Musketmen - poor design, poor tech placement?

[jimbob27]

I don't think musketmen are the real problem. The real problem is the fact it's so easy to beeline to either chemistry or military tradition, you can get a powerful unit far too early. By the time musketmen come around grenadiers and cavalry are just around the corner, so people aim for them, and totally skip out musketmen.

I think rifling should be a prerequesite for both cavalry and grenadiers. Cavalry are supposed to be mounted riflemen anyways. I can't see people firing flintlock muskets from horseback. They should be pushed back in the tech tree, so it's impossible to get cavalry without rifling. It should be the same for grenadiers. Grenadiers are the counter for riflemen, so it doesn't make sence that they come before riflemen have been invented.

 

[yavoon]

I don't think musketmen are the real problem. The real problem is the fact it's so easy to beeline to either chemistry or military tradition, you can get a powerful unit far too early. By the time musketmen come around grenadiers and cavalry are just around the corner, so people aim for them, and totally skip out musketmen.

I think rifling should be a prerequesite for both cavalry and grenadiers. Cavalry are supposed to be mounted riflemen anyways. I can't see people firing flintlock muskets from horseback. They should be pushed back in the tech tree, so it's impossible to get cavalry without rifling. It should be the same for grenadiers. Grenadiers are the counter for riflemen, so it doesn't make sence that they come before riflemen have been invented.

but they aren't. the beeline to gunpowder is actually very swift. if the units were useful at all ppl would do it and get them far before cavalry. once u get gunpowder u can be up to 6 techs away from cavalry and 7 away from rifling.

if of course they were good enough to beeline for.

 

[Xanikk999]

This guy said they had 1 movement...

I thought musketeers had two?

Did firaxis change that?

 

[Head Serf]

I personnally find the Jannisaries very useful (Ottoman UU, replaces musketmen). Mixed with trebs, they have virtually no counter until riflemen; Grenadier is 12 vs Jannisary 9 x 1.25 = 12.

 

[nullspace]

Musketmen have 1 move, French Musketeers have 2, this topic has mostly been about musketmen.

About only use I can imagine for musketmen is if you lack copper and iron. Then a beeline for gunpowder could make good use of musketmen in an offensive. Since they don't have any particular weaknesses, they are decent at attacking stacks.

 

[Colossian]

About only use I can imagine for musketmen is if you lack copper and iron.

What about a horse? If I have a horse and an iron, I'd build Knight. Musketman is a poor unit, except some of UU. Musketman is next to Knight. Gunpowder is the next gerneration tech of Guild but Knight is better.
Everybody knows; Knight and Cavalry are the best. At that time, I mean at that era, Maceman is pretty much useful than Musketman.
Maceman doesnt have any special abilities vs Knight but it is easy to have a promotion, "vs +25% mounted" using its strength.

If you dont have any horse, you can have only 3 mans; Maceman, Pikeman, Musketman. Which one would you make to attack against Knight and Cavalry?

Maceman is all purpose unit, Musketman is not.

 

[methane]

But they don't have a bonus against regular Warriors, and even against Archers in a city, it's an even fight. Seems there are easier ways to get a second city.

Quecha's start with combat I promotion, so it's better than even vs. archers in a city. And you'll be hard pressed to settle a 2nd city better than an enemy capital. When you're not building settlers you can get several of them out in a hurry and beeline for your enemy city; you might wait until he settles a 2nd before you hit.

I don't have the expansion yet, but obviously you don't want to try this vs. a protective civ!

I've only tried a Quecha rush once, but it worked quite effectively. I know there are some articles in the strategy section that use an early quecha rush to set you up to win at a higher levels.

 

[a4phantom]

I agree, it is not an important unit, which I guess is historically accurate, since the early matchlock weapons weren't really more effective than longbows, just easier to use. I always thought it odd that they are obsoleted so quickly, perhaps more so than any other unit. Together with Crossbowmen, the Musketman is a unit that doesn't get produced unless you happen to be in a war at that particular moment, or unless you are deliberately trying to use appropriate techs for the time period (instead of rushing to the next most powerful tech). However, I would rather have more "useless" units than less for variety. I just feel bad for the French; I think they may have the most useless unique unit in the game (except perhaps for the Incas).

The Inca Quechua is an extremely powerful unit. It costs the same as the warrior but should beat most neighbors' warriors (+10% for being aggressive, +25% against melee for Shock only 2xp away) and will slaughter the next level unit, the archer, which is also the standard defensive unit for thousands of years. Combined with the perfect warmonger traits (at least pre-warlords, Inca may no longer be financial and aggressive) an Inca player is capable of annihilating all his neighbors before bronze. I've beat Monarch using the Inca and a small world, and I am definitely not a Monarch level player.

 

[a4phantom]

Being someone who enjoys playing the French, I suppose I have more occasion to think upon the use of the Musketman class unit that you get with gunpowder, but I'm wondering - am I the only one who thinks this is an inherently weak unit design which has a very small time-window to boot?

Absolutely. They are 1 point stronger than the previous unit and 5 points and a bonus against cavalry short of their replacement. I think I've ever built one. Their silliness is hinted at by the absence (I think) of any unit that upgrades to them. To be fair, musketmen can get city raider and the previous unit that does that is 3 points weaker, but I'm happy with crossbows against maces and pikes against knights. Since gunpowder revolutionized warfare (as someone noted, not because the original muskets were powerful but because they were easy to train peasant armies with), it seems like they should be a more relevant unit. Maybe much cheaper, since once the technology was established it was cheaper to equip musket armies than longbow armies?

