My suggestions for the new RFCDoC

Have you actually tried playing as Russia and going for the UHV? How were you able to tech to Urban Planning by 1550 and build St. Basil's?
Urban Planning is definitely too late tech for St. Basil's Cathedral. This tech is clearly later than real time when this wonder was built (in case of Russia, Urban Planning is clearly a XVIIIth century tech historically, with St. Petersburg being the first regularly planned and built city, with other following only from second half of the century). St. Basils probably should become available with Logistics, as it was built to commemorate victorious siege and conquest of Kazan, that invlolved quite novel strategical logistics in Russian military history.
 
@Nikas Kunitz I've been eagerly following this very rigorous, artisanal thread and just have to pay my compliments to your overall craftsmanship and presentation, specifically in the domain of Formatting. 🏆

I certainly intend to contribute further if input is desired, for now I'd only say you fair dinkum (that's Australian for "truly") my mind on ideas for Iberia that I've been playing around with. I've been procrastinating sharing them for months and now I don't have to!

PS - I consider it a crime that you've been deprived of Blue Marble Terrain until now. Enjoy.
 
@Nikas Kunitz I've been eagerly following this very rigorous, artisanal thread and just have to pay my compliments to your overall craftsmanship and presentation, specifically in the domain of Formatting. 🏆

I certainly intend to contribute further if input is desired, for now I'd only say you fair dinkum (that's Australian for "truly") my mind on ideas for Iberia that I've been playing around with. I've been procrastinating sharing them for months and now I don't have to!

PS - I consider it a crime that you've been deprived of Blue Marble Terrain until now. Enjoy.
Aww, thank you. Not sure, though, what you meant by formatting, as, I suppose, many of visitors of this thread likely won't read all these walls of text I make, and I understand why.
Nice to see fellow personal modmodmoders like myself (if understood right what you meant by playing around with Iberia)!
Not sure what you meant in last section. Isn't current terrain graphic the Blue Marble one? Regardless, I don't see any problems with terrain graphics.
 
Some nice screenshots from two last austoplay test.
First: Rus settles its first cities (don't worry, Poland settled Warsaw later) and Rus on its peak.
Spoiler First autoplay :

1734090761727.png

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Second: 1370s. With Mongols invading and crushing the Rus, conquering eastern half of its cities, Poland(-Lithuania) starts to grab cities of western Rus. Russia spawned in 1472 in North-Eastern Rus, but Poland-Lithuania firmly kept its Ruthenian territories for centuries (even more eastwards, ahistorically controlling Kharkov, llikely captured from Russia who settled it). Screenshot is from year around 1560. Not exactly perfect Russian city placement (should had been Nizhny Novgorod instead of Saratov, but it was settled later). Also there's problem of neither Rus nor Russia really wanting to settle cities to the north, in taiga and tundra.
Spoiler Second autoplay :

1734091051898.png

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walls of text
Nah, not walls. Picket fences, maybe? 😅
fellow personal modmodmoders
TBF I'm a play-tester rather than modmoder. My capabilities don't extend far beyond moving the WorldBuilder pieces. To me Python is an actual snake.

Isn't current terrain graphic the Blue Marble one?
Disregard. I saw a few that looked Vanilla and totally overlooked the other 90% that look very much BlueMarble.

Anyway, here's one of my Iberia experiments. To be clear my organizing goal is only to "rescue" Spain and address the game balance *without* disturbing Leoreth's design vision, so you'll see my touches are relatively light. Most impactful were moving starting plot to Madrid/Valladolid and stole the Andalusian horses. A few minor things were shuffled around and this pic represents one of a few different editions. I've also messed with giving Spain Fortification or Machinery on birth. Note: this autoplay was not a typical case; the general trend with various changes has more resembled previous versions in which Spain doesnt ultimately succeed until the Conqueror event. circa 1200.

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The unique power of Russia civ.
Good old General Winter got replaced by the Power of Hardship. There certainly was a lot of hardship in Russian history. However, with its actual effects, unhappiness from hurrying and drafting applying to your happiest city, I have several points of criticism. First, and shortly, gameplay-wise. As I understand, "happiest city" refers, first of all, to Moscow and, after it, to other older core cities of Central Russia. Actively using this UP will inevitably hinder happiness and growth of Moscow, that should quickly become one of largest cities in Europe, and later, in the World, along with other developed cities of Central Russia, where population of Russia historically concentrated. Also, this UP prioritises building of happiness buildings in Moscow and other cities, instead of building more historically vital buildings (Russia isn't exactly famous for some widespread leisure buildings, like Western European cafés, restaurants, operas etc) and units. Finally, hurrying and drafting are rather specific mechanics, not so universally or historically accurately used, especially by computer player. There are some periods in Russian history that had certain hurrying-like policies, but otherwise it is not something inherent to Russian history. Other point is, atleast as it is (and likely will be), hurrying is tied up with Despotism (that really should be renamed to more neutral and universal term Autocracy). In turn, this leads to how civic system should be in DoC, that is under discussion at the moment (I'll publish my ideas for civic system some time later, maybe in a month). And, finally, that leads us to another important topic…

