MrRandomGuy
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2013
- Messages
- 353
Why wouldn't we fill our armies to size 4 after they land?
MRG's Random Game of Randomness
- Thread starter MrRandomGuy
- Start date
This exploit can really be used for everything, even a RoP rape that doesn't hurt our reputation and gives WH on top...
Crosspost with mine above. Yes, I also think we can now fill the Armies. They will not need to be transported by ship for quite a while. (BTW: they will not land: they marched to Byzantium by foot, scouting the Korean and American territory on the way...)
We're purchasing a luxury from Sumeria. Sumeria bought Nationalism from someone. If Sumeria goes to war with Korea, and then the MPP drags us into a war against Sumeria, I think we would be responsible for failing to pay gpt (I think declarations of war make you the penalized party, always).
A 4 unit longbowman, or 3 unit longbowman + 1 cavalry army, won't be able to make it to the city with the military academy by ship. Though, maybe walking to that city will be quicker. A few 4 cavalry armies might be alright. But, 3 cavalry armies work as simpler, and with the plan of an assault on Sumeria sometime, more 3 cavalry armies than 4 cavalry armies sounds better to me. So, I'm in favor of 3 cavalry armies more so than 4 cavalry armies.
Yes to the 3-Cav Armies. But the LB Armies will be obsolete by the time we attack Sumer. (I think, Egypt will be first.) So make them 4. Against Pikes they have excellent chances then, perhaps even against Rifles on flatland. (4-LB Army has attack value of 8.)
You mean for disbanding? If the wars vs. Byzantium and Egypt go well, we will always have enough towns and won't run into the 4-town-limit, will we? Just keep the LB-Armies in action until they die... (Or they can return via railway sooner or later.)
Yes, for disbanding to hurry an army to get loaded with cavalry. We might not run into the 4 town limit, yes.
So, the trade embargo against us by Korea and Egypt ended. Korea has three trading partners. Portugal, Spain, and Sumeria:
We still have turns left on a peace treaty with Portugal. Sumeria supplies us with a luxury (and can still supply us with iron). I can do the following:
1. Declare war on Spain.
2. Sign a military alliance with Korea against Spain. That likely liberates one of their luxuries or resources for trading. But wait... the only deal might be horses getting exported from Spain and getting imported to Korea. Korea though had a fair number of extra luxuries if I recall correctly.
3. If that liberates a luxury from Korea, then we can use disconnect-reconnect to get their gold. Korea is making 144 gpt this turn, and has been losing money in their bank (they could be upgrading rifles I suppose). I can get some of that, and maybe pick up Steam Power in a few turns (I started research on it, but oh well).
I can also sign the Byzantines into the war against Spain, and that will be for free.
Let me check on the number of native luxuries Korea has here.
Edit: O. K. Korea has 3 silks, and 3 wines native... one of the silks is underneath Pusan. So, they *could* be supplying one silk to Sumeria, and one to Portugal, and thus no silks or wines to Spain. But, they are more possible cases where they aren't supplying one silk or one wine to Sumeria or Portugal. But wait, I can figure this out, I think. I can just do city investigations with Sumeria and Portugal and see what luxuries they have. Or... of course... just do one with Spain to see if they have silks or wines (unless someone else has those on the map).
Any objections to a war with Spain and the Byzantines at the same time? It might get kind of hairy with unit landings, but, I suppose we have the draft now at least.
Edit 2: Oh... New Karkaroum is likely gone with a war on Spain. Wait a second though. That city has two fur resources! We could sell furs to Korea, so they aren't importing any. Thus, we can gift Korea New Karakorum, and then trade for the furs + hard goods. Only question I have now is... do I put in a harbor there first? And I think the answer to that is "yes". I think I also wait just one more turn on that war with the Byzantines, so we can get Korea against them.
We still have turns left on a peace treaty with Portugal. Sumeria supplies us with a luxury (and can still supply us with iron). I can do the following:
1. Declare war on Spain.
2. Sign a military alliance with Korea against Spain. That likely liberates one of their luxuries or resources for trading. But wait... the only deal might be horses getting exported from Spain and getting imported to Korea. Korea though had a fair number of extra luxuries if I recall correctly.
