgot to mention the wheat, the marble city will be a nice specialist site (even better with Rep.), coastal to pay for the maintenance and helping us to get the additional GA (Taj Mahal), so I would say go for it ASAP.
For the rest of the landmass, an updated dotmap is necessary so that we don't get confused. I will have a look at your original one tonight and post my thoughts.
 
We could go with my original flood-plain/cottage city (blue), but first we settle red and
get he marble up immediately. Red can support 6 specialists later, not bad.

Yellow are filler cities to grab "our" island, only mediocre cities but with harbours
and the foreign trade routes they should be ok and the food ensures their growth.
(northern dot was suggested in MrB's original map, southern is moved to coast and has lowest priority)

MrB_013.jpg
 
the dotmap looks fine: 4 new harbors should give us enough trade route income to make up for additoinal maintainance; how do we connect the marble? is harbor fast enoough or are we putting an effort in roading the continent now and postpone jungle clearing in Gazianten a bit?
 
That would be 4 new cities. Do these harbour cties really pay off that soon? I guess they only need granaries, $$ multiplyier buildings, lighthouses harbours and custom houses later; happiness and health won´t be a big issue for cities probably stuck around the mid 10s. I take it you want to cottage them, or are irrigations + merchants better?

Edit: don´t forget there is still one island city left on the western island.
Edit2: Imagine we would be financial with all those coasttiles...
 
I would only settle red and blue for now as maintenance will already hurt us and they are the only productive ones (blue cottaged and red farmed)
The 2 yellow as filler later when we can afford it, perhaps never.
If the AI really goes for this desert spots, why not? They gain nothing and cripple their economy with colony and distance maintenance.
In Free Religion we can maintain good relations and if we want to take them later we can do so at our leisure.

Batter, I think you are mixing up games. This is not Civ3 where you need a harbour for connections you only need the techs (sailing for coast, astronomy for ozean)

On a side note, the mathematical dilettantes at Firaxis really screwed BTS.
I have an emperor game where I'm currently in 1975 AD and I have 200% inflation :aargh: all costs I have are tripled :(
In the original game I had like 70% at that time.
After some searching I found the maitenance-inflation formula, they not only increased the numbers but also added a quadratic term (in the original version inflation rose to 100% until the end of the game 2050AD, now the final number is something like 330% on levels Monarch and higher, 290% at Prince)
This really spoils all the fun of the game. Maybe I will wait for the patch (they announced something on this) and if all fails I might as well play the original version or Warlords)
I calculated the numbers for our current game (if you are interested I could give you the formula), in just 100 turns more we will be at 97% :(
 
Hmm... I thought about it and I think we should start with irrigations to speed up growth and to work 1-2 of those plains/desert hills until the majority of the buildings are built. Another thing we should not forget is to build the confician buildings for some extra $.
I would after red build blue, then the northern yellow one. The southern yellow city I see more as optional at the moment.

Edit: Xpost with Belisar.

Yup. we wait for the patch after we finish this one. I had some test baloons for our next project (Hannibal, small Pangea) and must say there is lots of action. Also the discussion on when taking on whom will be great fun, especially if you have some nasty opponents like Ragnar or good old Monty. We might even try free market + corporation strategies should our domination win take that long.
 
I was just stuck for 45 min in Vienna´s Friday afternoon traffic jam. I do not have the time to play with adequate patience now before the next appointment, so I delay my turns to tomorrow around noon.

Nice weekend and Cheers,
Mr. Blonde
 
So I go with our consensus on strategy: GA now with civic switch, see to build the southern city and hook on the marble, research towards constitution. Trades for guilds-banking branch if possible
325…nothing happens
326…The Khmer guy builds University of Sangakore?? I checked with negotiations and it seems the tech overview is not correct as he has paper but this sheet suggests otherwise. Great…:mad: Anyway I start the GA, reset Dheli, switch civics and set up for nationalism.
I check the trades: We could have Literature, Drama and Theology. Brennus and Ramses have guilds and Engineering but won´t trade. I make open borders with Brennus to improve relations step by step
328: I refuse to gift Optics to Isabella
329: No, S-man, you don´t get education…
332: Nationalism is here and I start the Taj Mahal. Marble city is founded soon.
336: S-man would research Philo next turn, also Optics is out on this continent. I decide therefore to trade Philo and Optics for guilds. Brennus would have taken Education which was too much. Education is still not out.
337: Constitution is in and I immediately revolt to it. I don´t think we should wait for it, because it boosts our research output significantly.
338: Government re-established and I stop playing. Research/trades should be discussed now. Happiness is not a problem, maybe the most northern city on the big island should switch to Hammam instead of Lighthouse. Spies are built and can be shipped, preferably to Ramses. We should target his wonderspam city for revolts, imo.

