My Argument for FIN as Top Tier Trait

[bhavv]

If it could be rebalanced that would be great, but it would have to be via a mod, Firaxis gave up on Civ IV.

Drill IV and Guerilla III Xbows are deadly on the offensive, same with gunpowder units too.

I added security beureu as a half cost protective building back when I tried modding the game, but I gave up on that, I should remove my sig.

So Free Drill I and Guerilla I promotion for archery and gunpowder units, half cost Walls, Castle, Security Beureu would maybe be balanced?

Another thing I always wished was that the drill line could be condensed down to 3 promos instead of 4 without losing any of the current benefits.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

An additional benefit could be added for Drill IV instead of removing it entirely. Maybe a 15% bonus vs gunpowder units?

 

[Chrysheight]

FIN is a useful trait for economic route, especially with a Space Race victory. You raise some excellent points in your post as well.

 

[bhavv]

So what are your opinions on the order of FIN leaders?

IMO:

Hannibal
Hauyna
Pacal
Darius
Willem
Elizabeth
Victoria
Mansa
Wang Kon
Ragnar

 

[BigBizkit]

I just checked the files and things that could quite easily be changed are:

Health bonus
Happiness Bonus
Turns of max Anarchy (interesting)
Cheaper Upkeep
Experience needed for promotions
GreatPeopleRateModifier
GreatGeneralRateModifier
DomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier (like the Great Wall) -> this would fit the theme quite well
Wonder building bonus
Team project building bonus
national wonder building bonus
-- not quite sure about the following, especially their required syntax --
<ExtraYieldThresholds/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceChanges/>
<CommerceModifiers/>

...and free promotions

and of course: additional happiness from buildings and bonus production speed to certain buildings AND units.


This would be outside of my modding knowledge but I thought about a nice bonus that would fit the theme well: Chance of city revolts due to culture pressure reduced by 90%.

Other than that I would kind of like to change the bonus to something like 50% production bonus for the era defenders (archers etc.) problem is, while I think it would be alright for archers, longbows and machine guns, 50% on rifles seems overpowered.

 

[rah]

An incredibly niche situation but worth mentioning.

Yes, but as you say, a real niche.
Another real niche is prior to siege when Monty is your neighbor, it might help in your border city to defend against the inevitable jag swarm, but shock is usually just as effective. It is one of those rare times when I love to watch units immolate against a city.

 

[BigBizkit]

So what are your opinions on the order of FIN leaders?

Depends. Just the leaders or including their UB/UU?

In both cases I'd vote Huayna Capac #1.

As a whole package I'd say

Huayna
Dareios -> if circumstances are right, conquer early and have an easy time maintaining a working economy
Hannibal
Elizabeth -> phi is great I just don't like getting useless great people on the odd % chance, and with phi you kind of have to base your style on GPs
Mansa
Willem
Pacal -> last game I randomed him and he is better than I thought he was
Victoria
Wang -> his UB puts him barely above Ragnar in my book
Ragnar -> honestly, I don't think he is that bad, it's just that the other leaders are better. Played a domination archipelago map once with him and liked it.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Are we focusing just on the leader or do the civ's bonuses count, too? I'm treating this as standard civ-leader combination.

1. Hannibal -> The ability to work 6 or more FIN cottages in my expansion cities is just too much for me to deny. The Numidian Cavalry rush has never failed me. The Cothon further boosts your already buffed . CHA experience point buff just adds to all the awesomeness. Sure, fishing isn't the greatest starting tech but if you have a lake or coastal tile in capital BFC, early research is made up for.

2. Darius -> Immortals are one of the best UUs in the game IMO. The UB is great for late game health. ORG is meh but welcome when you break out (cheap courthouses and high civic costs). Decent starting techs.

3. Huayna Capac -> Who doesn't love a good ole Quechua rush? Terraces allow you to bypass whipping monuments since you almost always want a granary anyway (giving you nearly half of the Cultural trait bonus). IND allows faster Oxford (and other must-build national wonders), and gives you more fail gold to fund your FIN cottages. He would've made #2 if it weren't for uselessly starting with Mysticism (he has Terraces for crying out loud!)

4. Elizabeth -> Surprisingly not higher on my list is Lizzy. PHI is probably the strongest trait in the game. Uniques are decent enough but the starting techs are pretty sad. Even though Fishing can help make up for itself with 3 water tiles and Mining leads to BW, I'd rather have at least Agriculture to start. This is probably why Lizzy isn't higher on my list.

