MRG's Random Game of Randomness

[MrRandomGuy]

I saw the options of what to do with tech after gunpowder yes. I didn't realize we had decided to buy chemistry. Once I saw that chemistry would be researched relatively quickly I thought it would be easier to just research it ourselves then buy Metal/MT. But you're right I should have asked on that one.

Shoot, I missed that we need a musket army. I thought that having another LBM army would allow us to be more aggressive with the armies we have. With an extra army, the Pentagon would not be a compromised build if one of them died.

 

[Spoonwood]

You did not really build a settler in a fully productive size 12 city??

As different as it sounds, I remember Doc T arguing that such size 12 settler skimming would make sense in the Sid Vicious and the Magnificent Seven Plus One game. It has the advantage of fully using food to potentially expand population. But, of course, it does mean less production and commerce in the short term. Possibly a very good idea if you have a small empire (he had another thread talking about playing with just one city early on with 10 shields early to spawn an early leader... so probably tended to have smaller empires early).

I have the very bad feeling, we are getting too late once again. You should have attacked at the beginning of your turnset. Everything was ready, just make peace with Portugal and go for the important targets. This insignificant war with Portugal side-tracked us for another 10 turns, Korea used these 10 turns well and now we are facing rifles on hills.

I thought I checked yesterday and though I saw that there were 10 turns left on the peace deal before MRG started his turn set. He also did clearly announce that he wasn't going to attack on his turnset.

Checking, yea, 10 turns left on the peace deal with Korea in the 650 AD save. Declaring on Korea during his turnset would have meant a wrecked reputation. Not completely gone, but still bad.

That's it. Game over, I would say.

No, your reputation is intact. From the most recent save, 1 gpt for 16 gold from Wang, and 20 gold from Wang for 1 gpt. Both of which are pretty good. It's possible to obtain the entire tech tree, all of the AIs gold with luxuries and using gpt for luxuries and resources and pillaging. There are plenty of extra luxuries and resources for that on this map. And that includes from Korea, since Wang is supplying luxuries to other AIs AND luckily he's your neighbor. So, with a trade route established to his capital, it's possible to declare war on some AI that Wang is trading something to. Then ally Wang against that AI. One can exchange gold for AIs gold per turn. Then one can trade for his luxury and gold and/or tech. Then pillage the trade route to your capital (it's only border squares or the eight squares directly adjacent to your capital or roads to a harbor city... any irrigation or mines could get rebuilt).

Finally, when ready for a war, one can renegotiate a peace trade with a luxury or resource thrown in. Then when the trade route is pillaged, the AIs will declare war on you and take the reputation hit for cancelling any ongoing military alliances.

Spain has extra horses getting supply to someone also.

And I don't understand, why you have been researching Chemistry, when the plan was to get these techs for free from Korea before attacking? Do you read our comments?

I thought you proposed this and there wasn't agreement on this. But seriously, it's FAR better that MRG didn't do this. If you use gpt to get techs and then declare on an AI, your reputation gets bad. Instead of the exchange rate being 1 gpt from you for 16 or 18 gold of the AIs, it's something like 1 gpt for 4 gold or 3 gold with a single use of that. Or, such exchanges are completely out, and only hard goods can get traded.

Also, he's the host of the host of this game. If there's any doubt about what to do in a game, and it's his turn especially, he has the final say.

Super hard no the more I think about it. The ability to get all sorts of stuff from the AIs using gpt becomes severely compromised or impossible with a ruined reputation. You might not like the idea of using gpt and pillaging to get gold, technologies, gpt, and have the AIs to declare on you. But, which do you dislike more... using such a tactic or losing?

Ran another quick test: LB Armies just die against Rifles on hills.

Were the rifles redlined first or full health?

Buy any tech we get for gpt from Byzantium and then declare.

Ruined reputation. Do NOT do this.

We could also sail over to Spain, once we have Magnetism...
Or to Sumer, who are even more backwards, but only have one luxury.

I thought about capturing that city, but no idea how many conquistadores are in range of Toledo. Holding Toledo for a single turn could be rough.

