My proposal for a new leader for Germany

[Henri Christophe]

Germans are the people who speak germanic language, that mean even you, north americans, are germans of some extend.
That is the why is so controversial Frederick Barbarrosa leading Germany, because leave the question, What Germany is?

 

[Zaarin]

Germans are the people who speak germanic language, that mean even you, north americans, are germans of some extend.

No, Germanic people speak Germanic languages. German people speak German. Having a "Germanic" civilization would be absurd, just like including a "Romance" civilization or a "Semitic" civilization. There's more to a civilization than what language they speak, and much more than what language family their language is from. Dutch is not particularly closely related to German, incidentally, despite their similar appearance.

 

[Evie]

There are Germans living outside Germany too, and some other Germans have other civs as Neederlands. If Frederick Barbarosa is already king of all Germany, why the Dutch have their own civ? *White privilege*


Okay, I agree is cooler the name of the Civilization be Guarani, but some of Unique Features can be also from Paraguayan history, as the units from Paraguayan war or the Airplanes used in the war against Bolivia. This interpretation of Guarani history fit very well among Paraguayans historians but this community is more Germanic would disagree with me for sure.

I think the Civ should be called Guarani. Paraguayan History being integrated works, but I doubt the planes you're talking about are that notable as a Guarani/Paraguay thing.

As for the Dutch: please just...don't, Henri. On the Americas you have some good points (mostly the Guarani thing), but on Europe you're really just...off.

Austria (actually speaks German - not a germanic language- , politically part of the German realm until the Napoleonic wars (and during World War II), continued contesting Prussia for political preponderance in Germany until well into Bismarck's time) can (and should IMO) be considered part of the German civilization.

The Netherlands (do not speak German, just another germanic language, haven't been part of Germany since Charles V, fought an 80 years war to free themselves of Habsurg control) cannot reasonably be.

EDIT: if German includes Dutch, let alone English, Old Norse or Swedish (all Germanic) then by that standard Cree include everything from Cheyenne to Powhattan (all Algonquian languages).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

There are Germans living outside Germany too, and some other Germans have other civs as Neederlands. If Frederick Barbarosa is already king of all Germany, why the Dutch

I'll just leave this right here. This probably explains how Dutch people feel about being called German.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I'll just leave this right here. This probably explains how Dutch people feel about being called German.

Wilhelmina

• Alexander's Hetaroi
• Jan 12, 2018

She does have a nice eye poker in her hands. Pretty useful for getting rid of German soldiers.

 

[Zaarin]

She does have a nice eye poker in her hands. Pretty useful for getting rid of German soldiers.

More dangerous is the withering look she gives them when they won't trade with her.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

. . . Dutch is not particularly closely related to German, incidentally, despite their similar appearance.

Except in Pennsylvania, USA.
A large percentage of the early settlers west of Philadelphia were German Mennonites (a variant of which were the Amish that are still there today) and other 'dissenting' religious groups that found a friendlier home there than in other colonies like Virginia (Church of England) or Massachusettes (Puritans). They were collectively known as the Pennsylvania Germans, or Pennsylvania Deutsch (or Deitsch, another Germanic word like Dutch or Deutsch), which English speakers promptly changed to Pennsylvania Dutch. So, at least in York and Lancaster Counties of Pennsylvania, Dutch, Deutsch and Deitsch are all the same people speaking the same language - although most of the Amish speak a Germanic language related more closely to Alsatian or Swiss German than anything spoken in Germany

 

[Evie]

Mind you, regardless of who they were the Pennsylvania Dutch DEFINITELY don't belong in Civ.

Before anyone gets any idea about this latest piece of cool historical trivia.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Except in Pennsylvania, USA.
A large percentage of the early settlers west of Philadelphia were German Mennonites (a variant of which were the Amish that are still there today) and other 'dissenting' religious groups that found a friendlier home there than in other colonies like Virginia (Church of England) or Massachusettes (Puritans). They were collectively known as the Pennsylvania Germans, or Pennsylvania Deutsch (or Deitsch, another Germanic word like Dutch or Deutsch), which English speakers promptly changed to Pennsylvania Dutch. So, at least in York and Lancaster Counties of Pennsylvania, Dutch, Deutsch and Deitsch are all the same people speaking the same language - although most of the Amish speak a Germanic language related more closely to Alsatian or Swiss German than anything spoken in Germany

Great historical facts, but we're not arguing about that. We're arguing about the Dutch being either German or not German. Your thoughts?

