Multiplayer: Stopping greeks

[Ermak-]

Anybody has any ideas how to stop greek phalanx/ companion cav ? I see no contemparary unit to compete with them. Horsemen r already overpowered, that makes Camp Cav even more so. Even if u manage to get enough spearmen they cant catch up to cav before they burn ur cities. If u managed to get a chokepoint u still is outmarched by hoplites. The only way to have a chance is to have immortals maybe and good choke point. Very unbalanced

 

[dkrussian]

There's always the "Bismarck Swarm"

It's kinda like zerglings from sc2, terran is strictly better but you can catch someone unawares sometimes.

 

[DaveMcW]

Civil Service slingshot.

1. Writing
2. Buy library
3. Run 2 scientists
4. Trapping
5. Philosophy
6. Bulb Civil Service
7. Spam pikemen

This costs an extra 310 gold and 23 citizen-turns over the HBR beeline, so you'll be approximately 2 horsemen behind. With smart defense you should be able to hold out until pikes.

Obviously Germany is the best civ to try this with.

 

[Biz_]

on an open map greece is ridiculously overpowered

if it's a 1v1 on a map where you can force him to attack through just 1 route then you can stay alive, but you still can't stop him from expanding whereas you will be confined to grow to strategically defensible sites rather than economically optimal sites

in a typical NvS even if you manage to find a way to defend yourself, your ally is dead

even if you manage to get pikes quick, you will be way behind in terms of expansion and will die eventually (if it's a teamgame, your ally dies anyways)

best bet is probably china or japan or maybe france and a strategy of making horsemen and warrior upgrading to swords. greece is still more powerful, but you might move faster or play better or whatever

 

[alpaca]

The problem with CC is that they can move 5 tiles (move in 2, attack, move back 2) so they very rarely end in a position where you can counter-attack. I don't see a useful way to counter this, the best option is probably to build a couple of warriors and go for Swordsmen, but the Greek player can then outmaneouver you unless you have a very compact empire.

How about house rules? A "no CC rush" rule comes to mind. Greek might still be strong enough for the UA

 

[Monthar]

You could also try England and the Longbows. That range of 3 can be very useful in this situation.

 

[alpaca]

You could also try England and the Longbows. That range of 3 can be very useful in this situation.

Longbows are medieval, you're dead before you can get the first one.

 

[Antarion]

first of all it depends on the settings and your civ.

if you got an ancient UU too, then go to war and use your strength too. best suited for this are imho not germans (it takes time till camps spawn spearmen) but dareios. then watch out which SoPo path he follows.
if he goes totally the honor tree then you should try to go this up to the GG too and bunker him in a border town. this town needs a WALL.

the best place for this border town is 1 tile away from a river (he will loose all his movement by crossing it!) or in rough terrain, especially on a hill to shoot him down from there.

if the situation is a wide open land, forget to expand except for some resources especially horses to counter him in your own land. make a fortress out of your capital until you reach pikes. CC are just 2 more strength and 1 more movement. not that big deal if you fight a defensive war. make your borders big, at best try to grab oligarchy too (best combat policy ever)

 

[Antarion]

The problem with CC is that they can move 5 tiles (move in 2, attack, move back 2) so they very rarely end in a position where you can counter-attack. I don't see a useful way to counter this, the best option is probably to build a couple of warriors and go for Swordsmen, but the Greek player can then outmaneouver you unless you have a very compact empire.

How about house rules? A "no CC rush" rule comes to mind. Greek might still be strong enough for the UA

what a stupid idea, to take away a nations strength would be like not allowing france to settle fast some fresh cities or to stop aztecs rushing the jungle with jaguars

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Try to press their horse with warriors and stop/delay it being improved (especially if they don't have it in the capitol).

CC aren't THAT much stronger than horses, so you also have the option of abusing defensive terrain to pick them off...in home territory your mobility advantage should overtake the CC.

Fast pikes via the bulb like DaveMCW suggests sounds promising also, especially if you manage to harass/slow down their access to horse for a while.

If they don't go honor or tradition and you do they'll struggle, but I'd imagine most will go honor. Once you have pikes though, it will be hard for them to do anything serious to you.