My plan would involve setting up disconnect-reconnect with trade route pillaging and allying Korea against one of their current traders. Also, allying Spain against someone they are trading horses to once there's some decent gpt flowing from Korea. Armies get free pillaging. I'd probably first sign an RoP with Korea and road up their territory until the luxuries were bright instead of dark. That would allow sometime to build up some gold to get some gpt flowing from Korea. Once there's more gpt flowing from Korea, then declare on one of Spain's trade partners and ally Spain against them. If that doesn't liberate the horses, then do it with another trading partner. Ally Korea against anyone that you are currently at war with for a while. Calvary coming at you... yikes, until you get some rifles up.

Trading Chemistry for Education I definitely agree on.

Maybe even sell off the libraries. Yea, that could help get more gpt flowing from Korea more quickly.

Maybe even banks. Though, those take a fair number of turns to build. Still, if someone would ruin the trading reputation by accident or not understanding the mechanics, those could help with the rate for attempted steals. Just, no stealing from Korea.

 

[Lanzelot]

That's it. Game over, I would say.

No, your reputation is intact.

I know... (That's why I already proposed some thoughts about an alternative plan.) But I like to be "dramatic"...

Regarding the idea of voluntarily breaking our trade reputation: that was meant as a desperate measure from a time when I thought Cavalry was sufficient for winning this game. Get to Military Tradition quickly, saving a lot of gold and time, and then we don't need our trade rep anymore...

However, perhaps we can still get a few techs without breaking our reputation: Byzantium has a few units in our territory... We could buy whatever we can get for our gpt, then make them furious and ask them to leave or declare...
Also Portugal is now willing to pay for peace, so we could probably get a cheap tech from them in a peace deal. That would be 5 techs for almost free. And if we are willing to break our reputation, we could probably get 2-3 more by re-using our gpt from Byzantium to buy some more and then declare ourselves. So within one turn we could be industrial for almost nothing, and as everyone except Korea is still medieval, that should be enough to win, even with a broken reputation. We could then invade let's say Sumer (probably easier than Egypt), get the resources we need, and we are back in the game.

 

[Spoonwood]

Also Portugal is now willing to pay for peace, so we could probably get a cheap tech from them in a peace deal.

No city captures from them. A lot of unit kills you say? But these are medieval technologies. Does extortion value increase over time? I will guess that proportionally speaking it doesn't increase as fast as tech cost. Cheaper, I suppose. But, not necessarily all that inexpensive.

I checked in the latest public save and it was 32 gpt and 13 gold for Education from Portugal. I guess Lanzelot has seen it to cost more for Banking, Astronomy, Physics, or Metallurgy from Portugal.

Edit: The idea of invading Sumeria struck me as kind of interesting. They would throw everything at your landing party. Probably some knights or medieval infantries coming at you, but lots of mountain spots apparently to land on. You are average to them. That does sound like a kind of fun war, that doesn't necessarily feel like a sure thing initially. Probably doable, but not to the point of predictability, unless you've done that a lot, I suppose.

BUT, they are scientific. Their culture is better than yours, but not as good for the level as I've seen them in a few 100k games on lower levels from my read. Getting Steam Power earlier would be more advantageous earlier would be more advantageous. It's probably good odds that a successful invasion of Sumeria would be a good bet on having a coal source.

There's a penalty for war weariness from being inside of AI territory.

Add 1 wwp if you have units in enemys territory when in war.

Bigger though, could easily be this:

Add 2 wwp when a unit with defence value is attacked.

And of course, having a city captured is more than halfway to a having a war weariness level increase.

Really want a musket army for that. Sumeria will throw horseman or knights at you probably fairly fast, unless I guess you land in a corner. Good landing spots can also be blocked, though not necessarily in this situation. And armies can even get attacked by very weak units if there's enough units such that some part of the code enables that to happen as I ending rereading one of my old notes a while back about having a healthy enough cavalry army attacked by a spear if I understood my note correctly. Could be unlikely in this sort of situation.

They could also have something available for trading later.

 

[choxorn]

However, perhaps we can still get a few techs without breaking our reputation: Byzantium has a few units in our territory... We could buy whatever we can get for our gpt, then make them furious and ask them to leave or declare...