I hope whoever reads all what is written below will be rewarded atleast with better knowledge of Russian history.
Despotism/Autocracy "civic" and Russian history.
Despite common views and stereotypes, often shared even by part of Russians themselfs (that in turn leads to accepting our current political regime as something historically inevitable and normal), autocracy is not some inherent characteristic of historical Russian statehood, whose forms of government and regime changed and varied considerably over course of Russian history. For atleast some breaking up of these stereotypes, especially for Westerners, I would recommend this video (there are some things I disagree with, but generally it is good). History of Russian statehood usually is broken up into several periods (like, Principalities, Tsardom, Empire, Soviet Union and current), so talking about autocracy can be divided into said periods.

With current starting date of 1263, there's least historical reason for Muscovite Russia to start with autocracy. During that time, Muscovy was a feudal monarchy with quite limited monarchical power. Though that period (XIV-early XVth century) saw rise of late feudal monarchies of Muscovy and Lithuania, when previous allodial princely domains of Rus era were gradually replaced by granted land estates with atleast some service expected in return (one of main reason of rise of Muscovy into Russia was its effective establishment of this feudal service system, while Lithuania, with Poland, eventually went into opposite direction with feudal estates again turning into allodial private domains). Development from feudal Muscovite to more centralised Russian monarchy became evident only in second half of XVth century, that is again represented by later starting date.

With suggested 1472 starting date, centralised Russian state (Tsardom) appeared. This period of pre-Peter Russian Tsardom is usually especially affected by stereotypes of "despotic Muscovy", that is quite different from reality. Main source of these stereotypes is the reign of the most famous monarch of this period, Ivan IV the Terrible, with his infamous despotic tendencies. The thing is that Ivan IV actually broke the system that existed both before and after him, when, during the terrible second half of his reign he tried to gain absolute power atleast in half of Russian Tsardom, establishing oprichnina lands in opposition to zemshchina where previous government-bureaucracy continued to rule, effectively plunging Russia into a civil war (this, in turn, devastated and destabilised Russia and later led to the Time of Troubles). Except for this 20 year period, both before and after Russian Tsardom's form of government is essentially represented by Monarchy civic, as power of the monarchs was limited. First of all, there was Boyar Duma council, that mostly included aristocrats (along with new bureaucrats) who formerly ruled other Rus principalities and agreed to exchange their feudal souvereignty in small principalities, that were integrated into Muscovite domain, for position in the new Muscovite Russian ruling elite and bureaucracy. One of reasons why Muscovy succeeded was this policy of integration of other Rurikid Rus princes and their domains into new centralised state, where these princes received new ruling positions as boyars. Though losing their previous feudal domains, boyars still represented co-unity of these territories as part of new centralised Russia, and without consent of the Boyar Duma Muscovite Russian monarch could not declare and set new laws, orders and policies, or declare war and peace. Later, during positive first half of Ivan IV's reign (when he was influenced by wise statesmen instead of personally loyal rascals), proper medieval parliament of the estates emerged - Zemsky Sobor ("gathering of the land" compare German "Landtag"), where representatives of aristocracy (both hereditary and service), of clergy (Orthodox Church) and of cities (leading influential merchant families) and sometimes even of free peasantry (vast majority of peasants remained personally free and untied to the land in this period) assembled. Zemsky Sobor existed to set consent and agreement between the monarch's state and the land's (country's) estates, that represented different social groups and interests. Meetings of Zemsky Sobor were less regular than permanent Boyar Duma, but without this parliament's consent Monarch&Boyar Duma could not set most important policies, like promulgating new code of laws. Zemsky Sobor actually was ruling authority during the end and after the Time of Troubles, when it, with almost full representation of Russian population, chose Michael Theodovich of Romanov boyar family as the new Tsar and Sovereign of Russia. In following decades Zemsky Sobor was assembled and ruled almost permanently as the main legitimasing institute for restored centralised Russian state under new dynasty. In second half of XVIIth century, as new dynasty monarchical power was firmly established, and personal bureaucratic office of the Tsar became more effective than Zemsky Sobor and Boyar Duma, these institutions became more and more formal and honourable than ruling, until they were finally abolished during Peter the Great's reign in early XVIIIth century, just like absolute monarchies supplanted older medieval parliaments in most other European states, like in France.

