MRG's Random Game of Randomness

[Spoonwood]

Do you want war happiness also?

Or is that too much? Military alliances that then get canceled?

 

[MrRandomGuy]

Agree, don't ruin our rep. There's multiple ways things can go south. Ideally we want to have secure luxuries that the AI will be unable to take from us. Best way to think of it is "if any nation declares war on me, are my luxuries safe from cavalry after two turns?"

 

[Lanzelot]

We still had lots of workers and nothing useful to do, but as we are not far away from railways, I wanted to keep them. (There aren't many cities left to join anyway.)

Ok, I think with 18gpt from Byzantium, a few trebs disbanded and a few more taxmen, I should be able to get to 305gpt and then make another deal.
I have to say, this pillage-yourself-tactic is enormously powerful! You can get techs, lump sums, maps and WH for free, and it can be done several times a turn. That's more powerful than the Lord Emsworth Deals, which can be done only a few times per game. So I'm pretty sure, this is banned for the GOTM, at least it should be...

 

[Spoonwood]

We still had lots of workers and nothing useful to do, but as we are not far away from railways, I wanted to keep them. (There aren't many cities left to join anyway.)

Ok, I think with 18gpt from Byzantium, a few trebs disbanded and a few more taxmen, I should be able to get to 305gpt and then make another deal.
I have to say, this pillage-yourself-tactic is enormously powerful! You can get techs, lump sums, maps and WH for free, and it can be done several times a turn. That's more powerful than the Lord Emsworth Deals, which can be done only a few times per game. So I'm pretty sure, this is banned for the GOTM, at least it should be...

And military alliances. Which I guess isn't as powerful, but something I found convenient.

Getting war declarations reliably was quite useful according to Drazek's report for his top scoring game (he talks about many RoP rapes).

The disallowed section of the XOTM competitions reads:

"DISALLOWED
...
Deliberate destruction of trade routes
Deliberate action to break an existing trade route to cause the cancellation of a GPT deal without loss of reputation to the player, is banned as an unbalancing exploit"

They are legal for the Hall of Fame, and there's evidence of them getting used in some Deity and Sid games for spaceship and other victories, as well as reports by myself and Drazek's report above where we said we used them. Under the green exploits - allowed section, the HoF rules say:

"
GPT for Upfront (Civ/PtW/C3C)

Signing GPT for upfront compensation from the AI, and then using a declaration of war or disconnect of trade route to cancel the deal. Comes with a reputation hit in some cases, in others it is free."

Lord Emsworth agreements were banned, it seems, on the basis that they put free money into the economy.

 

[Lanzelot]

Spoiler Turnlog :

T198, cont.
So I buy the 18gpt from Byzantium for 374g, disband a few trebs, hire a few more taxmen and for 308gpt, they are finally

willing to sell Military Tradition. I also buy Magnetism and then our lump sum and Theodora's world map.
Democracy is too expensive, but we don't need it anyway.

Ok, I think, this is all we can currently get from Byzantium. I restore all the roads and renew the incense deal with Sumer (for Printing Press).

Upgrade 3 Muskets.
First part of the Armada sets sail to Byzamtium. (Second part will follow later with faster Galleons.)


T199, 840AD
Our colonists set food on the Portuguesan shore.

T200, 850AD
Korea starts Universal Suffrage, so they now have Steam and Industrialization besides Nationalism.
But they are still the only industrial nation.

Found New Karakorum on the furs tile. They are immediately connected, since we can use the Harbor in Sao Mamede. Start a Temple for some culture. We should rush that as soon as we have some cash to spare. (For now we don't as I have just upgraded 4 Galleons.)

The Byzantines have now finished Theory of Gravity and have entered the industrial age. Their best unit is still shown as the Crusader. Don't know whether that means that they did not get Nationalism as freebee? Otherwise our Armada, which is currently on its way, will be "too late" once again...

Short summary:
As the turn log is now scattered over three posts, here a short summary. These were 10 quite eventful turns:

• We learned 12 new techs, some of them useless, but nevertheless, we can always use them to buy incense from Sumer: Chemistry, Education, Printing Press, Music Theory, Banking, Astronomy, Physics, Metallurgy, Economics, Navigation, Magnetism and Military Tradition.
• Bought incense from Sumer and connected our own furs.
• Stole saltpeter from Korea and got our first Muskets. (Unfortunately not a Musket Army...)
• Armada is on its way to Byzantium, as are our 4 Armies. Probably ready to attack in at most 5 turns.
• Pentagon finished and 12 turns left for Military Academy.
• World map is about complete.

Handover notes:

• Make sure to give Kazan back its food tiles, once the University finishes next turn.
• Make sure to "buy" Theory of Gravity from Byzantium like I bought the other techs. The necessary Longbows and workers are still in place around KK. Then we can see, whether they got Nationalism as their freebee. I doubt that we have enough gpt to buy iron + their first IA tech via that exploit, but nevertheless, give it a try. Don't forget to buy incense from Sumer again, after our trade network is restored...
  