I gotta say I like that idea. Certainly more than I like the idea of fighting Korea when they have a crapton of gold, Rifles, and the tech lead. They seem firmly in the position of "strongest AI" right now.

 

[Lanzelot]

No city captures from them. A lot of unit kills you say? But these are medieval technologies. Does extortion value increase over time? I will guess that proportionally speaking it doesn't increase as fast as tech cost. Cheaper, I suppose. But, not necessarily all that inexpensive.

I checked the prices for Education (not that we want to buy it, as we can get it from Sumer, but just as an illustration):
Byzantium wants 59gpt. (Total: 1180g)
Portugal is willing to give it for 33gpt in a peace deal. (Total: 660g)
That's quite a discount. The current value is 1069b.

 

[Lanzelot]

Certainly more than I like the idea of fighting Korea when they have a crapton of gold, Rifles, and the tech lead.

Don't forget their Cavalry... They would slice through our spears and longbows like the proverbial hot knife through butter...

 

[Spoonwood]

Don't forget their Cavalry

Unless you did a city investigation, a little more careful here. Spain likely is exporting horses, since I think them losing their extra horses unlikely for all the save implies. You have embassies with both America and Korea, so you can tell that they are trading something with Korea and America. It doesn't tell you who is exporting to whom. It doesn't tell you what they are trading. Spain could be trading with other AIs also.

I checked for a previous save and figured out where Spain had horses going at that time. But, even I'm not sure where those horses go now, IF they still are on Spain's trade network. I also don't know where those horses are going now, since I don't know when the deal expired, and what happens when a deal expires between AIs. I would assume that it's usually renewed, but maybe not. I wouldn't say that Korea does or does not have the ability to make cavalry right now, based on what I know, and I don't say that just as a way of not spoiling anything.

Since you don't know where those horses were going, I think you have even less reason to conclude that they have the ability to make cavalry right now.

But, the trade routes imply that they could have such.

And someone else either does have such an ability or soon will have such an ability, even if Korea has none.

 

[MrRandomGuy]

There's a time and place to break our reputation. We are doing well, but are still behind. The game is not a guaranteed win by domination yet. We shouldn't ruin our rep before destroying - or crippling - one of our opponents. A war might take longer than anticipated and we may need to sue for peace so that we can reorganize and regroup our units.

The time to break rep would be when one or two civilizations are destroyed or crippled. We only break rep when we have everything we need for victory or are close enough to what we need. That means having luxuries within our borders and not relying on the AI to supply them. It means having a strong military compared to all the civilizations we know. It means securing strategic resources. I'm open to the idea of breaking our rep. I've done it plenty of times in my games. However, now is not the time to do this. We shouldn't do this until we've at least secured a luxury or two and the salt tile.

 

[MrRandomGuy]

Thinking more about this and note in the turn log that Egypt and Korea have signed a trade embargo against us. We can easily bypass this by getting Korea to declare on Egypt (or vice versa) but only with our reputation intact. Korea has already signed MPP's and probably would get other AI's to sign an embargo against us. Those embargos are a small thorn and normally don't affect things that much, but in a game like this where there's zero luxuries within our borders a trade embargo against us could make a huge difference. I've had MA's where the AI sues for peace then turns aroun

It also doesn't matter if we manage to get someone to sign an MA. Even without a ruined rep the AI's tend to make peace with each other without canceling the deal with you first. Whenever that happens to me and I still need those AI's to fight, I just give the nation I signed an MA with incentive to keep fighting. A technology, gpt, etc. With a ruined rep we can't do that. And with a ruined rep, the chances of someone suing for peace then turning around and declaring war on us is extremely high.

Nationalism changes the way the world works regarding war and can throw the world in total chaos. I've seen Egypt and Rome sign a MA against Greece and in the same IBT see Rome declare war on Egypt. Those weren't the exact AI nations because I can't remember specifically who it was, but you get the idea. Keep our reputation until we at least have lux/resources and a better army. It will help in the long run if the world becomes so chaotic that we need to exit our wars in order to rebuild and regroup units.

