Musketeer rush

[iamdanthemansta]

Since you can get to Gunpowder in only 9 techs, how well does going right for Musketeers work?

 

[Mon Mauler]

I did this in one game, and it worked really, really well. Basically, I got to Musketeers as quickly as possible, and then started warring. I think I won an early domination victory, but I can't remember the specifics.

The musketeer is much more valuable than a lot of people give it credit for. If you are able to get a tech lead in military techs, you can start churning out musketeers as offensive units. The +1 movement ability allows them to get where they are going quickly, which allows you to conduct your wars quickly. Then, when people start catching up in military techs, the musketeers remain useful as defensive units on your border.

I actually think the best way to get to gunpowder isn't a beeline, but more of a balanced approach. Once you do start warring it is important to be able to support your new lands with some kind of infrastructure in terms of courthouses and temples and such.

-MM

 

[Mrrshan68]

i find that gunpowder is a dead end tech, if you beeline to it you kinda end up in a hole, with nowhere to go and an empire that is bacially hollow (no infastructure).
And musketmen/teers are not terribly impressive, knights come earlier and are just as good if not better (for attacking anyway) and longbows are damn near as good as muskets for defence (in a city).
Although a grenadier rush might be interesting str 12 with defence bonuses would really rip up knights/longbows/macemen etc and its only 1450 beakers more than a straight up gunpowder rush...

 

[player1 fanatic]

Next time try Cavalry rush with Russians.

 

[Thalassicus]

Should be able to upgrade Axes/Swords/Maces to Musketeers. Then they'd be really useful

9 strength 2-move gunpowder units with City Raider promotions...mmm...

 

[Rhianni]

Gunpowder maybe only 9 steps but its fairly deep if you go straight for it. You will miss out on important civ building techs.

As has been posted. The musketeer is basically a knight that avoids walls. The knight can be gained earlier.

I think a better strategy would be for the french to build and bide their time. When they get musketeers after building up other techs, cities, and infrastructure then make your attacks and wars.

 

[KillerCardinal]

As has been posted. The musketeer is basically a knight that avoids walls. The knight can be gained earlier.

Eh, I have to disagree with this. A musketeer is basically a knight that avoids walls, and no earlier units counter it. To me at least, that adds up to something pretty useful! It allowd me to kick butt when I started an offensive with them, since the enemy had lots of spearmen and pikemen, some with the formation promotion. The musketeers cut RIGHT through them.

 

[dh_epic]

Musketeers are a powerful unit if people understand how to use them. The high movement rate is really underestimated. It lets the war happen MUCH faster, which means you blow less money on maintainance costs in the long run. Also, the fast movement rate makes them a terror -- you can pillage without having to worry too much about anyone even coming close to you.

Musketeers are crazy powerful when you do a rennaisance era start. Absolutely brutal.

 

[Grogs]

Eh, I have to disagree with this. A musketeer is basically a knight that avoids walls, and no earlier units counter it.

That last part is really what makes the difference to me. If you're the only one with gunpowder, the musketeer is 9 strength regardless of what type of unit it's fighting. This can be pretty useful for breaking that stalemate you often get where knights get pikes as defenders and crossbowmen get longbows. The 2 moves also make for a pretty good pillaging unit. Also, if you're playing Napoleon, just 1 civic (theocracy or vassalage) is enough to send your musketeers out with the formation promotion, making them good knight killers. I don't really recommend flat-out beelining for gunpowder and ignoring everything else though. You'll probably get there just as fast, if not faster by picking up science/economy techs along the way as well. Overall, I'd say musketeers aren't a game-winning solution on their own, but properly planned out and timed they may be enough to steamroll 1 AI civ before everyone else catches up, which is really all you can say about most UU's.

 

[Bhruic]

A musketeer is basically a knight that avoids walls, and no earlier units counter it.

I'd go a step further. It's basically a knight that avoid walls, has no early counter, and still gets defensive bonuses. That's what makes it so valuable, imo, the fact that if the enemy tries to counter-attack yours stack, it'll have a lot more trouble against Musketeers than against Knights.

Bh

 

[strollen]

I'd go a step further. It's basically a knight that avoid walls, has no early counter, and still gets defensive bonuses. That's what makes it so valuable, imo, the fact that if the enemy tries to counter-attack yours stack, it'll have a lot more trouble against Musketeers than against Knights.

Bh

I don't think Musketeers are all that. The one game I played with Napolean I prioritized Gunpowder and got it first, but didn't neglect economic techs. Frankly, I found Musketeers to be great pillaging troops but lousy at taking cities. You still need to bring up the catupults and spend a few turns reducing the cities cultural value. A musketeer with combat II or even Combat III (with Napolean) is only slightly ahead of fortified xbow or longbow with City Garrison II and is slighly behind a fortified Maceman with combat II.

