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Napoléon I 1805 - 1815 ToTPP and Lua scenario updated to v1.3

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Scenario League' started by tootall_2012, Nov 21, 2018.

  1. tootall_2012

    tootall_2012 King

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    Thank you for taking the time to post your feedback.

    I’m curious to know, if like Northerner, whether you are successful in your attempts to establish Maritime Supremacy.

    Actually, in my research on the period I discovered that there were more Dragoons cavalry regiments than Lancers or Cuirassiers combined. The reason I choose the later two, given the overall unit limit, is that I wanted cavalry units that had more offensive/defensive contrasts for the player to choose from.

    In this case, the Lancers have a higher attack factor but a lower defensive one, whereas the Cuirassiers have a reasonable attack factor but good defensive one.

    The Hussars are indeed set up to be spy units and they have just the one “Spy on the city” ability.

    It’s a surprise to hear you may be experiencing troubles with them, as they are in the regular spy slot. During testing, I’ve played at least 300 turns and I’ve never encountered a single time were the Hussars couldn’t use their ability.

    Maybe you can send me a sav file of the turn where you encountered this issue so I can check.
     
  2. tootall_2012

    tootall_2012 King

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    Glad to hear you are enjoying it.

    I’ll be interested to hear what your Maritime score was by the beginning of 1808.

    Are you, or has anyone else, experienced issues with the Hussars unit not being able to use their spy ability?

    I hope getting the leader bonuses to apply isn’t too difficult. Unfortunately, despite our best intentions, there are some of the game mechanics that have to be followed for them to work.

    Yes, I believe McMonkey and Grishnach were working on a version of this for their Rise of Macedon scenario, and it served as a source of inspiration to implement it in my scenario.

    Fortunately, Knighttime was able to make my vision come true with his code.

    As I mentioned to John in another thread, the Military Train unit, in this particular scenario, has only a subtle effect.

    To date, in my testing, I’ve used these few units (they are very expensive to build) when I’ve had to lay siege to a particularly well defended enemy city.

    I will be very interested to hear players feedback on this particular feature and see how it can be modified or improved.

    As usual, I will track player’s feedback and compile a list of potential changes and improvements.

    One of the great features with lua is that you can update the file at any time and simply replace your old version with it, and any event that hasn’t occurred in your game can still trigger. As such, you don’t always have to restart the scenario from scratch as would be the case with macro.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2018
  3. countmc

    countmc Chieftain

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    I might be doing something wrong or have a corrupted file on my computer. The lua scripting that comes from pushing 'k' is working fine. But I have conquered all of Prussia and Treaty of Tilist, is there some other trigger besides taking the Prussian cities with a 'x'?
     
  4. countmc

    countmc Chieftain

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    Nvm. I'm an idiot, just realized I hadn't taken Lubin yet.
     
  5. tootall_2012

    tootall_2012 King

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    I recommend you print out Appendix D from the ReadMe guide to track the different Coalition wars victory requirements.

    Are you still experiencing issues with the Hussars?
     
  6. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor SLeague Staff

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    I'm now into Summer of 1806, still unable to get a peace deal with Austria, and Prussia has declared war. I'll carry on to see how it goes, but I don't see a win in the cards. I have several questions/suggestions.

    1. Archduke Charles is impossible to dislodge from a city. In my first game, he parked in Munich and the entire army's artillery, directed by Napoleon himself, blasted away for 3 months with little effect. This game, I figured out how to get to Munich before he arrived, but he dug in in Venice and prevented me taking that city, even though I'd decisively defeated the Austrians and beaten the Russians at Olmutz. This prevented me from imposing a peace treaty on the Austrians. I was in the process of redeploying the main army's artillery south to Italy when the Prussians declared war. Have you considered making him (and other generals such as Blucher) offensive units, instead of defensive ones. Something I've sometimes done with AI generals is to give them the air superiority flag. They tend to wander around a bit, but avoid suicidal attacks.

    2. British naval bombardments significantly affect play balance. My elan advantage was lost in the spring of 1806, despite great care to conserve line infantry units. I estimate about 2/3s of these were lost to British shore bombardments. Given the Readme advice to garrison ports, there's little choice but to use French line units, since there just aren't enough other types available. Besides, you just keep losing them each turn. In my games a single 3-decker takes out the Brest fortress each time. I suggest that it's also somewhat unrealistic as shore bombardments just didn't kill whole divisions at a time. Perhaps there's some way to restrict the number or strength of these attacks.