Russian Empire and definitive turn to absolute monarchy. Peter the Great had done many great reforms. In regards to state system, he ultimately abolished traditional Boyar Council and Zemsky Sobor, replacing them with the Senate, that was composed of few members chosen by monarch. Definitive state apparatus was established with bureaucracy and governors exercising absolute power of the monarch from capital to provinces. Monarch also got absolute power over succession, freely choosing the heir (that theoretically could be whoever, even a peasant. After falling out with and executing his eldest son, Peter the Great died without naming a heir, leading to period of palace coups that dominated most of XVIIIth century. Right after Peter I's death Russian throne passed to his mistress and wife Catherine I, who was daughter of a tavern-keeper from Livonia), ending influence and conflicts between aristocratic families that previously provided wifes for tsars and heirs. While older para-democratic institutes were abolished and monarch got absolute power, that should be understood as final centralisation of state as an universal authority, supplanting older traditional local authorities, like feudal domains and cities. Alongside absolute power, Peter the Great also brought ideas of common good, public welfare and state interest, that served as new ideas of legitimacy (that in decades led to emergence of republicanism in Russia) and augmented older ideas of divine right and dynastic ownership. New absolutist state was very effective for its time, especially enabling huge standing army and fleet, but soon became more and more dominated by new aristocracy that held positions in bureaucracy and military, who effectively turned this imperial state into repressive apparatus that guarded their own interests, especially their landlord rights over land property and serfs.
Thus, there's much more reason to adopt despotism/autocracy to represent absolutist Russian Empire than any earlier Russian form of statehood. That is, if only despotism/autocracy represents European absolute monarchies of XVIII-XIXth centuries. If Russian Empire is represented with despotism/autocracy, so definitely should be Prussia, Denmark-Norway and other notably absolute monarchies of the era.

Finally, Soviet state. From its creation, Soviet state was intended as a democracy, specifically ensuring rule of working majority of people, without domination of private and corporate interests of the minority of owners and companies (as often it was and is in Western liberal democracies). However, from start Soviet state faced existential threats and need to implement radical reforms, starting from the Civil war, rapid reconstruction after it, rapid bone-breaking collectivisation and industrialisation in 30s, WWII and German invasion, rapid reconstruction after it, new global confrontation of the Cold war with a threat of it turning hot. This all, along with Leninist idea of the party as vanguard of the working class, led to strong centralisation and concentration of power under Communist party rule, that initially wasn't as undemocratic as it became later. During Stalin power was further consolidated in the Politburo of him and his close associates, over Communist party (ranks of which regularly were purged to ensure "loyalty and effectiveness"), but that was reversed after him, and party elites dominated Soviet state well until its demise. That is, despotism/autocracy civic fits optimally for Stalinist era, while other periods also can be correctly represented by it. Moreover, that's mostly during Stalinist era that we can see policies similar to Civ's hurrying mechanic. However, it also possible to see Soviet Union with democracy civic, as it nominally was and intended to be.

I hope all this highlightened my point, that despotism/autocracy, and certain "hurrying" are not something inherent to all of Russian history and do not define Russia "as a civ".

Next I'll write my, rather simple, suggestion for Russian UP.
 
Nah, not walls. Picket fences, maybe? 😅

TBF I'm a play-tester rather than modmoder. My capabilities don't extend far beyond moving the WorldBuilder pieces. To me Python is an actual snake.


Disregard. I saw a few that looked Vanilla and totally overlooked the other 90% that look very much BlueMarble.

Anyway, here's one of my Iberia experiments. To be clear my organizing goal is only to "rescue" Spain and address the game balance *without* disturbing Leoreth's design vision, so you'll see my touches are relatively light. Most impactful were moving starting plot to Madrid/Valladolid and stole the Andalusian horses. A few minor things were shuffled around and this pic represents one of a few different editions. I've also messed with giving Spain Fortification or Machinery on birth. Note: this autoplay was not a typical case; the general trend with various changes has more resembled previous versions in which Spain doesnt ultimately succeed until the Conqueror event. circa 1200.

View attachment 712044
The screenshots without bluemarble terrain are from my experiments with CivilizationsReborn modmod some years ago.

Nice experiments! I also considered moving Spain's capital one tile north, but as you have seen, there's now possibility to make perfectly historical start for Spain, as the Kingdom of Leon. Today I finally dared to change start dates, and Spain now starts in 910 with more techs and units.
 
