Nationalism is not Good

Originally posted by G-Man
No. Jews in general don't have a policy or anything else that connects all of them, therefore you can't hate jews for their ideas in general. French have something in common - they're all living in France, they all have the right to vote (and therefore influence the decisions of their goverment), they have govermental organizations that execute these decisions.
That's irrelevant. Substitute French with Germans and I can tell you that I don't at all influence the decisions of "my" government, nor what they say or stand for.
The decisions of government organizations are not my decisions.
There are Jewish organizations as well, why should Jews be less represented through them then I through the German government, or to take it to another level, my university?

As long as you don't actively support the actions of an organization that represents a group you are part of there's no reason to be seen connected to it.
And within that there's no difference between Jews, French or any other group.
 
Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Anti Semitism is a definition coined when Jews were the only Semites in Europe.

So it only applies to Jews, and not Other semite groups.
Then they should just change it anti-Israel/anti-Jew, because they do support the Arabs as long as they remain in the ME. And Jewish organizations should stop calling any anti-Israel person anti-Jew. There are few things more annoying than that.

I don't know if being anti-european is racism, as europeans aren't a race (meaning they have nothing in common except the geeographic location of their countries). I think the question that should be asked is if being anti european means you hate EVERY single european or just hate europeans in general (ie opposing to the general opinions of French public but isn't against any French because he's French).
But do you agree that being lets say, anti-european is any better than being racist, or are they the same?
 
What with all the nit-picking going on here, I'm starting to become anti-semantic.

God, anti-Semitic means hatred of Jews for religious and/or racist reasons. The fact that Arabs, Ethiopians, Berbers, etc. are also Semites is totally irrelevant. Trying to argue against that definition is a waste of time.

Iceblaze, hatred of any group simply because they are of that group is just as bad as racism or anti-semitism, or any other "-ism" you want to name. Arguing otherwise is a double standard.

Damien, attacks against Jewish people and property have been increasing in recent years across Europe. This is a regressive attitude that puts a dark blight upon other arguably "progressive" things that have been happening in Europe. Also, a reactionary backlash seems to be building in the various nations of Europe. I point to elections in France, Austria, and the Netherlands as examples. That's not exactly progressive either.
 
much as I hate to agree with Becka, at at least some level she's right. This whole thing is the flip side of globalization. The problem is that if you are willing to do business with someone, you will look for common ground, so as to improve the business prospects. Also there are many spernational factors, religion being foremost. Once the prospect of uniting the various German peoples into a single cohesive nation was a proverb for hopeless. The sames was true of the tribes of the Arabian deasert in the early 20th century. Not anymore. In this era of easy travel and instant communications, nationalism hasnt the impact it did once.

None of this is to say that utopia is coming. there will never be a single world government until there are other worlds to fight. Nationalism is sick and slowly dying, but it will easily outlive any that read these words.

J
 
Iceblaze, hatred of any group simply because they are of that group is just as bad as racism or anti-semitism, or any other "-ism" you want to name. Arguing otherwise is a double standard.

I never said it isn't as bad Switch.
I just said it is not racism, it is a different kind of hatred.
 
Originally posted by Hitro

That's irrelevant. Substitute French with Germans and I can tell you that I don't at all influence the decisions of "my" government, nor what they say or stand for.

>>> You don't, but German public in general does have. Which is why if I disagree with your goverment I'll blame the German public in general and not you as an individual.

The decisions of government organizations are not my decisions.
There are Jewish organizations as well, why should Jews be less represented through them then I through the German government, or to take it to another level, my university?

>>> There's no all-jewish organization. Far from that. There's no jewish goverment. Just like I can't blame you for something a German organization you're not a member in does, you can't blame a jew for something a jewish organization he's not in does.

As long as you don't actively support the actions of an organization that represents a group you are part of there's no reason to be seen connected to it.

>>> But you DO support the German goverment, and you are a member of this group (as you are a German citizen).
 
Originally posted by G-Man
You don't, but German public in general does have. Which is why if I disagree with your goverment I'll blame the German public in general and not you as an individual.
I completely agree with that view, although I think that for most people making a destinction between the two is too complicated...
There's no all-jewish organization. Far from that. There's no jewish goverment. Just like I can't blame you for something a German organization you're not a member in does, you can't blame a jew for something a jewish organization he's not in does.
Also correct.
But doesn't that mean if I (or anybody else) blame's a leader of a Jewish organization for something or even hate him personally that this hatred is not anti-semitism?
But you DO support the German goverment, and you are a member of this group (as you are a German citizen).
Do you suggest that I hand in my citizenship? Will you give me the Israeli one? ;)
Since when do I support the German government? I didn't vote for them, so there's no way I am voluntarily connected to them.
 
Government and people are 2 different things.The government is supposed to represent people but in reality it doesn't in most countries since in those countries, people don't have the right to launch referenda(or only at a restricted level,like in the US for example).

