My first Monarch start

[vhhawk]

So I decided to make the jump from Noble to Monarch, and chose Ramesses for my first try. My early choices made the early going particularly tough, and I'd like to get feedback on opening strategies here. Custom game, fractal map (thanks lymond), I think tech-brokering is off but all other options on. (Please overlook the thread I posted on the same game in the Discussion forum. This is the right place for it.)

Screenie:

Spoiler :

I went for a Worker-warrior-settler start. As the map unfolded early, I wanted to expand quickly to block the AI, then turtle/tech/build military, take out the AI, and expand/turtle/tech some more.

My next savefile is from 2680 BC. I'm going to recreate my opening steps and post in another spoiler. In the meantime -- could I get some advice on opening moves?

 

[lymond]

Good to see you over here. I had just posted in your other thread recommending that you come here.

This is a Fractal map, by the way. Very popular map choice around here.

Ram is a good leader for making the move up.

I'd recommend teching Hunting > AH just for the fact that you have jumbos to get that extra happiness online. Hunting provides a bonus on teching AH anyway but is not always the best play if Hunt provides no immediate benefit.

War Chariots are a very powerful early UU, so if AH pops some horses nearby you may have some options there in taking out a close neighbors if there are any.

Settling on the jumbos is a possibility here. It provides an extra hammer in the center tile which will speed up your first worker and other things early. I often settle on jumbos but it sometimes depends on the land around the city. You do have corn and some hills, so I don't think it's a bad choice. However, wait until you move the warrior. I would move him south on the hill to see if there is anything worthwhile down there that would make SIP a better option. SIP is fine.

After AH, I would consider BW to start some chopping of workers/settlers/wonders then maybe going after Oracle for possible Metal Casting and cheap forges. But some of these later decisions may be impacted by further scouting.

 

[vhhawk]

Thanks Lymond, I took your advice and put an opening screenshot in the post above.

My first step here was move the warrior 1S to the hill. It revealed this:

Spoiler :

I chose to settle in place, thinking 2 corn = GP farm.

Settling in place revealed this:

Spoiler :

Production build was worker-warrior-settler. First tech was Animal Husbandry. So far so good? Here's my event log through 2680 BC, showing my tech path and the first religions founded.

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

Yep, with the corn reveal, SIP is definitely the better option and now saves jumbos for a good production tile. I would not yet consider Thebes as a GP farm, although that doesn't mean you won't be running a couple of scientists here early with that food. I see pretty decent production here so it may be able to get a few key wonders. WWE (World Wonder Economy or Wonder Whore Economy - whichever you prefer) works nicely with Ram and the mids, primarily focusing on running Rep early and settling most of your specialists - less an academy and occasional key bulb. However, you still need to see what the land provides you before making that determination.

Not a bad starting cap, indeed.

I usually grow to size 3 and get out a couple of warriors after the worker before going settler. However, it depends on how close your neighbor is and possible barb issues. Many times I will chop out a second worker before the first settler if I have that luxury. Growing to size three allows the worker to get up some bonus tiles which will speed along the settler as well - and for you to grow on said bonus tiles.

 

[vranasm]

why no tech brokering? it will probably hurt you more then AI's (at least in the beginning where you will feel it more like problem)

edit

and huts again... T2 I discover myst from hut...

 

[lymond]

yeah...i see no point in having no tech brokering on except to make the game quite a bit more challenging.

 

[vranasm]

played to T61

too bad you didn't take Hatty i would play out it with hatty but not probably with ramsesses

Spoiler :

ok in czech we have such good saying stating something like "man thinks, but god changes" and this exactly happen.

You will very quickly realize that you are boxed in by Catherine and what it's worse she is creative.

Teching was hunting->AH. Luckilly for us we actually HAVE horses. You can guess what will continue.

Yep. I started to build settler at size 2, very rare thing where I would use such opening but the horses are too crutial for the strategy.

I settled the horses (it's probably 1 off coast, but doesn't matter, needed the food from pig and horses in 1st ring for quick rush)

We are boxed in so my scouting warrior stayed down. After me and Cathy settled their 2nd city (cathy was quicker by 2-3 turns... we were lucky definitely). Cathy came with offer which was very tough to not agree too... free worker! yay. got it around T46

with 3 workers (1 stolen, 2 self built) I chopped like hell around. Actually had rax in both cities and at T57 war ready to start the war.

Spoiler :

reasonable army on monarch with pretty overpowered unit.

the western city got razed... no point in having it, the pigs are there for horses.

then I came to capital and waited for max troops and stand against 4 archers on hill with 8 war chariots. I don't know what's with the chariots but they fight certainly much better then the proposed odds.