    3. 2 deckers weren't actually faster than 3 deckers as far as I know. Frigates were somewhat faster than ships of the line, but not much. The movement differential might be adjusted to reflect this.

    4. I suggest raising the cost of the Constabulary units. They can't move and they pile up very quickly in the cities that produce them. I sell some of them off to build improvements.

    There is some good news, for what it's worth. I'm up 5-2 over the British navy, but 15 looks a long way off. That's it for now. Back to fighting the British, Austrians, Russians and Prussians. And before long the Spanish too, I imagine. :cry:
     
  7. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    Good tip on the offensive/air superiority option for generals. If Charles gets in a city it's pretty much game over.
     
  8. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    I would imagine, Tootall, that you probably did this to have some differentiation between the naval units in this scenario, with the frigate presumably meant to be better able to escape than ships of the line. The issue however is that they both fire the same munition and in fact the frigate is effectively slower because it has all movement points deducted if it fires whereas the 3-decker gets to fire and then move, assuming it starts with enough MP. The naval munition sometimes struggles to kill a British ship with one shot (indeed sometimes it barely wounds them) and this leaves the ship vulnerable to attack the next turn where the British ship usually can destroy it in one shot (especially if your ship isn't a 3-decker).

    For these reasons I see very little point to ever building any frigate or 2-decker for that matter. I would suggest exploring a few options:

    1. Apply the "leader bonus" to each ship so that 3-decker shot is actually more powerful than frigate shot, and then reverse things so that frigates can fire twice (or even three times) per round but have less powerful munitions, 2-deckers can fire twice but have medium munitions, 3-deckers can fire once but have powerful munitions (this would make all ships unique); or

    2. Consider removing the 2-decker altogether, renaming 3-decker "Ship of the Line" and then using the 2-decker slot to create another less powerful munition for the frigate, and allowing it to fire a few times so it can use its speed to escape.

    I personally favor option 1 and it seems completely possible - no reason the leader bonus wouldn't work here as far as I can tell. On that note - should the French admiral have some sort of bonus effect?
     
  9. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor SLeague Staff

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    Alternatively, my suggestion would be to have the 3-decker able to fire 3 times, the 2-decker twice, and (you guessed it) the frigate once, with the frigate only losing part of its movement. This would most accurately reflect the firepower differences of the ship types. Also, would it be possible to make British ships similar to French ones with events replacing their ammunition automatically each turn? Just some thoughts.
     
  10. countmc

    countmc Chieftain

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    Hussar still not working as a spy unit. I have started the game a few times, no problem with Archduke Charles. Have never gotten to a point where I can defeat the Brits in naval action. Even with a three decker I do not feel like I make a dent in there three deckers. I got up to 13 on British ships sunk, but that was mostly getting lucky by finding there frigates.

    I feel like I am spending a lot of resources trying to make Germany useful once I conquer it. Maybe put something in there about happiness buildings automatically regenerate once Confederation of the Rhine created? Germany becomes a money pit, spending lots to increase happiness in the hope to eventually have them generate money market.

    I don't know if Lua would allow you to do this, but you can have the happiness buildings go away in Germany if Prussia and Russia 'liberate' cities that the French had previously conquered.

    Traditionally the Tyrol area was also a major source of partisan warfare against the French. Maybe generate partisan unit through events which would require the French to put a sizable garrison in the area?

    Still the fact that I keep restarting and playing speaks to how much fun and how well constructed this scenario is.
     
  11. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor SLeague Staff

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    Here's something odd. I found that French fregate units do not see British ships until they move next to them, despite having the two-space visibility flag.
     
  12. Knighttime

    Knighttime Warlord

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    It's great to see that quite a few people have already downloaded this scenario, and also great to receive feedback from many of you. Thanks very much for all the positive comments, and also for your ideas about potential improvements. It's always good to see that the forums are still active with Civ 2 fans!

    @tootall_2012 deserves the majority of the credit here -- this scenario is entirely a result of his vision and he certainly invested many hours into its creation. I had a very good experience working with him and contributing Lua events to help make his vision a reality. Any and all decisions about releasing revisions or alterations are completely up to him.

    That being said, I'll offer a few comments on points related to the Lua events:
    This would definitely be possible. Personally I like the idea of having this be accessible at any time by pressing a key... since the events are managing all political relationships, the F3 key is effectively disabled, so making a political summary available some other way seems appropriate.

