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Musketmen - poor design, poor tech placement?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by AfterShafter, Jul 31, 2006.

  1. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

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    Has anyone tried bee-lining Gunpowder? It doesn't seem practical. Early in the game, Metal Casting is a moderately expensive tech. Feudalism and Machinery are even more expensive. Guilds and Gunpowder more expensive still.
     
  2. kristopherb

    kristopherb Protective/Charismatic

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    the techs needed for rifling are good and well worth researching
     
  3. dh_epic

    dh_epic Cold War Veteran

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    One of the most important strategic things I've learned in civ is that it's not always smart to spend the 20 extra turns to get the next best unit. Sometimes it's best to strike while the iron's hot.

    So you might be tempted to say "I've got Muskets... but you know, I think I really want Cavalry or Grenadiers..." ... but you really ought to try slowing down your research, upgrading a slew of units, and striking with Muskets and Knights.
     
  4. yavoon

    yavoon King

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    if muskets were as game impacting as maces or axes or cavalry or rifles then ppl would do it. and I dont mean beeline out the gate, u'd probably stop at maces and kill someone then ur next push would be muskets.

    but its irrelevant because maces are better than muskets so there's no point.
     
  5. scottcstoness

    scottcstoness Chieftain

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    And the Janissaries are another reason t beeline for gunpowder, if you are playing the Ottomans.

    +25% vs. melee, mounted, archery

    In other words, you get to gunpowder, and you *own* everything else until they get gunpowder!
     
  6. Artanis

    Artanis King

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    I usually end up making a handful of Musketmen when playing as Russia due to the lag between getting Gunpowder and getting Rifling, plus the fact that Cossacks' raw power makes Grenadiers more or less pointless (since I can just pick on somebody else if the enemy gets Riflemen).
     
  7. a4phantom

    a4phantom Perma-newbie

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    Very true.

    But muskets aren't very good attackers (no city raider), and nothing upgrades to them that I know of.
     
  8. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    I am repeating over and over again and no one hear.
    Muskets are DRAFTABLE units.
    That mean if needed you can draft them in very short time and with out need to have higth production cities.
     
  9. nullspace

    nullspace King

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    But if you don't have gunpowder, then you can draft macemen.
     
  10. dh_epic

    dh_epic Cold War Veteran

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    Ahh, but they have no counters if you get to them early enough. No pre-gunpowder unit has a bonus against gunpowder. Moreoever, they ignore walls and castles.

    You're not going to dominate the enemy with musketmen alone. But in combination with either some siege units or some knights, you really can do some damage. Musketeers and Knights are something devestating for their speed.

    (Re: speed... It's way more important to winning a war than most people think. I remember in Civ 3, I never used to care about how fast I'd win a war because you would always win eventually. Because of that, I'd ALWAYS pick a better 1 movement unit over a 2 movement unit. But in Civ 4, a war has a lot of costs, and you start to fall behind if you're at war for too long. That's why 2 movement can be so valuable. It lets you do in 12 turns what might otherwise take 20+ turns.)
     
  11. a4phantom

    a4phantom Perma-newbie

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    But a fully fortified maceman is 10, and may have Combat promos accumulated over 3000 years while the musketman has only new promos, and not City Raider. A fortified longbowman defending a 0 culture city that's not on a hill is 9, and he'll have City Garrison.

    Yeah, I suspected that musketeers were probably worthwhile even if standard muskets aren't, as cheap knights without the spear/pike hard counter.


    Speed was very important in Civ3 too, although illiberal govts didn't get war weariness. That's why Ottoman Sipahi were so lethal, an unusually high attack on a 3 movement unit.
     
  12. drkodos

    drkodos Emperor

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    Well, that's like, just your opinion, man. ;)
     
  13. The Great Apple

    The Great Apple Big Cheese

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    Muskets have the advantage that no other units are likely to have promotions against them by the time they arrive, especially in Warlords, where you can't get pinch until Gunpowder.
     
  14. a4phantom

    a4phantom Perma-newbie

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    Like uh totally duh?:lol:
     
  15. GenocideBringer

    GenocideBringer King

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    Exactly. They are an all-round unit.
     
  16. SmartLittleman

    SmartLittleman Chieftain

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    Definantly Jans definantly own everything and even if they do get gunpowder get the Pinch promotion for those musketeers
     
  17. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    It should be telling that the AI never seems to build more than a few Musketmen.
     
  18. alpha wolf 64

    alpha wolf 64 Byte me

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    I do it all wrong. i beeline for education and gunpowder that way :)
     
  19. migthegreek

    migthegreek Back In Black

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    I think musketmen are useless. I would rather just keep building macemen.

    Musketmen need to be improved a bit for them to be any use - perhaps 10:strength: I dunno.
     
  20. Tavenier

    Tavenier King

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    The fact that they are gunpowder units makes most of the other promotions (like macemen having +50% against melee) useless. So the strength of 9 is not so bad, because you have to fight that s9 with the strength you have, and not with extra promo's. Except for the combat prom, of course. But that goes for the musketmen as well.
     

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