3. If that liberates a luxury from Korea, then we can use disconnect-reconnect to get their gold. Korea is making 144 gpt this turn, and has been losing money in their bank (they could be upgrading rifles I suppose). I can get some of that, and maybe pick up Steam Power in a few turns (I started research on it, but oh well).
I can also sign the Byzantines into the war against Spain, and that will be for free.
Let me check on the number of native luxuries Korea has here.
Edit: O. K. Korea has 3 silks, and 3 wines native... one of the silks is underneath Pusan. So, they *could* be supplying one silk to Sumeria, and one to Portugal, and thus no silks or wines to Spain. But, they are more possible cases where they aren't supplying one silk or one wine to Sumeria or Portugal. But wait, I can figure this out, I think. I can just do city investigations with Sumeria and Portugal and see what luxuries they have. Or... of course... just do one with Spain to see if they have silks or wines (unless someone else has those on the map).
Any objections to a war with Spain and the Byzantines at the same time? It might get kind of hairy with unit landings, but, I suppose we have the draft now at least.
Edit 2: Oh... New Karkaroum is likely gone with a war on Spain. Wait a second though. That city has two fur resources! We could sell furs to Korea, so they aren't importing any. Thus, we can gift Korea New Karakorum, and then trade for the furs + hard goods. Only question I have now is... do I put in a harbor there first? And I think the answer to that is "yes". I think I also wait just one more turn on that war with the Byzantines, so we can get Korea against them.
Last edited:
The trade embargo against us by Egypt and Korea has ended! We can get all sorts of stuff from Korea. There exist two peaceful possibilities:
1. On the turn I'm on right now, I can gift Hovd to Korea. That should give them a surplus saltpeter. Since Lanzelot left us with a bunch of workers around the capital, and I've gotten them around one tile instead of spread out, I can almost surely get Steam Power on this turn, a bunch of their gpt and gold if not all of it. And possibly even Industrialization (maybe not though).
2. Don't give them Hovd this turn, and instead give them New Karkorum on the next turn. They don't have any furs. We have extra furs from New Karakorum. So, I think I can gift them New Karakorum (it's finishing up a harbor on this turn) on the next turn, trade for those furs and their hard goods (and gpt, whatever they have on the next turn).
Which are you all in favor of?
Also, I hate this new system for the forums so far. I keep on writing, and it removes my spaces between lines in the middle of when I'm writing. I wish I knew how to prevent this system from removing my spacing. I'm not seeing this as an "upgrade". More like a reversion. Imagine that... software companies naming their changes "reversions". That would be the day...
Edit: Under 1., I think start the war with Byzantines this turn. Under 2., I wait until next turn.
1. On the turn I'm on right now, I can gift Hovd to Korea. That should give them a surplus saltpeter. Since Lanzelot left us with a bunch of workers around the capital, and I've gotten them around one tile instead of spread out, I can almost surely get Steam Power on this turn, a bunch of their gpt and gold if not all of it. And possibly even Industrialization (maybe not though).
2. Don't give them Hovd this turn, and instead give them New Karkorum on the next turn. They don't have any furs. We have extra furs from New Karakorum. So, I think I can gift them New Karakorum (it's finishing up a harbor on this turn) on the next turn, trade for those furs and their hard goods (and gpt, whatever they have on the next turn).
Which are you all in favor of?
Also, I hate this new system for the forums so far. I keep on writing, and it removes my spaces between lines in the middle of when I'm writing. I wish I knew how to prevent this system from removing my spacing. I'm not seeing this as an "upgrade". More like a reversion. Imagine that... software companies naming their changes "reversions". That would be the day...
Edit: Under 1., I think start the war with Byzantines this turn. Under 2., I wait until next turn.
Last edited:
Can you attach the current save, please? I need to get a clear picture in order to form a well-founded opinion on these questions.
The research spent on Steam may not have been wasted: we might not have had enough gpt for getting it at full price, but with a bit of own research put into it, the price has dropped enough that we can now get it?!
The research spent on Steam may not have been wasted: we might not have had enough gpt for getting it at full price, but with a bit of own research put into it, the price has dropped enough that we can now get it?!