I won't blame Americans for having set up a dictatorship in Chile,I'll blame the american government of that time.

You say Jewish and Israeli are 2 different things.I agree but it's not the point of view of anti-semites.

And Switch,I disagree with your last paragraph.Those are not the acts of the majority or an important minority.
There will always be bigots.
The NL is known to be very progressist and yet is called backward now because a few crooks are racist.It's wrong.

Some people in the NL are racist but,a few years ago,non-eu citizens were given the right to vote there.
 
Originally posted by Hitro

I completely agree with that view, although I think that for most people making a destinction between the two is too complicated...

>>> Fools! This enire world is filled with fools! :crazyeye:

Also correct.
But doesn't that mean if I (or anybody else) blame's a leader of a Jewish organization for something or even hate him personally that this hatred is not anti-semitism?

>>> If you hate a certain leader or a certain group because of their opinions there's nothing anti semetic about it.

Do you suggest that I hand in my citizenship? Will you give me the Israeli one? ;)

>>> Sure. 500$, unmarked bills.

Since when do I support the German government? I didn't vote for them, so there's no way I am voluntarily connected to them.

>>> You pay them. And as long as you're a German citizen you're member of the organization called "Germany".
 
Originally posted by Damien
Government and people are 2 different things.The government is supposed to represent people but in reality it doesn't in most countries since in those countries, people don't have the right to launch referenda(or only at a restricted level,like in the US for example).

I won't blame Americans for having set up a dictatorship in Chile,I'll blame the american government of that time.

>>> I would. If the people cared ebough about it they'd vote out the goverment and put a new goverment in place. (assuming I take your point of view that it was a bad move)

You say Jewish and Israeli are 2 different things.I agree but it's not the point of view of anti-semites.

>>> Which is why they're called racists.
 
Government and people are 2 different things.The government is supposed to represent people but in reality it doesn't in most countries since in those countries, people don't have the right to launch referenda(or only at a restricted level,like in the US for example).

Nonsense. In all established democracies, people ALWAYS have the power.
Voting right = Unlimited power.
Question being, how do the people choose to use it, and do they organize voting groups and pressure groups wisely.
To say that people do not have the power to change in a democracy that does not have regular referendum right is complete nonsense and basic misunderstanding of citizenship, grouping and organizing pressure groups.

I won't blame Americans for having set up a dictatorship in Chile,I'll blame the american government of that time.

You won't blame the American, you blame the Americans because they selected the government.

You say Jewish and Israeli are 2 different things.I agree but it's not the point of view of anti-semites.

No idea what you are talking about here.
Also, anti semites vary in their racialism and causes. They also have awareness.
 
Originally posted by IceBlaZe


Nonsense. In all established democracies, people ALWAYS have the power.
Voting right = Unlimited power.
Question being, how do the people choose to use it, and do they organize voting groups and pressure groups wisely.
To say that people do not have the power to change in a democracy that does not have regular referendum right is complete nonsense and basic misunderstanding of citizenship, grouping and organizing pressure groups.

>>>Wrong.People got no counter-power and cast a blind vote,following only promises.They can choose other parties on the next elections but big parties are the ones the medias talk about and other parties may not be a good choice for other points as well.
When you vote for someone,you are supposed to agree with EVERYTHING he says.Of course it's not the case and moreover politicians have to make compromises with other parties(if they don't have the absolute majority) and the ones leading economics.

I don't expect americans to vote for commies because at least,they wouldn't have set Pinochet.

You won't blame the American, you blame the Americans because they selected the government.

>>>They couldn't know about it in advance.
 
Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Nonsense. In all established democracies, people ALWAYS have the power.
Voting right = Unlimited power.
Question being, how do the people choose to use it, and do they organize voting groups and pressure groups wisely.
To say that people do not have the power to change in a democracy that does not have regular referendum right is complete nonsense and basic misunderstanding of citizenship, grouping and organizing pressure groups.

I have organized or advised about a dozen pressure groups, been on the receiving end of about three dozen of same while in government; I've been a candidate for local office, and helped run campaigns for several parties across the country. And I have to tell you, no offence Iceblaze, but this...

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Nonsense. In all established democracies, people ALWAYS have the power.
Voting right = Unlimited power.

has to have been the most :lol: thing I've seen in these forums in a long, long time.

R.III
 
Originally posted by G-Man
If you hate a certain leader or a certain group because of their opinions there's nothing anti semetic about it.
I've heard different things from those leaders...
Sure. 500$, unmarked bills.
Just 500? Be careful what you say, I may take your offer.
You pay them. And as long as you're a German citizen you're member of the organization called "Germany".
Now you are contradicting yourself. What choice do I have?
If I won't pay taxes I would have a serious problem. The only theoretical influence I have is the vote (which didn't support the government), and that's just a theoretical one...
Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Voting right = Unlimited power.
Well this has already been commented by R.III. Ice, you must have been joking, right? ;)
 
>>>Wrong.People got no counter-power and cast a blind vote,following only promises.They can choose other parties on the next elections but big parties are the ones the medias talk about and other parties may not be a good choice for other points as well.
When you vote for someone,you are supposed to agree with EVERYTHING he says.Of course it's not the case and moreover politicians have to make compromises with other parties(if they don't have the absolute majority) and the ones leading economics.