 

[choxorn]

IIRC, Trade Embargoes automatically end if you sign a peace treaty with the one of the civs embargoing you that you were at war with

 

[Lanzelot]

It is clear that breaking the trade rep is a desperate measure. I have done it in the past, when I had fallen behind and there was only the choice between playing such a dirty trick, catching up and putting the game back on track to victory, or falling even further behind and lose.
And I think we are currently in such a situation.

But you are right, we don't need to do it just yet. Let's say we plan on invading Sumer. This can be done with Astronomy, as there is a 4-tile crossing across the ocean, so caravels would suffice. We could trade for Education, get Astronomy for a good price in a peace deal with Portugal and then start our Invasion, while we keep researching a tech or two towards Military Tradition and Magnetism. (We only need to make sure to get MT one way or the other, before Ta-Tu overruns the 400 shields.)

BTW: I'm not sure, whether the "leave or declare" trick will work against Byzantium, because they only have ships in our territory. I did a few tests yesterday and never got an AI to declare on me, when they had ships in my waters. They just say "sure, we'll retreat our troops" -- and keep sailing right through my waters...

Another noteworthy point: there is an unclaimed furs resource very close to us on the Portuguese border. We have a spare settler and a ship at Taegwon, so could send a settler/spear pair over there. Getting there, however, would require Magnetism. (And peace with Portugal, if we want to hold that town.) Again we need to act quickly, before someone else settles there.

 

[Lanzelot]

BTW: breaking the trade rep only means, we won't be able to pay with gpt anymore. We can still trade luxes/resources, we can still pay with lump sums, we can still swap techs and maps and we can still extort things in peace deals, as far as I know.

 

[Spoonwood]

I did a few tests yesterday and never got an AI to declare on me, when they had ships in my waters.

I played from a previous save using the loan strategy and got a monopoly on Printing Press. And sold it. A turn or turn after making peace with the Byzantines, they were moving ships south, apparently towards barbarian ships. I checked, and had "leave or declare" available, and it worked.

But, those ships were dromons. Since they are unique units and have lethal bombardment, they could be different than most other ships easily.

Also, what was the relative strength of the AIs to you as indicated by the military advisor? I think I've had "average" work, but I feel surprised that it even worked when I saw it. What was their attitude towards you?

 

[Spoonwood]

Another noteworthy point: there is an unclaimed furs resource very close to us on the Portuguese border. We have a spare settler and a ship at Taegwon, so could send a settler/spear pair over there. Getting there, however, would require Magnetism. (And peace with Portugal, if we want to hold that town.) Again we need to act quickly, before someone else settles there.

I don't recall ever seeing an AI settle at CxC spacing from another AI. Do you?

We can easily bypass this by getting Korea to declare on Egypt (or vice versa) but only with our reputation intact.

The latest save has a peace treaty with Egypt with more than 15 turns left on it.

I have done it in the past, when I had fallen behind and there was only the choice between playing such a dirty trick, catching up and putting the game back on track to victory, or falling even further behind and lose.
And I think we are currently in such a situation.

Maybe there's another choice here.

1. Wait until the peace treaty with Egypt expires. At least if Korea still has the world's gold reserves, and it appears likely that they will.

2. Declare war on Egypt.

3. Sign a military alliance with Korea against Egypt, ending the trade embargo.

4. Declare war on on one of Korea's trading partners.

5. Sign another military alliance with Korea against that trading partner.

6. Pay gpt for luxury + tech, or luxury + gold, luxury + map, etc. from Korea.

7. Pillage out the last road surrounding your capital.

8. Rebuild the road preferably on the same turn and reacquire the luxury or resource from Korea, so that such can get done again on the next turn or in a few turns.

The game is not lost if Korea gets to infantry in those 18 turns, if you can get enough gold from Korea, and gpt flowing to you. You just build up a good amount of artillery proper and cavalry. With less gpt from other AIs flowing to Korea, other AIs might still getting more substantial amounts of gold or gold per turn. Also, if you have some infantry, the AIs conquering you becomes more difficult for them.

Also, the game isn't lost if you can get to the modern era and then win a diplomatic victory, is it?

 

[Lanzelot]

How the "pillage trade route" scheme works, I understand. I haven't used it yet, though, as I can't bring myself to destroying all the tiles around my capital... Would need quite a lot of workers to repair that damage quick enough...