Wait, aren't those our only sources of Saltpeter and Furs? Don't you think we kinda need those?
Yes.
Those cities have our only sources of saltpeter and furs, yes. But, the purchasing price for furs right now is about 25 gpt (I've been purchasing incense from Sumeria for 24 gpt). We'd still have access to furs or saltpeter by purchasing furs or saltpeter from Korea. Korea has 144 gpt on this turn. I don't find it easy to guess at how that will change for next turn, but within 10 turns I would guess it's likely that on some turn they have 100 gpt extra available on some turn. They have 4006 gold, Steam Power, Industrialization, and Communism (if we think a police station useful... them having Fascism I think irrelevant). Also, we can sign them into a military alliance against the Byzantines with furs thrown into the mix probably, and then cancel it with trade route pillaging. We'd have to pay more in unit support for having one less city, but I think we make that up with gpt, technology, and gold coming from Korea. So, I feel very confident in asserting that Korea having the furs is likely to be more beneficial than us having the furs (at least right now... later on with a larger empire, that's a different story).
The value of having the saltpeter vs. acquiring it from Korea I don't find as clear. I'd still guess that trading for the saltpeter instead of having it would be the more beneficial strategy. But, the saltpeter route doesn't require waiting a turn, while the furs route does require waiting a turn, if we want that furs city to have a harbor.
MrRandomGuy
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2013
- Messages
- 353
Wait...why would we give any civ a city that has a resource? I don't understand your thinking.
So we can get their gold, gold per turn, world maps, technology, or sign a military alliance with them against someone else which then gets canceled on the same turn (or the next turn if there was a mistake). The military alliance is so that our enemy won't sign a military alliance against us. E. G. if we're at war with the Byzantines, and get Korea into the war with a military alliance against the Byzantines, which then gets cancelled, we aren't paying any gpt to Korea after the cancellation. But, Korea is at war with the Byzantines. So, the Byzantines cannot sign a military alliance with Korea against us. I've never known two AIs to sign a peace treaty and then they immediately sign a military alliance against my empire.
Also, later potentially with Korea having some resource or luxury that we do not, we could get Korea to declare war on us for war happiness or so that we don't break our reputation when going to war with them. But, that's a long ways away in this game, if it's desired.
You need to understand that what myself and Spoonwood have been doing the last two turnsets, is a very counter-intuitive but highly powerful exploit. It allows you to drain an AI of everything it has: their technologies, lump sums, gpt, world maps and even MAs or war declarations (= free war happiness). And all for free without any reputation hit to the human player. (Basically you get all they have for free and they take the rep hit for that...
)I haven't used it before, as it is banned in the GOTM competition, but in the HoF competition it is allowed, and high-level HoF players use it for winning Sid games.
It works by putting anything you want (e.g. a tech) + a resource on their side of the table and an amount of gpt (so that they accept that deal) on your side. After the deal is signed, you pillage all roads around your capital. Then they are no longer able to ship that resource to you (for which they take a rep hit...), so the deal gets canceled. Which means you no longer have to pay the gpt you put on the table, but you keep the tech -- for free.
Then you repair a road with pre-placed workers on the right tile and do it again...
We have now drained Byzantium of everything they had (about 15 free techs, their gold, world map and even a large part of their gpt -- which was then used to steal those more expensive techs for which our own gpt was not sufficient... so basically we have been using their gpt to steal their techs from them... highly sophisticated stuff...
)Now Byzantium has nothing left of interest, so Spoonwood wants to repeat that scam with Korea... Problem is only: Korea does not have a resource that we can import. So we gift them one of ours -- and in return we can relieve them off their remaining techs (Steam is particularly important), 4000 gold and several hundred gpt. Definitely worth much more than our furs. (And we can give them 25 of their gpt to get one of our furs back...)
Now that I have seen this exploit in action, I must say it's banned in the GOTM for a good reason... The game becomes too easy that way. As we were in a quite desperate situation in this game, using it was kind of justified, but a win earned "the hard way" feels more satisfying...
