Naval Battles?

[Sturmgewher88mm]

Has anyone seen fleet-on-fleet action? I usually only see the AI build a few scout ships and not much more, while I'll build a 7-ship fleet and clear the seas unopposed.

 

[Browd]

Naval combat is much improved in G&K and BNW, but the AI still struggles.

 

[Sturmgewher88mm]

Naval combat is much improved in G&K and BNW, but the AI still struggles.

What improvements are there? And do they still struggle with the importance of having a strong navy?

 

[Browd]

Starts with a complete revamp of the combat system generally, including a 100 HP system (considerable improvement over 10 HP in vanilla) for land, naval and air units. For naval combat, naval units are divided into melee and ranged (everything is ranged in vanilla) and there are new naval units. All comes in G&K, but appears also in BNW.

 

[Sid Simelia]

Just wanted to add, you will see fleets in G+K, unlike in vanilla where you often just see one unit hanging out by itself. Water based civs will have 4-6 triremes just hanging out in the water ready to defend the cities, and if they are trying to take a city from you they can walk in with a melee naval unit, there is no need to walk in with amphibious land units.
Also you can stack an embarked land unit with a naval unit and land units aren't completely defenseless in the water.

 

[fuzzatron717]

Plus I noticed in BNW the AI tends to be more smarter in Naval battles they bring quality and quantity now they all they have to do is stop separating their fleet or putting aircraft carriers in the front.

 

[Walter R]

Yeah the AI was a bit rubbish at naval in Vanilla. In G&K it is greatly improved but still it repeatedly does three things badly:

1. Fails to use the range advantage well, usually closes for broadsides.
2. Concentrates on one ship and usually only one when it could also attack others in the same turn - by that I mean it often sort of stops after one engagement, whereas a human player would usually want to attack with every unit that could each turn. I think it may be because it over-prioritises ZOC? Either way it tries for easy kills rather than neutralising the main threats (just like AI land warfare), not allowing for the fact that naval units can't just fortify and heal.
3. Leaves its GA's in port! (the amount of times I've wiped out a fleet then sailed into the harbour to find a GA sat in the city doing nothing)

But yes it does build big fleets and if you enjoy large-scale naval battles you can definitely get some in G&K - I had a cracker with the Ottoman navy in a game a while back where there must have been upwards of 30 ships in total (he outnumbered me by quite a margin but a lot of it was junk, whereas mine were mainly SOTL and a few privateers); and that was at Prince.

For me the change to melee and ranged was a massive improvement, that and the fact that Frigates/SOTL upgrade to battleships not destroyers. There's room for improvement (e.g GA function/movement) but it is seriously better than Vanilla.

 

[Jampine]

I have noticed in BNW that the AI is better for naval combat. In one game, I saw Portugal moving a navy of about 10 ships and some units to attack a foe, and in the same game, Greece was being a bit problematic during my assault on them, as they controlled a strait between their main continent, and another where they had some cities (and so did I, which is why my attack started there) Problem was, I couldn't cross because they had a 1 tile city island in the middle, and a few privateers patrolling the waters. However, this didn't last long after I rush bought some battleships and destroyed, and upgraded my planes to regular bombers. However, this was quite fun as it presented a challenge, which can't be said for the rest of my conquest into Greece(the remaining 8 cities took about 14 turns to capture, which was quite fun towards the end as I was popping a city a turn )

 

[Callonia]

Ok some things first, I have seen one massive naval battle after several years of Playing Civ 5, just one. Armada vs Armada type, Everything else was small. It occurred in Gods n Kings. Difficulty is King.

Then there's two things that made this particular playthrough different from other usual civ 5 games, is that it's modded. Just a little bit really nothing fancy.

(its funny watching how BNW broke this save, I have extreme unhappy but is currently in golden age because I was in one but then I stopped playing this map cuz BNW came out and I wanted to play BNW.)

1) An custom map script to make awe inspiring worlds compared to boring looking worlds that firaxis is fond of. Heck, I once accidentally got a randomly generated Tera online map complete with a slash across the whole world with landmasses affected by it. Awe inspiring maps make me play to the end because I want to see the world instead of already knowing everything.