My suggestion for the unique power of the Russia civ.
With describing historical and gameplay problems I see regarding current Russian UP, and keeping General Winter on honorary pension, I want to suggest other UP, that is rather simple and will be effective passively throughout Russian playthrough, both by human and computer player.

Russia is the biggest country in the World… I suppose you already guessed what UP going to be about.

UP: Power of Gathering the/of Lands. Nickname-title "Gatherer of lands" was first, and usually is, applied to Muscovite rulers, particularly Ivan III, regarding their gradual acquisition and centralisation of numerous Rus principalities under Muscovite rule. Later, this title often became applied to later Russian rulers, who kinda continued this expansion outside older Rus territories, making Russia bigger and bigger from decade to decade, all the way to Pacific ocean, Poland and Persia. Finally, this nickname is often applied to Russia itself, as a huge state that gathered together enormous lands with different peoples and cultures.
Effects: acquiring new unclaimed land tile costs half (or even quarter) of culture cost needed for it. This will help Russia quickly expand its territory over generally hard culture-resistant terrain, like forests, hills and tundra, especially in Siberia, while it should not apply to tiles that already are controlled by other civs. Evenmore, I think this UP can also let Russian cities can expand to fourth culture ring, that is limited to third in RFCDoC otherwise. This, along with lower culture expansion cost, will enable Russia to control vast territories, especially of Siberia, with fewer not really cultured cities.
 
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I think better civic for representing Soviet Union, especially late one (after 1956) is state party. It's espionage bonus could represent how it was hard to spy it and how it stole technologies and description of this civic says much about that it was system in this country.
 
Yeah, I think there was some objection to the new UP, in particular that combined with the UB it makes Russia into the designated Despotism (and Drafting) civ. I tend to agree that both together is a bit much.

One counterpoint though is that even with those Despotism might not be the optimal civic forever. Elective was useful in the early game on the old map (though it's been nerfed - I haven't really checked what it's worth now), and State Party (which in my mind represents among other things stuff like Democratic Centralism) is very powerful for Russia because it has so many cities. Russia also has the potential to be a production powerhouse so Despotism becomes comparatively less useful.
 
I think better civic for representing Soviet Union, especially late one (after 1956) is state party. It's espionage bonus could represent how it was hard to spy it and how it stole technologies and description of this civic says much about that it was system in this country.
Well, I think State Party civic for great part was added and designed to represent Soviet Union.
 
Yeah, I think there was some objection to the new UP, in particular that combined with the UB it makes Russia into the designated Despotism (and Drafting) civ. I tend to agree that both together is a bit much.

One counterpoint though is that even with those Despotism might not be the optimal civic forever. Elective was useful in the early game on the old map (though it's been nerfed - I haven't really checked what it's worth now), and State Party (which in my mind represents among other things stuff like Democratic Centralism) is very powerful for Russia because it has so many cities. Russia also has the potential to be a production powerhouse so Despotism becomes comparatively less useful.
Exactly, as I also noted, hurrying and drafting mechanics are rather specific mechanics. And yes, Russia pretty much has no problems with production with all its forests, hills and mineral resources. What do you think about UP I suggest?
 
Nice experiments! I also considered moving Spain's capital one tile north, but as you have seen, there's now possibility to make perfectly historical start for Spain, as the Kingdom of Leon. Today I finally dared to change start dates, and Spain now starts in 910 with more techs and units.
The Leon pitch wasnt without merit for sure, but Leoreth has stated earlier in this thread (among other places and times) that there will be no changes to landmasses, so we can't use that premise as a basis for discussion. At least; that is, with reference to official mod releases, which seems to be consistent with your intent. If I've misunderstood and you're laying the groundwork for an independent submod, I withdraw my comments.

Butttttt while we're on the topic I feel like getting into some historical-meta-stuff for funzies and make the a more strident case for the Valladolid tile as the best overall compromise for the capital of Spain as a Civilization in the context of the game and its limitations. It ties the peninsular phase as the seat of the Crowns of Castile/Leon, hosted the most fateful union of the Catholic Monarchs, and can reasonably due to map constraints be head-cannoned into Madrid as the later imperial seat. 1E would work for me as an alternative tile as well if this were a serious discussion. Either solve the grating unworked tile problem. Lastly, it just feels that a proper DoC Spanish capital should be on a hill for some reason I can't quite identify. 🏰 By all means mull these things over but know that I don't intend to pursue this flight of fancy much further. Also, gameplay wise, all this elaborate map-shuffling might be unnecessary and its just a matter of "fixing" AI Spain's present inclination to go full Leeroy on the first turn possible.
 