 

[troytheface]

build horse

fight fire with fire

pillage pastures

the evidence is clear- Making Greece cry home to mama

 

[alpaca]

what a stupid idea, to take away a nations strength would be like not allowing france to settle fast some fresh cities or to stop aztecs rushing the jungle with jaguars

As long as all players agree to the house rule I don't see the problem? If the "nation's strength" is such that it just creates unbalanced, unfun gameplay, then yes, removing it is the correct decision.

 

[Tabarnak]

Civil Service slingshot.

1. Writing
2. Buy library
3. Run 2 scientists
4. Trapping
5. Philosophy
6. Bulb Civil Service
7. Spam pikemen

QUOTE]

This is good stuff. But maybe a little too late for an early rush. And don't buy library. Never. Not in multi at least.

I usually go for animal husbandry, mining then bronze working, IN ANY CASE/GAME. This is the best. Happiness can wait. Rush 1 or 2 cities and spam/buy spearman. You can easily have 4-5 of them by 2000 b.c. Scout his cap to see if he has horses in. If he does, follow this strategy.

At this rate, 2 companions can knock your door at that time(2000 bc.). But they are toast with such many spearmen. And honor tree need 2 policies right of the bat to see a GG or the 15% bonus, wich is hard to get so soon, unless you pop-up 2 culture ruins.

A better way to leverage a great scientist from a library is to bulb steel around turn 60 and upgrade to longswordmen. With a good preparation you can throw 6-8 of them if you have ressources plus a GG around turn 70 and in 95% of cases nobody can resist this powerful blow, probably the most powerful strategy in the b.c. turns.

 

[Antarion]

As long as all players agree to the house rule I don't see the problem? If the "nation's strength" is such that it just creates unbalanced, unfun gameplay, then yes, removing it is the correct decision.

where is the unbalance? i cant see it. i dont have trouble to hold up a horsemen rush, doesnt matter if CC or not.

 

[Biz_]

most games where greeks will rush you don't have goody huts and city states... you wont be buying libraries

 

[Biz_]

where is the unbalance? i cant see it. i dont have trouble to hold up a horsemen rush, doesnt matter if CC or not.

there is nothing you can make early in the game that will even come close to hurting CC other than horsemen of your own... and guess who has stronger horsemen...

 

[alpaca]

where is the unbalance? i cant see it. i dont have trouble to hold up a horsemen rush, doesnt matter if CC or not.

The OP post implies an imbalance, or at least a perceived imbalance. I took it at face value because I don't play multiplayer and I know I wouldn't be able to fight successfully against CC with their 5 moves and huge combat values. If you have different experiences, continue to play against Greeks by all means, I was just making a suggestion how people who see an imbalance can increase their fun in playing the game.

 

[Antarion]

there is nothing you can make early in the game that will even come close to hurting CC other than horsemen of your own... and guess who has stronger horsemen...

my standard defense is oligarchy, walls with general in it, rivers and rough terrain. thats a huge obstacle to overcome.

you wont pass it. and if you dont have natural obstacles create a citadell...always scout your opponent and watch the demograph. thats the first rule ppl should learn if they play MP (or maybe play some matches starcraft to learn how to scout )

 

[flyingbunnys]

Mohawk Warriors thats how I deal with them.

I usually have most all of my cities in or near forest. With mohawk warriors those forest spots in my territory count as roads so I can catch this horsemen, and if he is on a forest or jungle tile or flat tile the mohawk warrior has equal or more strenth.

Unless he can reach an open hill spot the campion calvery is easily defeted by mohawk warriors. So make sure you camp a unit on nearby open hills and pick off the champion calvery with mohawk warriors.

 

[boehj]

Mohawk Warriors thats how I deal with them.

I usually have most all of my cities in or near forest. With mohawk warriors those forest spots in my territory count as roads so I can catch this horsemen, and if he is on a forest or jungle tile or flat tile the mohawk warrior has equal or more strenth.

Unless he can reach an open hill spot the campion calvery is easily defeted by mohawk warriors. So make sure you camp a unit on nearby open hills and pick off the champion calvery with mohawk warriors.

Hah, very nice. I hadn't thought of that. Sounds like an excellent idea.