5. Willem van Orange -> Yeah, his UB comes late, UU useless on half Fractal maps and any Pangaea, and he starts with Fishing. But I have never lost a game with this guy (he's often my go-to guy when I move up a level). CRE allows you to totally bypass Mysticism and whipping monuments and a FIN fishing start can help you make up for the fact that you start with fishing in the first place. I dunno, on paper he seems like a low tier FIN leader but like I said... I've never lost with him.

6. Mansa Musa
7. Pacal
8. Victoria
Tie for 10th: Wang Kong
Tie for 10th: Ragnar

 

[Zacar]

1. Hannibal cannot deny OP
2. Darius

... Victoria Musa Pacal

... Eliza van Orange Capac

10. Wang "Ragnar" Kong

That's how I feel for now. I'm not into GP much, guess that'd boost Eliza.

 

[dutchfire]

I'd rate Mansa quite highly, spiritual is nice and most cities will get a forge, so a better forge is useful.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Mansa would've had Willem's place in my list. The problem is that I've lost with Mansa before! . I like SPI to be matched with other traits before FIN. Off the top of my head, PHI, CHA, and EXP come to mind

 

[elohssa]

So what are your opinions on the order of FIN leaders?

IMO:

Hannibal
Hauyna
Pacal
Darius
Willem
Elizabeth
Victoria
Mansa
Wang Kon
Ragnar

It's really hard to pick a winner out of Huyana, Hannibal, Darius and Willem. Willem's problem is that the Dutch are a water civ, but creative is less useful on archipelago. Incans are just super strong even without Huyana's traits. I'd say Darius is the best though as he has 2 traits that will make + save a ton of commerce over the course of a game plus his civ is not weak.

 

[sampsa]

I don't understand how Huayna isn't number one on everyone's list. Top tier traits, very strong UB and a ridiculously OP UU, even on normal speed.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Though they are certainly an awesome UU, I wouldn't call Quechuas overpowered. They will break you out of being blocked in by close AI and can probably take a second civ on crowded maps. However, the AI will usually have either metals or horses quick enough so the Quechua's window is fairly small.

HC is a very strong leader overall. I just enjoy all the FIN synergies that Hannibal offers. Really, my top 3 are interchangeable depending on the map.

 

[elitetroops]

However, the AI will usually have either metals or horses quick enough so the Quechua's window is fairly small.

The window might be small, but it's open when it matters the most. And the AI won't have metals or horses very quick if choked by Quechuas. There's a good reason why Inca is excluded from HoF EQM, in the hands of a strong player HC is in a league of his own.

 

[Windsor]

Huayna Capac is by far the best leader. And Quechuas are certainly overpowered. As known they are excellent rush/choke units, but even ignoring that:

- They provide excellent barb defense
- They allow you to take out barb cities cheap
- They can be built even if you have hunting and metal, making them great for HR-happy

Each of these three points alone make the Quechua a decent UU. They are reliable, versatile and make a difference in almost every game.

Huayna Capacs only drawback is starting with mysticism. That's a weak starting tech, especially when you got Terraces anyway.

 

[cseanny]

Huayna Capacs only drawback is starting with mysticism. That's a weak starting tech, especially when you got Terraces anyway.

Depends man. When playing as HC you're not gonna be building any early workers or making improvements. Just settle on hammer heavy tiles, make Quechuas in 3 turns and tech directly up to Priesthood, skipping virtually everything else.

So you've taken over at least 2 neighbors and kept what you want. Conquest gold fuels tech/war push and then you grab Currency as Oracle free tech. Pretty OP.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

My point in saying Quechuas are not OP is because you will have a hard time taking more than 1 or 2 civs with them. They are a powerful unit for all the reasons mentioned but are not OP because 1) you will have a hard time against hill fortified archers. 2) with protective civs you will need large numbers of them 3) you will definitely want barracks in previously mentioned situations (actually always want barracks for cover promo) and even then you will need many of them. 4) you normally cannot continue a Quechua rush past an early point because subsequent targets have metals/horses/distance from you.

As for HoF I've seen those starts (which are some of the best I've ever seen) and you should probably remove a couple of other leaders from the list (like Rameses and Darius) if we're going by powerful traits and early UU. Just saying

 

[Windsor]

Depends man. When playing as HC you're not gonna be building any early workers or making improvements. Just settle on hammer heavy tiles, make Quechuas in 3 turns and tech directly up to Priesthood, skipping virtually everything else.

So you've taken over at least 2 neighbors and kept what you want. Conquest gold fuels tech/war push and then you grab Currency as Oracle free tech. Pretty OP.

That strategy will cost you lots of games as there is a significant chance you'll fail.

But more importantly, unless you actually beeline for priesthood 100% then you lose out.

 

[bhavv]

Starting with mysticism isn't that big a deal. Make a worker while teching agriculture / mining, job done.