Again, wrong. This is why pressure groups exist.

First of all, let's look at the bad points of referendums.

A) From Historical experience, it is a tool that has been used badly.
B) A referendum only allows clear distinction and decision using YES and NO, when sometimes the problem is more complex to be answered like that
C) Referendum is a tool that can be exploited very badly by demagogs who know how to use the Media and take advantage of waves of public histeria
D) The way questions are phrased can manipulate the outcomes.

Referendum is redundant in Modern Democracie, it is too simplistic and easy to take advantage of. And it is also very problematic in multi-National countries like the United States, or countries with a Religious rip and National rip like Israel.

Now let's examine what you said.

People got no counter-power and cast a blind vote,following only promises.

Incorrect. They can set up pressure groups that will attach to a certain party or a certain cause, causing pressure in the Parliament instantly and effectively also in the House of Representatives.

They can choose other parties on the next elections but big parties are the ones the medias talk about and other parties may not be a good choice for other points as well.

In Israel, before each election the Royal Channel broadcasts the Political Programme of each party daily. So all parties are talked about.
Also, every party gets basic funding by the government and parties are not allowed to get funding for their campaign in illegal ways (Law of Party Funding).
When you do not like the programmes of all of the parties, you choose the one closest to you and find people who think similiar to you to:
1. Set up a pressure group OR
2. Set up a new party OR
3. Pressure a specific party or the Parliament using legal methods shortly before the Elections or during the Elections (Similiar to 1, but different in a few aspects)

Of course it's not the case and moreover politicians have to make compromises with other parties(if they don't have the absolute majority) and the ones leading economics.

Voting for a certain party is called a compromise - If you want exact opinions you will need 6 million parties for 6 million people.

So what happens is that people find a common goal and a common perspective and turn it into a new party or a pressure group on the party that is closest to that opinion to actually do something about it in the Parliament and House of Representatives.

>>>They couldn't know about it in advance.

They knew about it while it happened and they could have arranged a fuss and a comitty.
For example, after Sabra and Shatila about 300,000 Israelis protested, causing MASS pressure, resulting in the Kahan Comission, resulting in the disbanding of Sharon and senior IDF commanders.

Still, big issues can be referended by the Government for their own good of not losing power and popularity, but giving the Citizens the power to easily launch referendums is foolish.

Also, don't forget that in Referndums you can only answer YES or NO, and different people have very different interpertations of what YES or NO means in the relation of the question.

It's amusing that you are using the fact that to choose a party you need to agree to all of their opinions as a case, while in a referendum you must decide YES or NO immediately, or your vote is powerless.

Imagine 220 million people, when each of them wants a different phrasing to a very conflicting issue. What, 220 million referendums?
 
R. III, Hitro, I'm not joking.
The fact that Humans are inherently lazy and badly organized does not degrade the power of the voting right.
One vote doesn't have much effect, but a million do.
 
Originally posted by IceBlaZe
R. III, Hitro, I'm not joking.
The fact that Humans are inherently lazy and badly organized does not degrade the power of the voting right.
One vote doesn't have much effect, but a million do.
Well I won't go into the discussion who really rules the country, if it's the elected government or others, but even if it is the government, as a single vote has no power a common individual has neither.
Therefore the point is not valid in this sense.
 
You don't understand my perception.
Of course an individual doesn't have real control, but a group does.

If you organize a group, you have a bunch of votes.
You get funds to do campaigns and and appear in the media.
You get to the hearts of thousands.
Only then, the power is effective. And unlimited.
 
Originally posted by Hitro

I've heard different things from those leaders...

>>> Do you have any example?

Just 500? Be careful what you say, I may take your offer.

>>> Alright, I'll pay you 600$ ;)

Now you are contradicting yourself. What choice do I have?
If I won't pay taxes I would have a serious problem. The only theoretical influence I have is the vote (which didn't support the government), and that's just a theoretical one...

>>> What choice do you have? You can vote against your goverment. If the German public will do that it'll make a difference (and as I said I'm talking about the public, not you as an individual)
 
Originally posted by IceBlaZe
You don't understand my perception.
Of course an individual doesn't have real control, but a group does.

If you organize a group, you have a bunch of votes.
You get funds to do campaigns and and appear in the media.
You get to the hearts of thousands.
Only then, the power is effective. And unlimited.

This is nice in theory. But it ignores several problems in reality, which are best boiled down to "some animals are more equal than others."

And I'm not speaking strictly of the influence of rank (EDIT: by which I mean, for example, one's position in the bureacracy), money or incumbency here, although these are obviously big factors.

Still :lol:

R.III
 
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