Ramses: doesn´t trade with us. He and Brennus have Banking which is now 3 turns for us. Brennus would give us Lit and drama for Philo; Banking costs us Philo and Education, not worth it as he will trade with his Buddy Ramses. S-man is up Lit, Drama and Theology and would trade, but we don´t want to give away Nationalism, Astronomy, Education or Printing press for it, so no trade with him.
The other continent: with Paper and Guilds we could get Engineering from Gilgamesh.
Isabella won´t trade with us. Seems we refused tribute one time too often. I say we trade for Engineering and maybe give Philo to Brennus for Lit and Drama.

Research: Banking is just 3 turns, and we can get Economics in another 5 (Great Merchant…). Gunpowder 4 and then Chemistry 8 turns. Democracy comes in 10 turns. We don´t want Scientific Method to soon as it obsoletes monasteries. I say after economy we go for chemistry for our ships. Ramses is imo target no.1 and we should take on this continent

One thing I noticed is that S-man has like 4 cities without religion. And also, we get 1 gold per conf. city, it´s not the religious buildings that count. We must discuss long term strategy at this point. We can make Brennus our long term trading partner for techs he acquires from Ramses. Maybe we can convert S-man in the mid term and alienate Ramses from him. One thing I see at the moment is that our core cities are occupied with grocers and then banks. The Taj Mahal takes still some time, the marble is not online yet, one Galley is on the northern part of the island to collect 2 workers next round. Anyways: with Privateers and Spies we should soften up Ramses and S-man and then build up for war. I want to discuss this turning point now more in detail before we continue.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/49010/MrB4_338.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
I had a small look at the save and some things : We should have loaded a worker rigth from the beginning with the settler - now we need another 3 turns until he gets there and another 5 or so until the quarry is built, this can cost us 4-5 turns in building the Taj Mahal, which I hope not to losse. Its really annoying that the foreign advisor screen is not up to date and tells us that Ai is at the moment perehaps researching paper when he already builds the University-it must really have been frustrating close as I think he got paper definitely after us and we have the most production strong city, so it was the stone it seems that made the difference.

Long term considerations: I alos think that Ramses would be a nice opportunity; we somehow must bring S-man to our side in this campaign and then sack THebes which is nicely close (within one turn transportation distance) to our borders. Unfortunately the other continent is at the moment too far away to begin a campaign and sack in their holy city.

For really starting war we will definitely have to wait until both continents finally meet (man, are their sailboat captains all drunk or what ???); perehaps we can then even make a nice intercontinental war and take our *ahem* small share of one of the two continents.

THe 3rd option would be a brutal approach of a great war in which we atack brennus forst, raze the AP and then march to take THebes and hope, that our military will be too modern for them to take out - but this is clearly a case for cavs and grenadiers.

I am also of the opinion that we should take our advantage of our tech lead and begin with annnoying the AI with spamming privateers

I will play tomorrow and wait for input from our most experienced general ;)
 
It seems we have a nice tech lead and therefore the Taj is in the bag, although I too would have taken both
galleys with settler, worker and 2 units for the marble site.
Rep really helps us in the long run with 3 cities (Bursa, Delhi and red dot) running lots of specialists.

I remember some trouble with the foreign advisor as well, I usually check the old fashioned way in diplo.
The UoS by S-man is not good. Due to his overexpansion he seems to be the slowest researcher on that continent,
but togther with Ramses this is our number 1 competition in the long run.
The other continent (only 2 AIs) is teching slower. I would ignore Izzy, she always demands things and civic/religion
switches and we just tell her where she can go. If she declares at some point this would actually be no problem,
we can ruin her with the SoZ-WW.

Ramses doesn't trade cause he had contact with Gandhi when we eliminated him. He seems to be the fastest researcher
so we don't want to feed him anyway. It's still amazing that Brennus with his (more or less) 3CC is competetive,
his shrine is clearly the reason.

Banking in just 3 turns on Epic, seems like a self research for me. We must be very cautious by giving
techs to the Brennus/Ramses/S-man block (this is my bad, you suggested playing without tech brokering, should have gone with it)
Next goal is clearly Chemistry (for privateers) and Eco (for Free Market and the free GM)
Side note: Islam still not out?

Still some time before the AI gets Astronomy but we need to build our advanced military in time.
I will look at the save tonight and post some thoughts on strategy.
 
Ramses is researching Divine right now. S-man is really behind in tech compared to Ramses and Brennus, as well is Izzy compared to Gilgamesh. Engineering I would trade for as we need it for Chemistry. We can only hope they make contact soon and start to build up for warfare against each other. We should not be afraid that they trade with each other as Izzy and Gilgamesh are usually a bit xenophobe. I think we could try to convert S-man (each city brings in $$), as it seems the AI is crappy in actively spreading its religion. So techwise we go for economy for free market and the merchant and then to chemistry.

I say we found the blue and the northern yellow spot and the missing island-city (should have low upkeep as it´s close to our capital), our eco is OK (60% with around 0 gain/loss) and should improve with grocers, banks and custom houses in our $ cities. My suggestion is to start pillaging Ramses and S-man with Privateers and cripple Ramses with spy-action. With constitution in, a couple of productive cities could build jails to increase our spypoint output.

I missed to ship a worker with the settler, my bad :(
 
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