My Immortal 1

[CivNoobie]

i'll keep an eye on this game so I can compared it with mine to see how i progress

i do think that pangea maps are easier to manage than fractal

 

[pomthom]

i'll keep an eye on this game so I can compared it with mine to see how i progress

Maybe you should shadow it, everything is too different in each game for comparison

 

[Patchface]

Patchface so your saying I should've cottaged FP in capitol instead of farming it? Food > commerce early game, right? It allowed faster units, faster cities...it can be changed later to a cottage. Looking at it now, it's freaking Immortal and I'm already paying for units & will have problems even with teching Writing! So maybe you're right, maybe I should've go commerce before production..
Edit: Could you attach a save of your game? To compare when I get to 1AD?

IMO you are playing a pretty tight game so far and I see no glaring flaws. I don't really have any suggestions for you, sorry Note: I'm not a total pro at Immortal. I mainly just posted as a comparison I guess. 1 AD Music, about to settle my 8th city, sort of a benchmark I guess. I'll post the save when I get home in a few hours.

edit: Posting save

 

[pomthom]

To 1880 BC (turn 53) and only... 2 cities

Sorry if it's a bit sketchy, did this in a rush!
(will upload save later tonight)

The action:

Spoiler :

Turn 2: I settle on the same spot as Dubioza and start on a Worker.

I also start on BW.

Turn 14: Worker > Warrior in cap.

Worker starts farming Corn.

BTW recently my military units always start as if I had Alt+clicked them (infinite build), does any one know where this is coming from?

Spoiler :

One of the crucial difference between Dubioza's and my game is exploration. I didn't see KW borders (because not paying attention probably) and circumnavigated north/east rather than South like Dub + lost my Warrior to a freakin lion:



So I didn't end up stumbling upon a Korean Worker to steal, nor did I see the Corn to my West where Dub settled her second city, nor the plains Cows North West of the Spices... Basically nothing that enticed me to settle West. Changes a lot

Turn 17: BW is in. Instant revolt (I'd rather lose a turn un-optimally now than forget I didn't switch later and screw up my timing )

My plan is to go TW > Pottery, even if I plan to settle my second city 1S of the Sheep (mined) with shared Corn.

Turn 19: Worker finishes Corn and moves on to farm southern FP:



I am still Warriorless.

I grow the cap until the FP is farmed then I start on a Settler working 2 improved tiles.

My Worker then moves to mine the grass hill. I adjust my timing of the Mine and my Warrior/Settler building so that I grow to size 3 the exact same turn my Mine is completed:

Spoiler :

I proceed to chop this forest into my 1st Settler/next Worker:



I also send my new Warrior East because it looks juicy and I want to fog bust and not realizing that there's no one that way and that I have all the time in the world....



Turn 35: Pottery is in. I decide I don't need AH yet so I go for Writing.

The forest is chopped so I put 1 turn of build in the Worker because I want to optimize the EXP multiplier. Is this stupid or does it make sense??



I order my Worker to build a road to City 2.

Turn 38: My Settler is finally out... I order him to go 1S of Sheep (support city for capitole cottages + immediately operational with shared Corn:



Turn 40: 2nd Worker is out. Start on Granary:



2nd Worker starts cottaging FP:



Shangai is settled:



It steals the Corn from Beijing (mean!) and start on a Warrior (infinite also) because I don't have a lot of those and Wildlings are approaching.



My Worker then proceeds to setup a Mine on the Sheep.

Beijing (size 3) is now working an unimproved tile so I 1-pop whip the Granary:



I chose to do so in a Worker to maximize OF (that EXP crap again). I think that was stupid because I don't need a 3rd Worker right now... or do I? Workers are nice (schizo pomthom)

A bit later Shangai grows to pop 2 but the Sheep-Mine is still not improved, so I 1-pop whip my Warrior into a Granary:



Turn 47: Writing is in. I open borders with everyone but forget to start roading into them...

Not sure where to go tech-wise so I chose Aesthetics... Thinking back I don't understand why I'm not going for AH.

3rd Worker is out and I start on another Warrior because will reach happy cap in Cap soon (but adjust my timing by retaking Corn to grow at the right time):







Turn 51: Granary is completed in City 2. Start on a Settler:



Trying to fog-bust the Eastern land. It's good! (the land I mean lol) A sketchy dot-mapping:



My Warrior arrives just in time to grow above happy cap, Beijing starts on a Library:



I see now still no foreign trade routes... ("pomthom, they're not going to appear all by themselves you know!!")

