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Natural Wonder Elimination Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by hhhhhh, Aug 28, 2020.

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  1. JJOne

    JJOne Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Messages:
    377
    Eyjafjallajökull [15]
    Ik-Kil [18]
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [33] (32+1) Piopiotahi on steroids, and a trade route bonus..
    Piopiotahi [4]
    Torres del Paine [21](24-3) I asked myself, would I enjoy finding Roraima or Torres early? And decided that I would like that early faith and science more.
    Yosemite [10]
     
  2. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
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    Torres del Paine [18] (21-3) Currently on track to come third, which I don’t think it deserves to be. Sure, it sometimes spawns in decent terrain and turns that decent terrain into amazing terrain; but it also sometimes spawns on flat land or in tundra, in which case it’s just kinda ‘I appreciate this, but it’s not amazing’.

    Ik-Kil [19] (18+1) I think this is the real third place candidate, behind Paititi and Roraima. Very flexible for districts or for wonders, and often spawns amid super-choppable rainforest.


    Eyjafjallajökull [15]
    Ik-Kil [19] (18+1)
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [33]
    Piopiotahi [4]
    Torres del Paine [18] (21-3)
    Yosemite [10]
     
    cylenalag likes this.
  3. Cpt Chaos

    Cpt Chaos Chieftain

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    Nov 22, 2013
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    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Païtiti [33+1=34] Haven't voted for it yet, and obviously the OP winner.
    Torres del Paine [18-3=15] I think (as others seem to) that a wonder that doesn't provide culture or science probably shouldn't last much longer, despite the possibility for a nice kick-start.

    Eyjafjallajökull [15]
    Ik-Kil [19]
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [34]
    Piopiotahi [4]
    Torres del Paine [15]
    Yosemite [10]
     
  4. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,662
    Location:
    Łódź, PL
    Eyjafjallajökull [15]
    Ik-Kil [20]
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [34]
    Piopiotahi [4]
    Torres del Paine [15]
    Yosemite [7]

    Yosemite still here? It is just a single campus+lib and a single CH+market IF all the tiles worked (meaning 8 population designited to it). Does not offer anything unique like many wonders recently eliminated ( I look at you Matternhorn, Pammukale and ZD) and "lack" of Yosemite can be easily worked out other ways
    -3

    Ik-Kyl +1
    Should not be lower than Roraima, simply because it is better.
     
    8housesofelixir likes this.
  5. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    716
    I'm a bit blown away by some of the recent votes. It's a shame that it's become a contest between a couple wonders in a targeted elimination effort while inferior wonders remain. My thoughts:

    Eyja: At this stage the mere fact that it is exclusive to tundra and snow should send it packing, on top of its ability to pillage or destroy your improvements around it.

    Ik-kil: A mixed bag. It's not good to get it early as you're not using its full potential. There's a limited window of usefulness mid-late game. As the earlier a Wonder is acquired, the earlier you can benefit and get a bigger, faster snowball, this should have been gone a while ago.

    Roraima: Dense yields but of a tricky variety. The faith can be very good very early to get you to a pantheon, potentially saving you the production of your first settler. After that, however, its grassland positioning can be detrimental to your efforts. Just look at the current GotM: Even on Legendary start position and a very lucky seaside spawn, there's heavy debate about where to settle and what to work. Without any spoilers, a heavy consideration has to be made about how to work the tiles and where to place Holy Sites (it's a religious GotM). In this case, converting adjacency tiles into Holy Sites will in many cases not get you a net increase in Faith, but will cause you to lose the science. The same applies to Campuses and the net gain of science (if any, prior to library and policy cards) at the cost of losing the faith.