 

[Dracleath]

The problem is more with grenadiers than muskets, in my unit balance tweak I did a few months ago here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=170288 I gave them a prereq of replacable parts. This gave a lot more time for the muskets to be in play.


They still are only a bit better than maces, but I think without grenadiers coming so soon its justifiable to build them as a general purpose unit.

 

[Mutineer]

If you make a search in forums you will find a few discussions about that.

But in short, Musketeers are Knigth but with out knigths weeknesses and with ignoring walls/castle bonuses. In addition, in difference with Knigth they are Draftable units.

Musketeers are a very good UU.

 

[Eternalsteelfan]

Musketmen are fine, they have one less strength then knights but they have no weakness and can fortify.

That is, the one or two techs they are useful. :/

The window is far too small, I'm just rehasing this but it's true, by the time you research gunpowder you can easily get chemistry completely obsoleting muskets. I think chemistry and Grenadiers are really what hurt muskets, if Chemistry was to be molved a bit further up the tech tree or Grenadiers dependent on a later tech, Muskets could be made useful.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

Civ 4: they were my favorite underrated UU. Warlords: Havent tried yet.

With Louis XIV, eh. But with Napoleon's former traits (Aggresive, Industrious), it was beautiful. I shot for gunpowder, got it before everyone else (while grabbing a bunch of wonders along the way), and using the free upgrade on gunpowder units that Napoleon got I could either build cheap units with two upgrades (because of course I had forges everywhere) or upgrade my melee units that also got a free upgrade. Then I had a heavily-experiened force that was mobile and didnt depend on horses (i.e. pikeman-war elephant fodder) while also ignoring those pesky walls and castles. And of course these highly-decorated units go right up the upgrade-chain. I got my highest Prince score (domination) with Napoleon.

In Warlords I havent tried him, but I imagine that "new" musketman (as in not upgraded) suffer from the loss of Aggresive.

I should also note I prefer mobility in UUs (cossacks, musketmen, war chariots, Keisheks) over firepower, all thing being even (redcoats being NOT even) because I use suicide cats liberally (and now trebs).

 

[Older than Dirt]

Unless playing as the French I see no reason to build muskets. Upgrading them is too expensive and I usually get chemistry the next tech and build grenadiers. Now if you can get gunpowder early and are French, now that may present some opportunities for liberating some neighboring benighted civ.

 

[gdgrimm]

Hmmmm. Gunpowder bee-line. I'll have to try that next time I play the French. I've been pretty happy with Machinery rushes with the Chinese to maximize the window Choko's are useful.

I'm just a little concerned with the Gunpowder bee-line though. How far up the other research chains do you go? Do you take Mathematics and any post-Math techs? What about CoL's and/or Civil Service? Fuedalism requires some pretty large techs itself, and I'm worried that you'll need things like Currency and Calendar to get an empire large enough to have a chance of finishing those techs in reasonable time frame.

 

[Proteus]

I also play Epic exclusively and I feel it's the only reason I ever build any, at all. I suppose you're right about the upgrades though - if the enemy is loaded up on anti-melee/archery upgrades they do (briefly) fill a gap.

I agree.
I always play on epic or marathon,
but, unless I´m at war at the time when I get the necessary tech,
I rarely bother with building any musketmen.
Instead I just wait until I can build better units.

 

[Randolph]

Looking through this thread I’ve noticed about a dozen technical errors (unit stats, promotion availability, etc). I realize that most people aren’t going to have their manual around, or civ open, so I though I would note that the civfanatics main-page has links to pages with all the unit stats, promotion availability, etc. I’m not sure if it’s all perfect (there have been changes in patches), but it’s still probably a good idea to look this stuff up if you’re at all unsure before you post. It’s rather frustrating to see so many reasonably intelligent analyses based on incorrect data.

 

[Thalatta]

I think Musketmen are fine - the point is that they have no inherent disadvantages, and 10 strength would probably be too strong. With the aggressive trait they can grab advantages due to the combat promotion. The loss of aggressive to Napoleon does hurt Musketeers, but I think they are still fine - and Janissaries look excellent.

The problem of their place in the tech tree is worth noting, however. It takes 3600 beakers after a Civil Service slingshot to reach Gunpowder...and then Chemistry "only" takes 3400 more. Machinery is just 1150 (assuming you have Bronze Working) and Macemen are arguably just as good, besides being far more dominant against Archers and Spearmen than Musketmen are against Longbowmen and Pikemen.

However, if you beeline Gunpowder, you'll probably have relevant Musketmen for a very long time.

 

[mitsho]

Imho, - as others have already stated too - the problem lies within the distance to the grenadiers. If these were a little harder respectively later to obtain, we wouldn't have a problem with Musketmen, as they would make sense. The easiest way to do this is really to give the chemistry (the grenadiertech, right?) another prerequisite to lenghten the research time.

mitsho

 

[DigitalBoy]

but they aren't. the beeline to gunpowder is actually very swift. if the units were useful at all ppl would do it and get them far before cavalry. once u get gunpowder u can be up to 6 techs away from cavalry and 7 away from rifling.

if of course they were good enough to beeline for.

Has anyone tried bee-lining Gunpowder? It doesn't seem practical. Early in the game, Metal Casting is a moderately expensive tech. Feudalism and Machinery are even more expensive. Guilds and Gunpowder more expensive still.