Last edited:
MrRandomGuy
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2013
- Messages
- 353
But we'd be giving away our only resources. It would make sense to do this if we had more resources that we didn't need. Like a second city that had fur/salt access. We don't. We need to keep those cities for unit production and happiness. Surely there's another way to sign MA's/tech without giving a city away. Grabbing their gold or gpt doesn't seem worth losing a city with a strategic resource.
There's some cost in the military units used to pillage and worker turns use to road. Also, there's the commerce not gained from having fewer roads. But, it's so small of a cost and not much commerce is not gained for this big of an empire, that I think I understand why you use the term 'free'. Also, later build time on railroads, or going without railroads for a bit in some sqaures as I did in some of my Sid games.
I wasn't planning to do both. Just one. Doing both wouldn't provide any extra benefit. Only one extra luxury or one extra resource is needed.
If I give away Hovd, the city with saltpeter, Korea will have an extra source of saltpeter. They also won't trade it away, since it will still be our turn. I will then pay gpt for that saltpeter. So, we would still have a source of saltpeter for building cavalry and cannons, or upgrading to cavalry and cannons.
If I give away New Karakorum, Korea will have two sources of furs, since New Karakorum has two sources of furs. You can check this via the save. Also, note that we could sell one of the furs to Korea right now. It will still be our turn, and I'll pay gpt for those furs. So, we'd have the same amount of luxuries total for happiness. There's a potential advantage of giving away New Karakorum which I hadn't remembered when writing the above. Korea would have another luxury. So, they *might* have more citizens working tiles for some of their cities. That could mean that they would make more gpt overall which we could get.
Also, purchasing a luxury is almost always, if not always, less expensive than purchasing a resource. So, giving away New Karakorum likely has more benefit. But, for the harbor to finish that requires waiting a turn. So, there's a little more risk. But, even if Naissus gets a rifle on this next turn, I can probably still capture it with the stack of units now near it.
4006 gold + Steam Power 15 turns earlier + (100 x 20) = 2000 gold [gpt from Korea] + military alliance + possibly Industrialization is a lot more than 30 gpt for 20 turns [purchasing furs from Korea overestimate], which is just 600 gold. 50 gpt for 20 turns is just 1000 gold even. And gpt from Korea might even be much more than that. 4000 gold easily gives enough gold to purchase a factory and coal plant to reduce the amount of time to produce an army, and purchasing a worker, and then immediately purchasing an army (before the turn ends) is 1640 gold if I recall correctly. 4000 gold can be 2 army purchases or less time on one army purchase, with such "wormies" as such short rushing a worker and then buying an army has gotten called before.
I prefer giving New Karakorum away, for the following reasons:
- Holding that town is more difficult than holding Hovd. E.g. if someone (the Byzantines) sign up Portugal against us again, the town will be lost immediately: we have one spear and one LB in that town, and I have already seen Portuguese Cavs around...
- Buying furs for gpt will be cheaper than buying an important strategic resource like saltpeter. (The current cost for iron is 123gpt at the moment, saltpeter will even be more expensive, I assume)
- We definitely need saltpeter for Cavalry (Armies). It's the only way to be halfway successful against Rifles. So having our own resource would let me sleep easier. If we depend on buying saltpeter from Korea, and someone signs Korea up in a trade embargo against us again, our war effort will be screwed...
(Can someone tell me how to do bullet lists in this new forum style?!)
- Holding that town is more difficult than holding Hovd. E.g. if someone (the Byzantines) sign up Portugal against us again, the town will be lost immediately: we have one spear and one LB in that town, and I have already seen Portuguese Cavs around...
- Buying furs for gpt will be cheaper than buying an important strategic resource like saltpeter. (The current cost for iron is 123gpt at the moment, saltpeter will even be more expensive, I assume)
- We definitely need saltpeter for Cavalry (Armies). It's the only way to be halfway successful against Rifles. So having our own resource would let me sleep easier. If we depend on buying saltpeter from Korea, and someone signs Korea up in a trade embargo against us again, our war effort will be screwed...
(Can someone tell me how to do bullet lists in this new forum style?!)
MrRandomGuy
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2013
- Messages
- 353
New Karakorum trade makes the most sense if we're going to do it that way. I don't see us holding the city for very long, especially with that cavalry fortified on the border. That indicates Portugal is planning something and will likely attack soon.
Similar threads