    Consider early science as the resource you have to manage the most heavily: Too much science outpacing your production will actually do more harm than good. As you unlock technology, you increase the cost of actually building the districts. Then with fewer districts actually laid down, but more district techs unlocked, you can lose out on discounts. Further, your tech can outpace your production ability to actually make units. Consider that, for example, finishing Archery automatically removes your ability to build Slingers (and wastes any production currently in progress on any slingers), and you now must hard build Archers rather than pump slingers to upgrade (producing low tech units and paying for upgrades is far more efficient than producing higher tech units). Pretty much the only time you want such hard and fast science is to get to a Horseman rush. But even then once you unlock Horsemen you may want to cut back on science fairly quickly (for the previously mentioned reasons).

    Culture by and large does not suffer from these considerations, as you unlock only two districts via Culture and practically no units, and the raw power of policy cards and governments being unlocked (especially early) far, far outweigh any negative consequences.


    Paititi: Not much to say, this is the only Wonder being given the correct consideration. In my opinion it should be between Torres and this for top spot.

    Pio: This is being done dirty. See thoughts above on Science vs Culture. Pio should compete against Yosemite for top 5, but since Ik-Kil and Eyjafjallajökull are still here, it's become a petty contest to eliminate one against the other before either is due. In my opinion, not only is the Culture of Pio worth more then the Science of Yosemite, but the sheer fact that Yosemite can spawn in Tundra while Pio cannot should at this stage be enough to put Pio ahead, regardless of your opinion on Culture vs Science.

    Torres: Here to me is where the downvoting makes no sense whatsoever. Torres is the most consistent Wonder in the game with the two most crucial early resources: Food and Production. At minimum (grassland/plains) it will turn 2-yield tiles into 4-yield tiles. At maximum in the case of hill tiles, it turns 3-yield tiles into 6-yield tiles. All this without any consideration for extra yields like woods, bonus resources, or luxuries/strategics. I think I'd honestly take Torres over Païtiti because of its consistency and I know I won't have to worry about growth or production, while Païtiti may find you lacking in one or both of those areas (it can also spawn in DESERT). I acknowledge that Torres can spawn in Tundra, and while my experience is that Tundra spawns are infrequent, at least Tundra is better than freaking Desert.

    One takeaway from the new Wonder-selection mode is that we may be able to come away with fairly reliable frequency numbers for terrain spawns.

    Yosemite: See above. Should at least compete for #5/#6 with Piopiotahi but there's a petty contest going on right now between the two to send one packing early. Yosemite can spawn in TUNDRA or plains. Pio can spawn in GRASSLAND or plains. What even is life right now?


    For my votes I feel obligated to try to keep Piopiotahi around at least to outlast Eyjafjallajökull and Ik-kil. I won't contribute to the petty feud between it and Yosemite, so I will stand on principle and downvote Eyjafjallajökull (followed by Ik-kil). If the petty feud continues this will be my last vote... this thread has significantly lower participation than usual so the results are already more dubious than expected.

    Eyjafjallajökull [12]
    Ik-Kil [20]
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [34]
    Piopiotahi [5]
    Torres del Paine [15]
    Yosemite [7]
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  6. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,193
    Yosemite (7+1=8) There's not much to say here that I haven't already said. Lots of yields in combinations that are easy to work.
    Ik-Kil (20-3=17) Weak in the early game, since its bonus is dependent on your city having significant production to multiply. To be competitive with the remaining wonders, I think this needs to secure you a wonder you otherwise would have missed- the saved production alone doesn't seem sufficient. That's certainly possible, but it's far from guaranteed.

    Eyjafjallajökull [12]
    Ik-Kil [17]
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [34]
    Piopiotahi [5]
    Torres del Paine [15]
    Yosemite [8]
     
  7. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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    Gender:
    Male
    Eyjafjallajökull [12]
    Ik-Kil [14] (17-3)
    IMO kinda overrated.
    Ik-Kil should be the next candidate to go. Like other have Ik-kil is not immediately effective. Just iterating that one has to plan around Ik-kil to use it effectively, not to mention there maybe placement constraints eg oracle on a hill, pyramid in desert. Lastly, if it could be potentially the case that Ik-kil is surrounded by irremovable resources or impassable terrain, in which case renders Ik-kil to be less effective. Districts near Ik-kil may have poor adjacency, in general Ik-kil is nice but is more rng dependent than most wonders.