See next post for current situation!

 

[pomthom]

To 1880 BC (turn 53) (suite)

Current situation:

Spoiler :

Cities​

Growing Beijing to size 6 to 3-pop whip a settler into the Library:



Shangai:

Land​

Diplo​

Wonders​

Nothing impressive...

 

[Dubioza]

BTW recently my military units always start as if I had Alt+clicked them (infinite build), does any one know where this is coming from?

Yes I had that problem too; it's in BUG Mod Options in City Screen tab - scroll down and remove:

Spoiler :

Few notes on your game:

• One extra early worker does make a lot of difference - and loosing 1. warrior too, especially with all the defensive forests around;
• If you planned to settle shared corn, you should've sent worker (after mine) in that direction to chop (1E of capitol rather then 1W), loosing extra turn moving him again toward it - or maybe even to chop city site for 10 hammers, you'd still have time to road to it - maybe that's too much though But you could've road only 1 tile to connect it;
• Chopping into worker with EXP does make sense, but it might make even more sense to chop into Granary and grow (even on one currently unimproved FP) while you still have corn in capitol?
• Workers are nice, especially with all the forests around;
• Writing before AH is better than my choice, I see that now.
• My 4 vs your 2 cities at T53 will snowball I hope, but maybe mine are too early - my research is suffering already. Will see how it goes later on!
• Do I really look like a girl?

While I'm here, I thought about it and still don't know what to do next; I came up with the dot-map:

Spoiler :

But I still don't know where to go next. Hunting and settle fur or east with gold in 2. ring? Or crabs? What to do with barb city, raze it and settle 1W (on ivory) or what? Settle one more in between Nanjing and it? Pomthom's commerce site looks mighty fine (I thought about it) but I can't incorporate other cities then in desired manner...

 

[pomthom]

"Train military units for ever"

Has a nice ring to it

 

[pomthom]

Updated my "Current Situation" post to include the save file.

Will answer some more about your last post tomorrow!

 

[pomthom]

@Dubioza

Spoiler :

Yes I had that problem too; it's in BUG Mod Options in City Screen tab - scroll down and remove

Thanks a lot (actually it probably is a BULL feature), it's the "scroll down" part that hadn't occurred to me

and loosing 1. warrior too, especially with all the defensive forests around

You don't say! Actually my fog-busting amigo was in a freakin' forest when he got attacked by Simba, it's just that he was already wounded and I thought "healing? naaaah"

If you planned to settle shared corn, you should've sent worker (after mine) in that direction to chop (1E of capitol rather then 1W), loosing extra turn moving him again toward it

Yup, well spotted

Chopping into worker with EXP does make sense, but it might make even more sense to chop into Granary and grow (even on one currently unimproved FP) while you still have corn in capitol?

Well of course, why didn't I do that? Because I'm stupid and don't think ahead enough: when I imagined what to put my chop into I was 3 turns away from Pottery and I didn't realize that by the time the chop went in I would actually be able to build the Granary

Workers are nice, especially with all the forests around

Thanks, I feel better already

My 4 vs your 2 cities at T53 will snowball I hope, but maybe mine are too early - my research is suffering already. Will see how it goes later on!

Don't know dude, my start still looks limp compared to yours I think. I should have 2 more Settlers out in 4/5 turns (3-pop whip in Cap + 1-pop Whip in Shangai) but I'm not sure where to put them (your game has got me second guessing myself!)

I'll probably get my 1st Great Dude out sooner but I'm not even sure of that

Do I really look like a girl?

LOL no not really sorry man, I don't remember what but something had me thinking that you were. Oh well

While I'm here, I thought about it and still don't know what to do next; I came up with the dot-map

Your dot-mapping looks okay and I see what you mean about my commerce city, I'm not too happy about it either. What bothers me in your city placement is that none will be able to be a strong commerce city which seems like a waste with the Gold and FPs lying around. Competition on commerce will be very very tough with 3 FIN neighbours, it could be interesting to have a second high commerce spot...

I'll have to review my dot-mapping (I haven't revealed the whole area anyway thanks to my brilliant death-by-cat exploration technique... and since when do lions fool around in forests?? I feel abused )

 

[Dubioza]

@ pomthom

About micro:

Don't even start to second guess yourself by looking at my city sites! As you can see I'm still bad in that area. As for another high commerce city I hope bureau capitol will be good enough, while ones next to gold can be some hybrid cities. I'll re-evaluate them anyways before I continue and after I settle next few cities...I just know I want satellite cities around capitol and some to grab happy resources - everything else is still undecided.
About your micro, yes little things like that I like to look ahead - although I see in my game I didn't road horses when I was there and I road grass-hill mine (I like to sometimes road hills when I'm up there) when I should've moved that worker to chop instead.