One more point to consider: when our Pentagon finishes, don't fill our Armies to size 4 yet. Depending on what we want to do next (invade Spain or Sumer or Byzantium...) we may need to be able to ship those Armies. A size 3 Army can still be shipped via Galleon, which is only 2-3 techs away, but for size 4 Armies, we would need Transports, which come only at the end of the industrial age, and that is still ages away...

 

[Spoonwood]

How the "pillage trade route" scheme works, I understand. I haven't used it yet, though, as I can't bring myself to destroying all the tiles around my capital... Would need quite a lot of workers to repair that damage quick enough

There's 2 cities using those squares. It's 6 less shields for Karakorum, and 2 less food and one less shield for Kazan. 17 shields instead of 18 shields is no change on building a longbowman, though 1 turn difference on a keshik, but no turn difference on a cavalry. 6 less shields for Karakorum is 17 shields instead of 23 shields. 1 less turn on a cavalry. But, you will have more capital. The possibility of short-rushing opens up.

18 shields is 5 turns on a cavalry. 17 shields into the box on turn one, followed by short-rushing a 60 shield granary, and swapping to a cavalry is 4 total turns on a cavalry.

23 shields is 4 turns on a cavalry. 23 shields into the box on turn one, followed by short-rushing a 60 shield temple (or musketman), then followed by 17 shields is 4 turns on a cavalry. With only 3 mines rebuilt, then it's only 3 turns on a cavalry.

So, the damage doesn't seem need repaired so quickly. You do though probably want enough workers to maintain the trade route. Doing such my experience suggests that 6 is the minimum, and I've found need to have 9 in some cases when signing military alliances, before Replacaeable Parts, so that gets better.

Also, the above doesn't consider when you learn Nationalism. If you're ready to mobilize, then a 17 shield capital using 12 tiles produces 30 shields per turn! That's one turn to get shields into a box, short-rush a granary, and then complete a cavalry on the next turn for 2 turn cavalry! Even if you don't short-rush, mobilization boosting 17 shields per turn to 30 shields per turn is still 3 turn cavalry in any capital. And well, you'd repair the mines sometime.

I think some of the shields from mobilization becomes corrupt. 17 shields in Kazan might not become 30 shields, but only 27 shields, I don't know the exact numbers. Still, it's almost surely more than 20 shields per turn. And short-rushing a granary would be 2 turn cavalry. And with no short-rushing it's still 4 turn cavalry.

Or maybe you would buy some factories at some point and mobilize later and just forget short-rushing. With mobilization after factories having completed, I'm not so sure how much of a loss some shields now would be for the bigger production opportunity opening up early. Or maybe coal plants? I don't know the numbers of whether both factories and coal plants would be worth it with mobilization.

Also, just in case you're extra worried, which I kind of doubt, yeah, you would have commerce lost. But, I've played a few times at Demi-God selling technology in this era. I don't recall exactly, but I wouldn't be surprised if Korea is making 200-300 gold per turn, if not 500 gpt even. 16 less commerce per turn (8 tiles x 2 less commerce), isn't even close to that. Repairing any road damage only needs one tile, unless you need/want seriously to start doing your own research.

 

[Spoonwood]

Wait... oops. Kazan would drop from size 12 to size 11 (or it would swap tiles with some other city). So, 17 shields would become 16 shields, and mobilization would add 12 instead of 13 extra pre-corrupted shields for a military unit with an attack and defense power (artillery type units, it seems, don't get the mobilization bonus... at least I've seen that trebuchets don't). It's still probably over 20 shields per turn that aren't corrupted. A factory boosts to 30 shields, dropping any 4 turn cavalry build to 3 turns without any shortrushing.

Also, the civilopedia says that you can build military city improvements with a mobilized economy, so you can build the Military Academy once mobilized? Or is that bugged?

 

[choxorn]

Sorry, gonna have to ask for a skip- a neck issue I've spent the last few days ranting about here doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and with a busy couple of weeks for me ahead, I'm not sure when exactly I'll have the time and focus to be able to do this.

 

[tjs282]

Guess I'd better also put in for a skip, since we're heading off on vacation this Friday, and will be gone for 2 weeks. I will have my phone, but no internet-capable comp.