    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [34]
    Piopiotahi [6] (5+1)
    I think this guy should last longer than Ik-Kil. And should rank roughly the same as yosemite.

    Torres del Paine [15]
    Yosemite [8]
     
    lotrmith likes this.
  8. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    727
    Eyjafjallajökull [12]
    Ik-Kil [14]
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [34]
    Piopiotahi [7]
    Torres del Paine [15]
    Yosemite [5]

    This is a repeat vote, but I didnt have the time to vote yesterday when I could have votes fot something else, and we are at the sharp end of the competition. Piopiotahi has housing guaranteed, Yosemite doesn't. Piopiotahi can't be wasted on tundra, Yosemite can. Yosemite's food is usually needed just to make tundra viable, it's not a bonus by comparison. Piopiotahi gives Culture which yield for yield is better than Science, and gives more of it anyway.

    The volcano I can't spell is better than Yosemite. The eruptions are not normally that damaging and they make the tiles pretty darn good, plus the Culture is strong. It probably isn't better than Piopiotahi but that's not the comparison that people are trying to make here.

    Ik-Kil would actually be my choice after Yosemite. I agree with those saying that it has an odd window of usefulness. Early on I want yields *now* and not slightly faster districts, later on faster districts is minor additional gains on your 11th city or whatever. It has a window when it's very useful but it doesn't have the sustained use of +10 Culture or +8 Production or whatever (not that TdP necessarily gives that much but you get the point).

    TdP, Pio, Paititi are my top 3 from what remains.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  9. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Mine too, with Mount Roraima a tad behind.

    Ik-Kil [11] 14-3: a top 10 finish makes sense but it's not in the same league as the ones mentioned above, you can struggle to make full use of it as has been noted.

    Piopiotahi [8] 7+1: This is an S tier wonder languishing on 7 points, and I don't understand why. Culture is a tough yield to get and if you find it early can really start a snowball.


    Eyjafjallajökull [12]
    Ik-Kil [11]
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [34]
    Piopiotahi [8]
    Torres del Paine [15]
    Yosemite [5]
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
    CrabHelmet likes this.
  10. xaiviax

    xaiviax Chieftain Supporter

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    May 21, 2013
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    85
    Eyjafjallajökull [9] (12-3) At this level hurt by the snow/tundra bias.
    Ik-Kil [11]
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [35] (34+1) Clearly stands alone as the best.
    Piopiotahi [8]
    Torres del Paine [15]
    Yosemite [5]
     
  11. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
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    716
    I like Eyja more than Ik-kil. I agree in thinking Pio deserves top 3 and at least top 5. I'll still hold to my principle and let Yosemite hang around. But when it comes time another point is that Pio has 3 double-dip tiles while Yosemite only has 2.

    Eyjafjallajökull [9]
    Ik-Kil [8]
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [35]
    Piopiotahi [9]
    Torres del Paine [15]
    Yosemite [5]
     
  12. Cpt Chaos

    Cpt Chaos Chieftain

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    Nov 22, 2013
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    35
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Ik-Kil [8-3=5] I upvoted it fairly recently on the basis that it is one of the few wonders that can be consequential after the early game. However, it is the least useful early, and additional arguments regarding resources blocking tiles have convinced me that it is time for Ik-Kil to go.
    Piopiotahi [9+1=10] I'd rather have this than Eyjafjallajökull, and it's also on average going to be better than Yosemite. It would actually be interesting for a test to be done between this and Yosemite, but it might be tough to set up.

    Eyjafjallajökull [9]
    Ik-Kil [5]
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [35]
    Piopiotahi [10]
    Torres del Paine [15]
    Yosemite [5]
     
    lotrmith likes this.
  13. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
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    1,193
    Yosemite (5+1=6) Adding 10 food to an already decent wonder (as the GS changes did) makes it a great one.
    Torres del Paine (15-3=12) In a position where it's boosting lots of plains and hills, this probably deserves second place. Averaging in the possibilities of weaker positions, though, I think this falls below Roraima and more even with the other remaining wonders.