Don't know dude, my start still looks limp compared to yours I think. I should have 2 more Settlers out in 4/5 turns (3-pop whip in Cap + 1-pop Whip in Shangai) but I'm not sure where to put them (your game has got me second guessing myself!)

I'll probably get my 1st Great Dude out sooner but I'm not even sure of that.

We can't compare only by when you're ahead in and as I don't know AI's Alpha timing on Immortal, for all I know you could be ahead even if it feels like you're not. And as I still plan to settle more my research will suffer even more before it becomes better. It'll be a good lesson to compare different approaches. Sorry I have no time to play it atm, working in vineyard (trimming sauvignon is freaking exhausting). Will continue over the weekend.

You will probably get your first dude out sooner, but potentially more cities = more Libraries = more specs. Hopefully, we'll see!

 

[Patchface]

Shadow up to 1070:

Spoiler :

Picking up at Golden Age from 1AD... I ran specs and at very low odds popped a Great Prophet in my capital. So I sat on him and continued running 4 Merchants in the Gold/farmed flood plains city. Merchants instead of GS's because I was running Bureaucracy and so the gold was being multiplied through my tech-capital. Unbeknownst to me however, was that somewhere along the line one of the AI spies sabotaged my capital's library : /

GM popped about 15 turns after the GA ended, and I immediately used him (and the GP I had popped earlier) on another GA. And again, I stayed running GM's in the gold/farmed FP city (actually ran a food deficit so I could run 5 instead of 4).

Meanwhile settled my 9th city on the stone. Running CAste / Pacifism (to get the GM). Cities all around SLOW-built Barracks-Stables-Horse Archers* while GROWING. Lots of whip fodder for Curs later.

The whole time begging, trading tech, and trading resources for gold. About 1 trade per turn, maybe 1 1/2 trades per turn to finance research: Education- Liberalism (minus 1 turn), Nationalism - Gun Powder. Lib came in 1060:



Did a merchant mission in the Termple of Artemis city for 1100 gold. Traded Education to Wang for 520 more gold, and traded Edu to Incas for 520 gold. Here is most of my HA army at that point (about 6 others were scattered around giving cities happiness)


2100 gold gets you about 15 upgrades:



Ended turn and started getting my units into position while brokering a few more techs for cash:


Switched into Slavery and Theocracy, then whipped away low-yield tiles (read: sub-4) in cities like this:



Next turn, army is ready to invade the heathen Wang.

 

[pomthom]

@Patchface
Haven't looked at your shadow for the moment because you are way ahead of me, but I will!

 

[Patchface]

But I still don't know where to go next. Hunting and settle fur or east with gold in 2. ring? Or crabs? What to do with barb city, raze it and settle 1W (on ivory) or what? Settle one more in between Nanjing and it? Pomthom's commerce site looks mighty fine (I thought about it) but I can't incorporate other cities then in desired manner...

That hunting city would be more effort than its worth I think. If you want to seal off "your land" I'd settle the fish city next. Then a city between the sheep and the gold probably (sheep to feed the gold).

 

[Dubioza]

1000 BC

Spoiler :

Let's try something different, so ones not interested in micro can skip it. And it might help me to focus discussion more on macro. Plus it's faster.

In short, as I probably expanded too fast I decided to slow down further expansion and focus more on commerce. Settled 2 more cities this turn-set, in T64 and T74, both connected before settled and working improved tiles since.
I accepted Patchface's advice and skipped Hunting. Started on Aesth, binary. In T65 I noticed WK has Alpha and ~T70 put slider on 100%. I also settled almost like Patchface advised me, but not with sheep in BFC he had in mind. Cause I couldn't settle future cities like I want to or I'd have to raze barb city - I think I'll keep it, it's good enough and it saves me a settler.