    I think it may have been an oversight on my part, that it wasn't written this way initially. It wouldn't be a problem to activate all artillery shells fired by ground or naval units immediately upon creation, and to the best of my knowledge this should still interact properly with the leader bonus.

    There might be some enhancements that are possible in this area, but the implementation would be complex and take a decent amount of time. Tootall and I discussed this briefly during the design phase and ultimately didn't end up pursuing it further, since it wasn't clear that the benefit would be worth the investment. But if the current implementation seems lacking, such that it feels difficult or cumbersome to activate the leader bonus properly, we could revisit the topic. Feel free to post any thoughts you have about this as you play. It is true, though, that the game mechanics do eventually limit our options here.

    This is definitely true in most instances. However, there are some events that require the game to keep a history of what has happened in the scenario up to that point (the maritime supremacy score being one example). Adding or modifying this type of event might require the scenario to be restarted from the beginning, if the relevant history was never collected.

    Many of the ideas regarding naval bombardment would primarily involve changes in Rules.txt to unit type definitions. From a Lua events perspective, any changes that Tootall would like to make are probably possible.

    Lua definitely permits city improvements to be added or removed, so this seems like a topic that's worthy of consideration. But I'll let Tootall determine whether the situation you described is deliberate and intentional, vs. the degree to which he considers it appropriate to have events step in and provide a different experience.

    Thanks again to all of you for your thoughts, and I hope you continue to enjoy this scenario!
     
  13. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    They should also have detect subs flag too.
     
  14. tootall_2012

    tootall_2012 King

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    This is one of those situations that are difficult to evaluate. I’ve replayed the scenario multiple times, in particular the first year of the game, and have never failed to defeat Austria in the first 5 to 6 turns. I’ve never been unable to defeat Charles, or any other leader for that matter, though I will admit they can at times be difficult to dislodge when they are entrenched (and this was my intention, as a well entrenched and located coalition leader can slow down a French advance and force the player to redirect his forces to deal with the situation).

    Again this is a situation that is difficult to evaluate. I’ve gone through different variants on the naval aspect of the game and came up with different results.

    With regards the shore bombardment ability, in some play tests I would see that the British 3 Decker killed too many Regiment de Ligne, whereas in other play tests they didn’t. In that regard, it’s impossible to predict the AI behavior from one play test to another.

    All the same, in the last version I added the Coastal Fortress improvement to the scenario and added one each in Calais and Amsterdam, at the start, and this seemed at the time to give the French player a little more respite and to bring back some balance.

    I took a little bit of liberty here to provide a little bit of diversity.

    I guess I should have included this note in the readme. The Constabulary isn’t really supposed to be used at all. I originally had a settler unit in the unit grid, which was supposed to be unbuildable. But every time the French would first capture a city they would be given the option to build a settler, which I didn’t want, so I replaced the settler with the worthless Constabulary unit, in the hopes the players would realize it has no value (its stats are 0m, 1a, 1d, 1hp, 1fp).

    Sounds, unfortunately, that your opening moves didn’t go well for you. It’s critical to be able to kill off Austria within the first 6 turns otherwise, as you indicated, your headaches will become very challenging indeed.

    I originally had the 3 Trois-ponts have the ability to fire 3 shells, the Deux-ponts fire 2 shells and the Fregate fire 1 shell. Unfortunately, this proved much too powerful and allowed the French navy to contest Maritime supremacy much more easily. So I scaled the number of shells back to provide a greater challenge. This had the consequence of making the difference between the Frégate and Deux-ponts less obvious.

    In addition, the Coalition 3 Decker also had a weaker defense factor and the French would typically be able to either destroy or severely damage it with one naval shell. So in the last play test, I increased it’s defense value. Based on current feedback, I may decide to reduce it a little.

    The 3 Decker is essentially a Ship of the Line. The Frigate is the only vessel that has the find submarine flags, so the intent here was to allow it to seek out enemy vessel so the 3 and 2 Decker vessels could close in for the kill.

    I like your idea of creating an extra munitions slot (I happen to have one spot left in the unit grid). In this case, I would have a more powerful 3 Decker shell and a less powerful shell for the Frigate and 2 Decker vessels. In this manner, the 3 Decker could fire 2 shots as before, the 2 decker fire 2 shells and the Frigate one shell. This might bring more value to possessing a diverse fleet.