I'm pretty sure the typical translation uses both, i.e. Gathering of the Lands.
Ah, sure, true.
But it feels, atleast for me, that there's small meaning variation between the three variants.
"Gathering the lands" - gathering some undetermined (Rus or other) lands that are intended to be gathered.
"Gathering of lands" - gathering various (completely random, just what lies nearby) lands without some inner "intendness" to be gathered.
"Gathering of the lands" - gathering of specifically determined (i.e. Rus) lands, exlcuding other, undetermined lands, not intended to be gathered.
So, I think, either of the first two, pehaps the first one, serves better to convey more universal meaning that is intended in the name of UP, not only about Rus lands, but also about all lands Russia is intended to gather ingame.
 
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Exactly, as I also noted, hurrying and drafting mechanics are rather specific mechanics. And yes, Russia pretty much has no problems with production with all its forests, hills and mineral resources. What do you think about UP I suggest?
I like it, it has a clear strategic and even greater aesthetic justification. I remember on the old map where my Russia ended up looking rather snake-like because I only bothered settling Siberia to the extant that I needed it for the UHV.
 
The Leon pitch wasnt without merit for sure, but Leoreth has stated earlier in this thread (among other places and times) that there will be no changes to landmasses, so we can't use that premise as a basis for discussion. At least; that is, with reference to official mod releases, which seems to be consistent with your intent. If I've misunderstood and you're laying the groundwork for an independent submod, I withdraw my comments.

Butttttt while we're on the topic I feel like getting into some historical-meta-stuff for funzies and make the a more strident case for the Valladolid tile as the best overall compromise for the capital of Spain as a Civilization in the context of the game and its limitations. It ties the peninsular phase as the seat of the Crowns of Castile/Leon, hosted the most fateful union of the Catholic Monarchs, and can reasonably due to map constraints be head-cannoned into Madrid as the later imperial seat. 1E would work for me as an alternative tile as well if this were a serious discussion. Either solve the grating unworked tile problem. Lastly, it just feels that a proper DoC Spanish capital should be on a hill for some reason I can't quite identify. 🏰 By all means mull these things over but know that I don't intend to pursue this flight of fancy much further. Also, gameplay wise, all this elaborate map-shuffling might be unnecessary and its just a matter of "fixing" AI Spain's present inclination to go full Leeroy on the first turn possible.
I can't see how changing landmasses and changing starting plot and date of Spain are directly intervined.
I hope for eventual inclusion of my suggestions, but if not, I might turn it into a modmod (though I don't have enough coding skills to change Russia UP, for example, so really hope to see this implemented into mod).
Yeah, Valladolid->Madrid seems to be a nice compomise and ahistorically early powerful Spain bullying Cordoba when it should experience kind of peaceful golden age is the main issue.
 
UP: Power of Gathering the/of Lands. Nickname-title "Gatherer of lands" was first, and usually is, applied to Muscovite rulers, particularly Ivan III, regarding their gradual acquisition and centralisation of numerous Rus principalities under Muscovite rule. Later, this title often became applied to later Russian rulers, who kinda continued this expansion outside older Rus territories, making Russia bigger and bigger from decade to decade, all the way to Pacific ocean, Poland and Persia. Finally, this nickname is often applied to Russia itself, as a huge state that gathered together enormous lands with different peoples and cultures.
Effects: acquiring new unclaimed land tile costs half (or even quarter) of culture cost needed for it. This will help Russia quickly expand its territory over generally hard culture-resistant terrain, like forests, hills and tundra, especially in Siberia, while it should not apply to tiles that already are controlled by other civs. Evenmore, I think this UP can also let Russian cities can expand to fourth culture ring, that is limited to third in RFCDoC otherwise. This, along with lower culture expansion cost, will enable Russia to control vast territories, especially of Siberia, with fewer not really cultured cities.
This is simple and elegant, the way a UP should be. I don't have anything against the current UP but this one is excellent too.
 
I like it, it has a clear strategic and even greater aesthetic justification. I remember on the old map where my Russia ended up looking rather snake-like because I only bothered settling Siberia to the extant that I needed it for the UHV.
Thank you!
I remember one game as Russia in RCDoC many years ago (perhaps even the one where new civs first got added, not sure, but that was before culture expansion was changed), where I managed to fully colonise Russia and even almost fully covered territory of Siberia (I settled main cities along the transsib railway in the south, but also ports in tundra in the north).
Snake-like Russian Siberia is kinda realistic, as almost all of population is concentrated in cities along the transsib railway along the south. But I think it should be atleast solved with settling some port "cities" along the arctic coast, and also there are few notable cities that can settled in the middle area of Siberia. With that covering Siberia almost fully will be quite possible, atleast for a human player.
 
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