In contrast the Russian Cossack strength 18 with the 50% mounted bonus completely dominates the battlefield for hundreds of years. If your opponent still has longbow or Xbow you can blitz cities with a 40% or less cultural value. Even Pikeman can be taken out with ease. If your opponent has has musketeers, grenadiers, or even rifleman, giving the Cossack a pinch promotion makes it ahead when defending. Heck even machine guns, and infantry are typically less powerful than most Cossacks. Of course, Knights, cannons, and Cavalry are just devasted by them.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Cossack rush...
Yummy!

 

[Gufnork]

Actually Cossacks dominates until another civ gets Rifling, which is about 20 turns or so. Actually a civ with great production and a brain (thus not an AI) can still beat you with Pikemen. You get two Pikemen for the price of one Cossack, so you can easily beat them by swarming. They work great against AI:s, atleast on lower difficulties.

 

[Wash Cycle]

Everyone keeps talking about 9 technologies to get to Gunpowder, would anyone mind spelling out exactly what those are? In order, preferably.

 

[strollen]

Everyone keeps talking about 9 technologies to get to Gunpowder, would anyone mind spelling out exactly what those are? In order, preferably.

Good question. Clicking on Gunpowder in the research screen from a starting position, the Advisor shows 11 techs. Hunting, Husbandry to get writing.
Then Masonary, mysticism, polythesism, monothesism, theology, paper, Education, Gundpowder. So if you start with hunting then it requires only 9 tech and Gunpowder is your 10th.

I honestly can't imagine trying to run a civilization with that collection of techs. No agriculture, no roads, and no military unit better than a warrior. I guess you can build most religious structures, and library and universities. So obviously a pure beeline strategy is out at any level above noble.

 

[strollen]

Actually Cossacks dominates until another civ gets Rifling, which is about 20 turns or so. Actually a civ with great production and a brain (thus not an AI) can still beat you with Pikemen. You get two Pikemen for the price of one Cossack, so you can easily beat them by swarming. They work great against AI:s, atleast on lower difficulties.

Not really Cossack with two promotions combat 1, pinch vs a Rifleman with combat II. Rifleman are 25% vs mounted.
Cossack 18
Rifleman 14*1.1= 15.4
Which means the Cossack will win roughly 70% of the time when defending.
Even if the Rifleman is fortified the ratio is
14 *1.35 = 18.9 The cosack will win about 35% of the time and of the remaining 65% that it loses it will withdraw 30% of the time. Meaning that more than 1/2 the time it will survive.

As for the pike no way. A pikeman is 12 (+100 mounted) vs 18, which means it will lose almost 90% of the time vs a cossack. If if you have two pikeman per cossack the first one will typically only get one or two hits on the Cossacks dropping its strength to 15+ or 12+, meaning the second attack, will also fail more than 60-75% of the time.

 

[Gufnork]

You're talking about the Cossack defending. That's not going to happen when you have the tech lead. You won't be able to take any cities with Cossacks against a smart player, which means they're useless in my book. Sure, they're the ultimate pillagers, but pillaging is a waste of time.

 

[strollen]

You're talking about the Cossack defending. That's not going to happen when you have the tech lead. You won't be able to take any cities with Cossacks against a smart player, which means they're useless in my book. Sure, they're the ultimate pillagers, but pillaging is a waste of time.

No I am talking about Cossack both defending and attacking. Hence the example of a Cossack attacking a fortified Rifleman. I am not saying they are uber units (close though). If you have Cossack and your opponent has Rifleman, you still will need to bring in catupults/cannons to reduce the cities cultural defense to 0. But eventually you will be able to sucessfully take out cities protected by Rifleman as long as you have modest numerical superiority.

What is unique about Cossack is if your opponent has non-gunpowder units or muskets, Cossacks have enough strength to blitz cities without the need for siege units.

I don't think the same is true of Musketeers, there are good pillagers but lousy for taking cities, since they lack the firepower to take out cities. Muskeeters are easily counter by Rifleman. In contrast you need infantry to counter Cossacks, which is many techs after Military tradition.

 

[thordk]

for rushing you need strong units early on, to not let enemy cities gain much culture, thus requiring siege weapons or massive losses of troops.

my preferable order in "rush" units is: praetorians (those little bastards are overpowered) and keshiks.
for wars carried into the early middle ages, cho-ko-nuk (spelling?) are the win, the collateral damage and first strike traits are great for conquering cities on hills defended by longbowmen.

you may perceive something like 6.6 vs 16.8 when engaging, but usually, 3-4 attacks are enough to weaken those troops enough to get the city conquered by some swordsmen (or another cho )

 

[Draax]

...... but pillaging is a waste of time.

huh? How do you beat a decent opponent without pillaging?