    I hadn’t thought about that. This could be an interesting addition to give Villeneuve a leader attack bonus. This would give the French player a greater incentive to preserve this unit.

    I retested this again yesterday and it works fine for me. As such, I really don’t know what’s going on here. As I mentioned, the unit is located in the regular spy slot and I’m not applying any other special feature to it so it should work normally.

    Again, I’d be interested to know if anyone else has experienced this problem.

    As I mentioned to Techumseh, I’ve never been able NOT to defeat Charles, so I’m not certain why he’s having such difficulty.

    As I mentioned above, I will continue to review the changes that can be made to the naval aspect of the game.

    This was intentional as I understand it France experienced some level of difficulty in controlling this region.

    France struggled economically during the war and I wanted to reflect that in the game. In the long term, it will be very important to build ‘financial’ improvements to increase your revenue, otherwise you will find yourself with serious financial difficulty.

    Besides, you will find later in the game that you will need to be able to buy units if you want to make up for battlefield losses. If you don’t have the ability to generate these funds you will find you may be running out of units when you need them to fill the gaps in your armed forces.

    If you do take the time to build these improvements in your conquered lands, your investment should payback in the long term.

    Some of the buildings already disappear as part of the normal conquest game mechanics. I didn’t see any reason to change this. As I mentioned above, it’s the improvements that generate revenue that were designed to be the more important in this scenario.

    This is an interesting idea. I was reading yesterday that there was peasant unrest in the Vendee region of France during this period. In addition to Spain, I might consider adding partisan activity in the Tyrol and Vendee regions.

    I’m glad to hear your are enjoying yourself. Sometimes, when a designer gets feedback, its not always easy to tell if the issue reported by the players are seen as a major downside to the scenario or simply ways to make the scenario better.

    I would have to double check but I think this may due to the fact that all the naval units have the 'Submarine advantages/disadvantages' flag and therefore you need to be next to them to discover them, even if the Frégate has the 'Unit can spot submarines'
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
  15. tootall_2012

    tootall_2012 King

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    Thanks Knighttime. As I've mentioned to all concerned, you were an integral part in the making of the scenario and I couldn't have achieved my vision without your vital contribution.

    With regards the player feedback, as I mentioned in a previous thread, its still a little early to start making changes but I am taking down notes and will certainly want to confer with you on what may be possible or not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  16. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor SLeague Staff

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    To be clear, in my 3rd try I had wiped the table with both the Austrians and Russians by January, including in Italy. All that was left was Charles in Venice and a few garrisons, and my artillery barely scratched him. I agree that a good coalition leader in an entrenched position should be able to slow down the French advance, but my experience (and Petroski's by the sound of it) is otherwise. Maybe a hint as to how you cleared him out of fortified cities?

    I recognize that this is a real design challenge, given the AI's habit of attacking anything on the shore, regardless of the odds. There is the patch feature that limits the number of attacks a unit can make in a turn. You used it effectively in 'Vietnam', would it work here? Otherwise, I have had some success in these situations (with leader units mainly) by reducing the attack factor and firepower of the unit somewhat and increasing the hits. This gives more even results and (with testing) can ensure the target is usually destroyed, with enough damage to the attacking unit that it doesn't repeat the attack.

    Last suggestion: as Brest was the primary Atlantic base of the French fleet and well-fortified, perhaps a coastal fortress might be added.

    I find them useful as garrisons, but maybe I should switch after building a couple. But if you don't want us to build them, make them more expensive. Just sayin'.


    My hussar works fine. Love it.

    Good idea. The Tyrolean uprising was in conjunction with the Austrian offensive of 1809, as this region had been annexed to Bavaria after 1805. The uprising in the Vendee was largely suppressed by 1793, but there was a minor flare-up again in 1813-15.

    Except the 3-deckers, scourge of the French infantry that they are. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
  17. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    I certainly hope you don't think my feedback is to report any major downsides. I'm having an absolute blast with this scenario. I rank it right up there with Red Front in terms of how enjoyable the experience (and I use that word deliberately) has been. I think you two have done an excellent job and the scenario's "feel" is simply superb. I love the little touches like the sound effect for when a game starts up (I might have to borrow that)!

    Your scenario is competing with Battlefield V, completion of my own scenario, and some things I found on sale on steam. The only other thing I've touched besides this game is my scenario. I think that says a lot! So please take any feedback as it is intended - with the best intentions!