• Once the first few Universities are finished, we can probably fire up our own research again (which had been set to 0% for my entire turn set, except for the first turn to finish Chemistry...)
• Once Darhan no longer needs that one shield from the mined grassland for finishing the University in the same amount of turns, we can "shift" that grassland all the way to Ulaanbaatar, which can then grow to 11.
• Once the Courthouse in Batshireet finishes, the happiness will probably suffice for another worker join (or two) from Choy.
• Don't mess up our worker factory in Choy! Needs readjustment every two turns. (It was messed up and building a lib, when I got it, and it is still not operating at its perfect size, but I didn't bother.)
  Once our rail network is about complete, we can turn it off and let Choy grow as well.
  
• Once we have a bit of culture in New Karakorum, start a Harbor there. It's better to have our own than to depend on the Portuguese one...
• Probably forgot a bunch of things, but it's too late now. When in doubt, just ask.

Plans/proposals for the near future:
Provided that Byzantium didn't get Rifles this turn, it's all ready for war. We could think about an MPP with Korea to drag them into it as well (needs to be signed before the DoW, as otherwise they will probably no longer agree to it, or charge an arm and a leg...) and to secure our Korean border, which is kind of non-protected at the moment... (A handful of spears against a dozen of Cavs or more -- we can imagine how that would end...)
We'll have a decent number of Universities soon, our gpt deal with Portugal has 10 more turns to go, after that we'll have more gold for research, and if our war against Byzantium is successful, we'll have 4 total luxes. Then we can probably leave everyone behind in tech except for Korea. Cav Armies should be good for conquering Egypt, Spain and Sumer, maybe America too, they are already on the ropes (lost two towns recently to Byzantium). Perhaps that's already enough for a domination win, and we never need to take on the super power Korea?!

 

[MrRandomGuy]

@Spoonwood Want to take on a turnset since the other two are temporarily away?

 

[Spoonwood]

@Spoonwood Want to take on a turnset since the other two are temporarily away?

Sure. But does that mean that I'm up? Or am I 'on deck'?

 

[Spoonwood]

Are you guys in favor of gifting up Sumeria to try and get their free tech? Or against it?

 

[Spoonwood]

Spain has two horse sources in it's borders, and a third that they have settled near.

Egypt has only one horse source.

The Byzantines have two horse sources, but one appears to be unhooked.

The Sumerians only have one horse source.

Since Spain is the only civilization with extra horses at present it seems (unless I've missed something), and Korea doesn't have horses while having cavalry, this suggests that Spain is exporting horses to Korea.

 

[Spoonwood]

Seriously Cleopatra, fire your city founder:

I think I get it. Elephantine had to get founded where it is for the saltpeter, and that meant that they couldn't found Abydos in a position to get the grassland cow without tile overlap, and the AI is programmed to try to avoid tile overlap from cities. Maybe that's not it though.

 

[MrRandomGuy]

Up. I'll play after you.

 

[Spoonwood]

Ok, I got it. In case you didn't see, the site will be down in a few hours, they're changing things.

 

[Spoonwood]

Before I play though...

Are you guys in favor of gifting up Sumeria to try and get their free tech? Or against it?

I'm in favor of it. But, if you guys are against it, I won't do it, since gifting them will change things.

Edit: What the... I'm seeing Constantinople is NOT on a coast.

Anyone seen an AI capital that got planted inland before? Only thing that makes sense to me is that someone attacked them early, and they lost their original capital. And it got razed? Or did the original Byzantines get destroyed and AI respawn is on?

 

[MrRandomGuy]

I'm in favor of attempting to get a tech and helping a scientific rival out. It's a pretty good strategy to use - if it works lol.

A few games I've come across I've had seafaring civs not start directly by the ocean. It does happen, though not often.

 

[Spoonwood]

My plan is to go after the horses at Naissus and attack there first. The Byzantines have knights. We don't want to have to fight rifles at Naissus or only fight one there. We can use the hill there for defense and work our way out from there. Egypt is another possibility for gettting horses, but they have saltpeter, while The Byzantines do not.

 

[Spoonwood]

Spoiler :

T200 - 850 AD Change Ondorhaan from a library to a courthouse.
Change Atlay from explorer to a trebuchet. Some trebuchets near our capital might be helpful for AI landings near there. Wake fortified longbow army and move it to the forest. Heraclea is defened by a pikeman.


T201 - 860 AD Sumerians want an audience. O. K. They want to exchange Territory Maps. We're polite with them, so take that off the table. And exit the trading table. Kazan university -> musketman. Choy worker -> worker with tile swap. Finish chop of forest, so that Kazan doesn't starve. Shuffle workers around preparing to pillage. Make a lot of tax collectors and find that iron and Theory of Gravity is purchasble from the Byzantines. 377 gpt suffices. First make embassy with Theodora though. Nice, it's only 51 gold.

Not even a temple? I guess they declared war early and didn't get around to building infrastructure.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/data/assets/style_properties/background-cfc.jpg

Dang...

Oh well...