 

[Henri Christophe]

Dutch are as Lienchstein a German nation who survive the anexation of the second reich and still a free country.

 

[Zaarin]

Dutch are as Lienchstein a German nation who survive the anexation of the second reich and still a free country.

Of course they are. Just like everyone from East Asia is Chinese.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Of course they are. Just like everyone from East Asia is Chinese.

And just like everyone in Iberia is Spanish. Or how everyone from the Middle East is Jewish.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Great historical facts, but we're not arguing about that. We're arguing about the Dutch being either German or not German. Your thoughts?

They do not speak the same language any more than Spaniards and Rumanians do
They do not identify themselves as the other
They have had very different political, military, cultural and economic histories and developments
They are both examples of Homo Sapiens Sapiens living in Europe.

One similarity out of four is not enough to make them the same, or even that similar compared to the various 'German' groups like Prussians, Saxons, Bavarians, Rhinelanders - or the Alsatian and Swiss German-speakers I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[Evie]

Liechtenstein: Speaks German, the german langauge.
Netherlands: Speaks Dutch, not the german language.

Yes, Dutch and German belong to the same language family, but by that standard, French, Portuguese, Spanish and Latin are ALSO the same language family, and I don't hear you saying that Brazil and Gran Colombia are part of the French civilization (or the Roman one). Language families are irrelevant, which leaves Dutch and German separate languages.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Liechtenstein: Speaks German,

They also speak their own language, a sort of dialect of Deutsch, as Dutch.

Neederlands was strong enouth to don't be anexed by the 2nd reich, but in first reich they was under Frederick realm, exactly as Lienchstein.

 

[Zaarin]

They also speak their own language, a sort of dialect of Deutsch, as Dutch.

For the love of...Please familiarize yourself with the West Germanic family tree and note that German and Dutch aren't even in the same subfamily. Dutch is as much a dialect of German as Portuguese is a dialect of Romanian. Except Portuguese and Romanian are still more closely related. And no, Lichtenstein does not have its own language; Lichtenstein speaks a dialect of German.

 

[Evie]

And Portugal was under Philippe II, and Spain AND France AND England AND Egypt AND Phoenicia were all under Trajan, and Greece AND Egypt AND Persia And Babylon AND Sumeria under Alexander, and Scotland AND India AND Australia AND Canada AND Maori were under Victoria, and...

You're again creating completely unsustainable criteria (like language families) just to justify getting to your desired end result. It's utter nonsense.

 

[aieeegrunt]

Ok, if we can get back on topic after that whatever-aboo derail....

Bismarck’s big, big thing was stability, both home and internationally. I mean we are talking about a Junker, and they don’t come anymore conservative (I should know I come from a Junker family), and Bismarck championed a lot of worker’s rights and benefits legislation because it promoted social stability

So Bismarck’s leader ability should reflect that

I would call it Iron Chancellor

+4 Loyalty and 150% Loyalty Pressure for every city with a govenor

Germany gets an extra diplomatic card slot (instead of a Military one)

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Ok, if we can get back on topic after that whatever-aboo derail....

Bismarck’s big, big thing was stability, both home and internationally. I mean we are talking about a Junker, and they don’t come anymore conservative (I should know I come from a Junker family), and Bismarck championed a lot of worker’s rights and benefits legislation because it promoted social stability

So Bismarck’s leader ability should reflect that

I would call it Iron Chancellor

+4 Loyalty and 150% Loyalty Pressure for every city with a govenor

Germany gets an extra diplomatic card slot (instead of a Military one)

I feel as if Bismarck should have something to do with City-State annexation. He wasn't known as the unifier of Germany for nothing, you know.

 

[Zaarin]

I feel as if Bismarck should have something to do with City-State annexation. He wasn't known as the unifier of Germany for nothing, you know.

He largely did it diplomatically by instigating foreign invaders (or invasions), though, rather than through outright conquest. City-state conquest is better left to Freddy.