Micro in Pictures:

Spoiler Images 1 :

Spoiler Images 2 :

Spoiler Images 3 :

Event Log Micro:

Spoiler Event Log :

Logging by BUG Mod 4.4 [Build 2220] (BtS 3.13-3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 58/500 (1680 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:28:56]
Beijing begins: Library (12 turns)
Research begun: Aesthetics (25 Turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 17 per turn, 1 in the bank

After End Turn:
Guangzhou grows to size 4

Turn 59/500 (1640 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:31:06]
Guangzhou begins: Library (10 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 18 per turn, 18 in the bank

After End Turn:
Beijing grows to size 5
Nanjing finishes: Worker

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Wang Kon (Korea) towards Huayna Capac (Inca), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth (England) towards Huayna Capac (Inca), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 60/500 (1600 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:32:36]
Nanjing begins: Granary (15 turns)
Beijing begins: Settler (5 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 18 per turn, 36 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Beijing
Shanghai grows to size 5

Turn 61/500 (1560 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:34:22]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 18 per turn, 54 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Shanghai
Shanghai finishes: Library
Guangzhou finishes: Worker

Turn 62/500 (1520 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:35:46]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 16 per turn, 72 in the bank

After End Turn:
Beijing finishes: Settler

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Wang Kon (Korea) towards Huayna Capac (Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth (England) towards Huayna Capac (Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 63/500 (1480 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:37:07]
A Cottage was built near Beijing
Beijing begins: Library (10 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 16 per turn, 88 in the bank

After End Turn:
Beijing finishes: Warrior
A Hamlet was built near Beijing

Turn 64/500 (1440 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:39:15]
Xian founded
Xian begins: Monument (30 turns)
A Pasture was built near Xian
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 14 per turn, 104 in the bank

Turn 65/500 (1400 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:41:21]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 14 per turn, 118 in the bank

After End Turn:
Shanghai finishes: Worker
A Hamlet was built near Beijing
Nanjing finishes: Granary

Turn 66/500 (1360 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:43:09]
Nanjing begins: Barracks (50 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 14 per turn, 132 in the bank

After End Turn:
Shanghai finishes: Warrior
Guangzhou finishes: Library
Nanjing grows to size 2

Turn 67/500 (1320 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:45:08]
A Pasture was built near Guangzhou
Shanghai begins: Worker (9 turns)
Guangzhou begins: Settler (13 turns)
Beijing begins: Settler (10 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 14 per turn, 146 in the bank

After End Turn:
Hinduism has spread: Beijing
Xian finishes: Monument

Turn 68/500 (1280 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:47:48]
Xian begins: Granary (10 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 14 per turn, 160 in the bank

After End Turn:
A Village was built near Beijing

Turn 69/500 (1240 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:49:54]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 15 per turn, 174 in the bank

After End Turn:
Nanjing grows to size 3

Turn 70/500 (1200 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:51:26]
A Cottage was built near Nanjing
A Cottage was built near Beijing
Shanghai begins: Chariot (15 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 17 per turn, 189 in the bank

After End Turn:
Shanghai grows to size 4

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Elizabeth (England) towards Wang Kon (Korea), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 71/500 (1160 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:53:49]
Diplomacy (Embargo Request): Huayna Capac (Inca) asks Dubioza (China) to stop trading with Elizabeth (England); Dubioza REFUSES.
A Mine was built near Xian
Shanghai begins: Chariot (14 turns)
100% Research: 51 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -28 per turn, 206 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Beijing
Whip anger has decreased in Shanghai
Beijing finishes: Settler
Xian grows to size 2

Turn 72/500 (1120 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:56:44]
100% Research: 52 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -29 per turn, 178 in the bank

After End Turn:
A Hamlet was built near Beijing
Nanjing grows to size 4
Nanjing finishes: Barracks

Turn 73/500 (1080 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:58:11]
Nanjing begins: Chariot (5 turns)
100% Research: 54 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -29 per turn, 149 in the bank

After End Turn:
Beijing finishes: Library
A Village was built near Beijing

Turn 74/500 (1040 BC) [25-Aug-2013 09:59:45]
Chengdu founded
A Pasture was built near Chengdu
A Mine was built near Beijing
A Mine was built near Nanjing
Beijing begins: Settler (15 turns)
Chengdu begins: Granary (10 turns)
100% Research: 63 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -33 per turn, 120 in the bank

After End Turn:
Buddhism has spread: Xian

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac (Inca) towards Wang Kon (Korea), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Wang Kon (Korea) towards Huayna Capac (Inca), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth (England) towards Huayna Capac (Inca), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 75/500 (1000 BC) [25-Aug-2013 10:04:06]
A Cottage was built near Beijing

 

[Dubioza]

1000 BC Summary:

I still haven't met anyone else but I think I've got the map layout; 4 of us are on one half of the map while other AI's have to be on west half. And passage to them is a bottleneck behind WK. Unless someone is on island(s) somewhere too...