Spoiler :

we got 2nd capital, with reasonable amount of improvements and are block free.. soo what awaits us out there?

Spoiler :

I am curious about next strategy there is still not too late for Oracle on monarhc and I could chop it out. Monarchy seems like good target and cottage out capital...

 

[vhhawk]

Yep, with the corn reveal, SIP is definitely the better option and now saves jumbos for a good production tile. I would not yet consider Thebes as a GP farm, although that doesn't mean you won't be running a couple of scientists here early with that food. I see pretty decent production here so it may be able to get a few key wonders. WWE (World Wonder Economy or Wonder Whore Economy - whichever you prefer) works nicely with Ram and the mids, primarily focusing on running Rep early and settling most of your specialists - less an academy and occasional key bulb. However, you still need to see what the land provides you before making that determination.

Not a bad starting cap, indeed.

I usually grow to size 3 and get out a couple of warriors after the worker before going settler. However, it depends on how close your neighbor is and possible barb issues. Many times I will chop out a second worker before the first settler if I have that luxury. Growing to size three allows the worker to get up some bonus tiles which will speed along the settler as well - and for you to grow on said bonus tiles.

A second worker would have been much better at this point than a settler. I killed my economy with too many cities.

why no tech brokering? it will probably hurt you more then AI's (at least in the beginning where you will feel it more like problem)

edit

and huts again... T2 I discover myst from hut...

Ah, man. I had "no tech brokering" on from my last few Noble starts. I didn't even think about it, but you're right. That hurt me in this game.

And about the huts, I guess that's left over from my easy days. Cathy's scouts hoovered up all the goody huts but two on my start. One gave me gold, one gave me Hunting. I've been reading other Monarch threads more closely since I started this game and I see the logic in turning these off.

yeah...i see no point in having no tech brokering on except to make the game quite a bit more challenging.

I think based on your post about teching, and other things I'm reading about Archery, I see now that I delayed BW way too long. I got into a mindset of going for the quickest next tech I could get. My actual tech path was

AH -> Pottery -> Hunting (from a goody hut) -> Archery -> Mining -> BW

 

[vranasm]

I checked your thread on general forum...so i can probably talk more openly without much spoilers, because you certainly played much farther.

You should look at my save, it's T61 and I got rid of Catherine. Maybe a little bit luck was involved but those chariots are so strong even against prot leaders like WK, which I usually not try to rush with normal chariots.
Cathy had no chance basically.

Now that I know we are isolated... actually I should go for the Oracle and probably Oracle -> Monarchy, both capitals are non-coast.

there is plenty cottageable land.
The capital is prime spot with 7 grass riverside and Cathy's capital is very good one too with 3 sugar riverside (you can look at them as flood plains without -health)

Isolation is not good case for SE attempts. You should use cottages and a lot.

We can have copper, but I think we should try to avoid connecting it too soon, since we will have to tech archery for cheap archers instead of warriors (already have hunting).

Maybe will try it to play out the game after all, since it's isolation and i lack practice

 

[vhhawk]

played to T61

too bad you didn't take Hatty i would play out it with hatty but not probably with ramsesses

Dang, vranasm!!! I am noob.

I had the same idea of grabbing horses (for chariots) asap, but I made a dumb mistake. I put city#2 (Memphis) on the plains hill 2N1W of the horses and 1N2E of the pig. But I didn't research Mysticism until 1120BC so I couldn't get a border pop onto the horses. I didn't get the horses until about 475BC, and by then Cathy had expanded way up along my western coastline. That's why it was such a dogfight for me to take her out.

Thanks for the schooling.

 

[lymond]

Yep, since the cat is out of the bag as well as Czech proverbs , Cathy should be toast VERY VERY early. Once you see the culture whore that close and horses nearby, get that settler on the horses and chariots in both cities asap. It will net you a second cap like city very early.

With Cathy gone - this is pure iso. Not a bad bit of land for iso though. Good cottage land as V mentioned but I would not forget about specialist either. I might Oracle CoL for a religion, caste and then get Mono for OR. You also have stone and marble nearby for some wonders.

Yep, archery should not be teched unless absolutely necessary - it's a waste and dead end tech.

Build Mids to run Rep and get more happiness instead of Monarchy.

 

[lymond]

Ram is more than fine. Hatty is a very strong leader though.

 

[lymond]

Dang, vranasm!!! I am noob.