Korea doesn't have Medicine though. So, we'll see what happens in a turn or three.
Mine near Ta-tu with three workers. Another shield might just shave a turn off the military academy. But, need it done in 2 turns not 3. Pillage out the capital after shuffling workers. Re-road a single bonus grassland on the river. Oops, I didn't put the archer on that spot. I always only pillage a single road tile with multiple units on that square. Think about reloading and starting over. Nah, Korea doesn't have Medicine, this will be sub-optimal, but whatever.

Losing 6 gpt this turn. Oh well. Move more trebuchets around. Irrigate out near Chong'fu. Move longbowman into Karakorum, so two pillages can happen on the next turn. Leave three workers in place. Irrigate so Kazan doesn't lose it's food, and start mining pillaged squares.

Taegwon needs changed next turn.

T 202 - 870 AD Privateer attacks caravel and wounds caravel to 2/4, 1-0. Mandalgovi university -> musketman. Chong'fu harbor -> trebuchet. Bats courthouse -> marketplace. Choyr, worker -> worker. Sumeria has Nationalism, and the Byzantines have Medicine now. Also, Egypt and America have Theory of Gravity. Gilgamesh has no gold. He must have spent that 308 gpt in trading with Korea. Pillage out and reroad. More tax collectors:

Korea both Communism and Fascism! Change Baya from courthouse to worker.

And stop here...

 

[Spoonwood]

O. K., we have Nationalism, and Medicine. We don't have Steam Power. I decided not to change Lanzelot's university builds to banks. We can start research on Steam Power, with the rates suggesting 16-20 turns, and possibly quicker as universities complete. Or, we might try to get Korea to declare on one of their rivals, and obtain Steam Power with a liberated luxury, once we might force Korea into a war with Egypt (or the obviating MPP between Korea and Egypt ends). So, I'm guessing that I should just start research on Steam Power now? Oh... the other AIs will got for the government technologies first, so researching Steam Power could be quicker (unless we got a lot of gpt from Korea).

The Byzantines have Nationalism. But, I think I can gather an attack on Naissus, before they get rifles in there. If not, maybe I can get to Egypt before they get Nationalism. If I'm lucky the Byzantines iron is still available, and we can get them to declare on us.

I wish I had gotten the pillaging exactly correct on my first turn, but I can't go back in time. Or does anyone want me to reload?


Edit: I'm not sure that my ideas about declaring war on Egypt and signing Korea into a military alliance against them. I think now I recall that an AI won't sign a military alliance against some other AI that they have a mutual protection pact with. But, some cash will still be desired quickly for rushing some infrastructure in New Karkorum and the replacement for Naisuss (if Naissus flipped, we'd have to kill a rifleman... though maybe we have enough trebuchets on the way for that to seem like a decent battle).

 

[Lanzelot]

One turn of gpt isn't that big of a deal, we have done worse and not reloaded...

As the Armies are assembled near Heraclea, I wanted to start the war there and move towards Naissus. But with them having Nationalism, we might need to hurry, so could be it's better to start the invasion at Naissus and thne keep going until we hit Rifles. But how do you want to get the Armies to Naissus without a RoP rape? Or attack Naissus only with what we have in our ships and join the Armies with the rest of the troops later? But I'm pretty sure we need cover for the Armies, Crusaders might attack them?!

 

[Spoonwood]

But how do you want to get the Armies to Naissus without a RoP rape?

Renegotiate the peace treaty with iron getting bought in the peace treaty for gpt. Then with the disconnect of the trade route, Theodora's Byzantine men can't supply the iron. So, the Byzantines will declare war on us. I might only use the units from the ships for the first attack. I won't defend that spot, only the hill above it. I also think we're safer from a flip there if the Naissus gets replaced. But, capturing first will enable the settler to move into that spot.

Oh dang... crusaders. Yea, those armies might not be safe. I was thinking of signing a military alliance with Korea. We definitely can't afford them declaring on us, at least not without a few rifles I think.
Though, the crusaders might have already moved towards America.

 

[Lanzelot]

I decided not to change Lanzelot's university builds to banks. We can start research on Steam Power

I think that very soon the "pillage trade route" exploit can no longer be used for acquiring techs -- simply because we'll be ahead of the AIs... Our GA will soon start (remember to build a few Keshiks, once we have horses), and then we can out-research even Korea...

I was thinking of signing a military alliance with Korea. We definitely can't afford them declaring on us, at least not without a few rifles I think.

A Military Alliance will cost an arm and a leg, but a Mutual Protection Pact was quite cheap, like 50g lump sum. Price will definitely go up, once we are at war, so better sign that MPP one turn before Byzantium declares on us. Once the area around Naissus is ours, Byzantium will definitely counter-attack on our territory, and then Korea is in the war...

I also think we're safer from a flip there if the Naissus gets replaced.

Exactly. That's why there is a settler in one of the ships.

BTW: If we fight against Byzantium, and then perhaps Egypt next, it should be safe to fill the Armies to size 4. What does everybody think?