Seeing that WK, like me, doesn't have metal yet, I could've teched HbR and WK. It's kinda late for that now, right? I still think Aesth is a good choice, unless WK will still be the only one with Alpha when I research it - I'm his worst enemy and he's not gonna trade with me. Unless I switch to his religion, I got some of it via trade routes? At least for turns required to switch back out of it, just to trade for Alpha?

Spoiler Images :

I'll get eastern gold in ~5 tuns, hopefully will trade for Alpha by then and trade Aesth around to back-fill. I think I will settle that hunting city next (when I trade for Hunting), I designated one worker to prepare for it, it's connected, both fur & deer are roaded and settler can be there in ~5 turns.
Nanjing is the only city with Barracks, but will get out some chariots from every city to take that barb city - will station them in my borders (Xian's FP) to avoid unit supply while they still can reach it in 1 turn. How many chariots will be needed for that? There are 4 archers ATM in Zhou.

I guess Doshin's plan will be hard to achieve, I already declared on WK and refused embargo request from HC...

..that's how I'd play this, as long as I could stay on good terms with Wang and HC.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

With eastern gold, barb city and horse/clams/wheat, you'll get 3 more cities. Up to 9. And then you can get some more.

That goes better with targetting economic techs than researching HBR. Currency would serve you well. Possibly Civil service beeline afterwards, too.
If you want to push through Wang, consider he has 4 cities only: he won't have many troops. However he can backfill. If you do it right, you shouldn't need to go total war on him (however a build-up is always a serious thing, but limited in time).

Macemen fare badly against Hwachas but could be a good choice regardless.
After Currency, if you can get easy access to Construction, that may be enough (Cats/swords/phants/maces).
No need to direct your research towards military techs, imho. Trades would be better.

Very good opening positioned you very well on this map

Prolly, many people would say you'd get better success teching up to the Renaissance and then invading faster, rather than slowing down your teching and warring all the way long.
If you decide to tech up, you should try to open borders with Wang and explore the land behind him. A quick coastal city might even send an exploring workboat past him if you can't OB. Missing trades with AIs you could access is never good.

 

[Dubioza]

BiC maybe you wrote it in hurry, I don't get which sites you're referring to. Eastern gold is settled & will expand borders in ~5T. Maybe you thought on gold/crab/wheat? Horse/clams/wheat as you said can be on PH or 1S of it - I think with clam/horses in 1. ring is best spot?

One could be 2N1E of wheat and other further 3E, with clam/stone in 2. ring. I think clam/horses in 1. ring and then on the stone might be better, even if city on the stone might be worse?

Spoiler clam/horses in 1. ring :

Spoiler 2N1E of wheat :

Yes I think I'll have to go to Currency, I have enough cities for Currency to be best option. As soon as I can get Alpha. I thought I had time to WK if I went HbR instead Aesth. CS will be helpful a lot as well, my weird settling made few of my cities to beg for it!

It's hard to predict for me what'll happen after that but if I want to push through WK I'm sure some option will present itself - hopefully I won't miss it. Thanks yes I think your right, something like Currency-CoL-CS might be best.

And thanks for exploring workboat idea, I don't know if I'd think of that! Weird map for Pangaea, but I like it!

What happened with Immortal University? Both Bullpen and last IU99 went silent after July 25. with no clue what's going on?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

BiC maybe you wrote it in hurry

That's right
I didn't get the 5T you mentioned referred to border pops. I thought you had a settler travelling to the gold that isn't settled... and you'd settle in 5T.
In any case, yes, 3 more (good) cities are waiting for you in the East.


The IU has been inactive for a while. Hosts have stopped hosting
Maybe too many people have said: "Noez! Immortal is too easy, the game isn't even funny!" Trashing the game has its downsides.

 

[Patchface]

Dubioza, are you going to run any specialists?

 

[Dubioza]

..or maybe I wrote it in hurry.

Too bad for IU, I really hope they continue! If not, I'll start diggin'up old ones, they're surely worth playing!

Patchface Yes I plan to run specs, in all cities that will be able to run them; first I need few more settlers/workers, then grow them a bit so:

-satellite cities can work capitol shared cottages and specs;
-others can work good tiles and some specs and still have +food surplus.

I'd like to cottage gold/FP's city and have bureau capitol as science + that gold/FP's city as commerce - everything else will be farmed. Need to find GP farm too, thanks for reminding me. I need to re-read some articles about hybrid economy, I'm sure I'm missing something.