I had the same idea of grabbing horses (for chariots) asap, but I made a dumb mistake. I put city#2 (Memphis) on the plains hill 2N1W of the horses and 1N2E of the pig. But I didn't research Mysticism until 1120BC so I couldn't get a border pop onto the horses. I didn't get the horses until about 475BC, and by then Cathy had expanded way up along my western coastline. That's why it was such a dogfight for me to take her out.

Thanks for the schooling.

Myst needs to be one of your first techs after the initial worker techs if you are not creative or start with it. It should be timed with your first settler. However, if you are in a early rush situation, you might consider sacrificing good city placement by settling on the strat resource or right next to it. On higher levels settling on it if sometimes best to get thing going.

475BC is far too late unless you have cats.

Cathy is also IMP so she spits out settlers like mad. Best to take her out if she is that close as she will box you in anyway. Sounds like your game is not going well.


edit: I meant to add that when you are running games like this you should report much more frequently to get advice before continuing. You would have saved yourself a lot of frustration. I played out to around your date and have the whole island covered in Egyptian cities while heading to Lib.

 

[vhhawk]

Vranasm's way: Cathy is wiped out in 1560 BC.
Vhhawk's way: Cathy is wiped out in 1300 AD.

I'm going to play out my current game until I get squashed, wait a few days to forget some stuff then return to the original save and replay it using these ideas and strategies.

Thanks for the great help.

@lymond -- I'll do a concurrent play on my next Monarch game, thanks for the suggestion. My original goal in posting for help on this one was to find out if I just had a bad start or if I had made it bad in my gameplay. Question answered!!

 

[lymond]

Will keep an eye out for your next game

 

[vranasm]

@lymond

have a question on you in this game. Played out to T109, popped second great person,

I went with the Oracle->CoL+Mids gambit, it's paying dividends. Took out later mono

first was GP prophet (great!) - I have holy shrine with looking at 10-11 cities on mainland and eventually have to send something for some islands around.
Still don't have sailing, I am on big push for CS.

How would you use the 2nd GP which is Scientist. I can't bulb Philo, the detour is 6 turns for getting Alpha.
I can settle him for 11 direct bpt, or made academy. I am inclined for academy.

Next GP should be 16T, I should get another GS then and i hope that Taoism will be still open.

what you think?

Spoiler :

 

[TheMeInTeam]

1905 Space

Spoiler :

Settled in place. Cathy was very near us and we're in semi-iso; good cities with her alive are a lot more rare than with her dead. Horse was easy to settle, and so the war chariot rush commenced. After that picked up monarchy for HR and spammed cottages + settlements until eventually I won.

 

[lymond]

I pretty fond of the academy and with rep/caste, it should be more the worth it. Plus, it will help you get the techs you need faster when you next GP pops.

 

[michmbk]

I shadowed this too - I decided I'm going to use this as my practice run of trying TMIT's late nuke/sub/paratrooper strategy, which is not one I've ever used before. Had to quit for tonight at around 1800 - will have to finish tomorrow.

Spoiler :

This was obviously a no-brainer - chariots were up and running so fast...

2 workers chopping and a whip or two -fastest chariot rush i think I've ever pulled off. Usual stuff from there, expanding & wonderspamming with Ramesses, stuff like this:

All the aesthetics line stuff (including music/sistine), beelined astro to find everyone else was backwards - lots of warring going on. This is unusual to find after meeting everyone when isolated:

Obviously, lib was mine:

With Mausoleum, I used Taj & 3 great people for a 36 turn golden age where I flew ahead in tech. Headed to communism so I could settle the other two islands with SP, which I did. I could have easily gone culture or space if I wanted, but thought it might be interesting to try the nuke/paratrooper strategy. I've got a strong hammer economy, and tech isn't bad thanks to settled specialist/wonder capital - here's the production power (still have factories to come):

Will be interested to see how this goes...

 

[vhhawk]

I shadowed this too - I decided I'm going to use this as my practice run of trying TMIT's late nuke/sub/paratrooper strategy, which is not one I've ever used before. Had to quit for tonight at around 1800 - will have to finish tomorrow.

Wow. I just shake my head at the effortless way you guys pull these things off. I'm not sure I'll ever get there, as I seem to be at an age where I forget more than I remember. But I'm enjoying the effort of tryiing. I continued on with my original start, not expecting to win but curious to see how long I could last. As of 1976 the most advanced AI is going to launch his spaceship and I won't be able to stop it, though the biggest AI could possibly beat him with a Diplo win using the UN I built. I made some noise with nukes but it was yet another misplayed hand and ultimately too little, too late. I'll move on to something else for a while to forget this one a bit, then come back and try it again.

I'm curious if you guys who have played this think that it could be won without the early chariot rush.