    Eyjafjallajökull [9]
    Ik-Kil [5]
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [35]
    Piopiotahi [10]
    Torres del Paine [12]
    Yosemite [6]
     
  14. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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    I think the wonders here well-deserved their place. Their final placing would just be a matter of preference.
    Eyjafjallajökull [9]
    Ik-Kil [2] (5-3) Repeating downvote because I think I still prefer yields over Ik-kils production bonus.
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [35]
    Piopiotahi [10]
    Torres del Paine [12]
    Yosemite [7] (6+1) Pre-august patch yosemite is rather lackluster, no better than tsingy. The extra food it gives makes it rather desirable to work yosemite tiles.
     
  15. JJOne

    JJOne Prince

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    Jan 29, 2011
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    377
    Ik-Kil [OUT](2-3) Not good enough.

    Eyjafjallajökull [10](9+1) A push for the last remaining european wonder.
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [35]
    Piopiotahi [10]
    Torres del Paine [12]
    Yosemite [7]
     
  16. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    146
    Eyjafjallajökull [7] (10-3) All great wonders. But tundra & volcano damage sits this below the others.

    Païtiti [36] (35+1) Nothing more to be said.

    Eyjafjallajökull [7] (10-3)

    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [36] (35+1)
    Piopiotahi [10]
    Torres del Paine [12]
    Yosemite [7]
     
  17. cylenalag

    cylenalag Chieftain

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    Païtiti [37] (36+1) Makes getting a gold-based economy so easy you’d swear it was cheating! The culture and adjacency bonuses to theater squares and commercial hubs is just a nice bonus.

    Eyjafjallajökull [4] (7-3): We’ve already knocked off Kilimanjaro and Vesuvius, so let’s knock off the last volcano left as well. While the culture is nice, we’ve knocked off other culture-giving + food-giving wonders as well like Pantanal. Also unlike Ik-Kil which went a little too soon, it can do some damage, though infrequently.


    Eyjafjallajökull [4]
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [37]
    Piopiotahi [10]
    Torres del Paine [12]
    Yosemite [7]
     
  18. xaiviax

    xaiviax Chieftain Supporter

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    Eyjafjallajökull [1] Was a detractor of the other two volcanoes. This not so much for the magma, but more for the ice and snow.
    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [38] (37+1) Broken, brings a Deity game down to Emperor.
    Piopiotahi [10]
    Torres del Paine [12]
    Yosemite [7]
     
  19. Cpt Chaos

    Cpt Chaos Chieftain

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    Eyjafjallajökull [1-3=-2] ELIMINATED Not much to say, time to go.
    Païtiti [38+1=39] I think the order for the remaining wonders is probably correct, so no point upvoting anything else.

    Mount Roraima [24]
    Païtiti [39]
    Piopiotahi [10]
    Torres del Paine [12]
    Yosemite [7]
     
  20. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    716
    Glad to see the list back on track. With Pio in clear disability to make top 3, and Yosemite also on the way out, I feel now compelled to try to balance Torres against Roraima. I strongly believe Roraima is a trap that most players don't realize they have fallen into. Faith is great to secure a pantheon early but after that you don't want to sacrifice food and production for faith. Early science, without the production to make use of it, is also a trap. Consider if you could start the game with the tech tree complete, districts would cost 1000% (ie 540 production for a Holy Site or Campus) and you'd have no population or production to build them, nor would you have the gold, faith, or production to produce any units.

    On the other hand, you can practically never have enough production, or food for that matter (as food essentially converts to production as population grows and works more tiles). Production, and by extension Food, are the two most critical early resources. Torres tiles literally count as though each one worked acts as if you have twice the population.

    It's crazy good and should be #2 if not #1.

    Mount Roraima [21]
    Païtiti [39]
    Piopiotahi [10]
    Torres del Paine [13]
    Yosemite [7]
     
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