    I do have to agree with Techumseh about the AI generals though - like you said - if you don't defeat Austria in the first half dozen or so turns, you're in for a hard game. It seems to be luck of the draw if you meet the general in the open or in a city and if you meet him in a city you are in considerably worse position (to the point, possibly) of needing a restart. I don't think this would be as big of an issue later in the game.
     
  18. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor SLeague Staff

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    On my fourth game, Charles was luckily deposited in Innsbruck, where he sat like a lump while I bypassed him and quickly defeated Austria by the December turn. That reversion of cities event is amazing to see. Amazing work, Knighttime!
     
  19. tootall_2012

    tootall_2012 King

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    No, of course not, rather what I’m trying to gather is if some of the issues reported, in particular the naval aspects or generals are seen as show stoppers or rather ways that could be improved. And if so, what changes could be made to address them.

    As you indicated, I believe Tech encountered an unfavorable initial random placement of Charles. As was stated, if he had arrived in Munchen or is caught out in the open he’s much easier to kill off.

    I suspect in this case, he must have arrived in Venezia and immediately fortified there. He doesn’t start as a veteran but after a first attack against him, he may in addition have gained the veteran bonus which made him even tougher.

    The only solution against this is artillery. As a test, just to reconfirm to myself that this tactic was feasible, I fortified Charles and an Austrian line infantry in Venezia and made them both veterans.

    I then stacked 5 8pdr artillery and 1 horse artillery unit with Napoleon next to the city, which is artillery that is readily available to the French commander at the start of the game.

    I then pounded the city with shells on the first turn but with minimal effect. On the second turn, I did the same and this time was able to kill the Line unit and reduce Charles to roughly 60%. On the third turn, unplanned, an Austrian line and foot artillery unit slipped into the city and Charles had maybe recuperated to 80%. With my artillery I generated once more the 10 8pdr shells and 3 6pdr shells and blasted away once again. This time, after expending all the shells, I was able to destroy both the infantry and artillery units and reduce Charles to 10%.

    I then used a Garde Impériale unit, whose attack factor increases from 9 to 14 when stacked with Napoleon, to finish off Charles and finally enter the city.

    I know I encountered similar situations during my testing during the other Coalitions wars. So the players should expect to have to deal with these types of entrenched enemy positions more than once in the scenario.

    Nonetheless, since the success to the opening war is so important, having to deal with an entrenched Charles in Venezia, might place some unlucky players at an unfair advantage. I could review the initial random placement of Charles to see if I can avoid having him appear in Venezia, if there is a consensus on this.

    I remembered one of the other reasons I reduced the number shells the French Frégate and Deux-ponts could generate was so they couldn’t take advantage of hit and run tactics by moving out of a port to attack a nearby British vessel, launch a one shell attack and scurry back into port.

    But again, I'm reviewing how and if this could be improved.

    I like Tech's suggestion on using TOTPP's attack per turn feature. I know it was an issue with my Viertnam scenario but as I recall TNO applied a fix and it should work properly now.

    Assuming it works, would you limit the 3 Decker to 1 or 2 attacks per turn?

    As I mentioned, I didn’t originally have the Coastal Fortress improvement available in the game because I was fearful that the British AI would just launch wave after wave of ships against these defenses and rack up a pile of dead ships. As such, I had decided to place Minor Fort units in the strategic French ports of Toulon and Brest instead.

    Given that the 3 Decker is still able to achieve some success against ports with CF, I could review removing the Minor forts and replace them with the city improvement instead.

    Finally, I just want say this is a long scenario and therefore I believe it’s important for players to get the full experience before I should start making any important changes based on the feedback. You will definitely encounter difficult situations, where you may end up with a bloody nose, and there will be other occasions where you’ll want to pat yourself on the back for getting out of those same tough spots.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  20. tootall_2012

    tootall_2012 King

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    The Hussars spy ability is a pretty important part of the French arsenal. Without it you will find yourself partially in the dark about enemy dispositions, which could have dire consequences when attacking well defended cities.

    As a test, can you try to modify the unit in the diplomat tile (aka the 8 pdr Shells) and give it the diplomat role to see if it's able to work as a spy.

    If you can send me a save game of yours I can test it on my side, though I expect the Hussar will work for me.

    Civilization is a little temperamental at times, maybe the problem could be related to your installation.
     

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