2) I changed one simple thing in Gods n Kings, 0 unhappiness per population point to make human empires competitive against AI empires that running off their happiness cheats. And then I wanted to be fair and not a cheater so i gave that boost to the AI too.

Two of things I modified equals to empire sized wars. How you say? Let me indulge you..

I was running with 400+ Happiness while Hiawatha the eternal runaway was running at 700-900 happiness I forgot exact amount. Its been months since i played this map.

I was enjoying semi-perpetual golden ages while Hiawatha was in almost permanent golden ages.

Hiawatha did so many things that I didn't think the AI in civ 5 was capable of.. it felt like it was civ 4 for a moment there.

First, Hiawatha concerted an dogpile against me twice I suspect, he was publicly involved in the second dogpile, teh first dogpile ended in failure after combined navy fleets of Mongolia, England, Netherlands, and Korea couldn't beat me in submission. This was the only time I ever had a citadel be useful and act like an coastal fortress firing on renaissance era ships with my renaissance era ships xD Fun it was. was like something 30 frigates/privateers/caravels and a single coastal fortress manned by longswordmen vs 50+ combined Line of the ships, caravels , frigates, privateers.

We quarreled for control of the island with citadel in it which was protecting the chokepoint into the heartland of my empire which was where my capital is plus five other core metropolises.

Then later into the modern era, hiawatha stepped up and began to enjoy a victorious war against netherlands, I kid you not, Hiawatha pulled off an successful oversea invasion, he actually send enough units to do the job even with Nuclear missles being lobbed everywhere. i think he backstabbed netherlands because he determined that netherland is useless because netherlands kept on failing to kill me on Hiawatha's request every single time. So he was like, okay time to remove the useless ally so that he'll be able to assault me directly.

I was watching yellow land becoming grey. And then nuclear fallout began to form, and I rushed over my German lake armadas and combined them into a single massive armada of 100 ships and shoved them into where Hiawatha was landing onto the Netherlands part of the continent with me.

I launched dessys, battleships, aircraft carriers expecting a ezmode victory.

I did manage to take hiawatha by surprise. Killed all the ships supporting the land invasions, i suspect they were remnants because they was damaged but still alive. I also brought a bunch of land units, this enraged Hiawatha, because he went nuts.

Immediately after sending his invasion fleet to davy jone's locker. Hiawatha whipped out his real armada.

First wave! ...
Second wave! ... omg
Third!
Four!
fifth!
sixth!
seventh!
eighth!
Arrgghh ninth!
Tenth!
eleventh QQ moar me.
12th!
13th!
14th!
15th! Frak this horsehockye.

At this point, every single dessys I had brought has been sunk by combined Hiawatha's subs, dessys, battleships, missle cruisers, and stealth bombers from his mainland. And worse, hiawatha actually prioritized sinking my Privateer Dessys, i only have one left because I actually hid it deep far away and safe from hiawatha ships.

I was watching my grey blob shrink to hiawatha's blob. I think hiawatha sent well in excess about 200-300 ships. I didn't count.

Soon after all dessys was sunk and freshly arrived dessys was getting dinged up by constant reinforcements and I actually lost a highly promoted Battleship at this point It had triple naval effect, logistics, range and repair, and some moar promos and even started on land unit bombing promo.

But at same time, hiawatha finally ran out of steam too and offered ceasefire. I checked to make sure, there was random stragglers instead of a solid grey blob like usual.

I took it to take advantage of it to replenish my once formerly huge armada. Don't wanna risk my highly promoted to angry iroquois stealth bombers just waiting for me to move into range to be bombed. I ran out of steam too, Pointless to invade without antiair protection after I saw how much stealth bombers I saw bombing me.

And here, this is all that's left of my armada +reinforcements that set out to do battle with iroquois. I have reinforcements enroute but dude, this is the first time that I set out to do an successful naval invasion only to be blunted in civ5. xD

Spoiler :

Here ends the only successful Navy fleet I have ever seen from the AI. And that only required a simple change in the abominable mechanic introduced in civ 5 series. The horrible happiness system. Apparently it hurts the AI too very badly like humans.

 

[Sturmgewher88mm]

Ok some things first, I have seen one massive naval battle after several years of Playing Civ 5, just one. Armada vs Armada type, Everything else was small. It occurred in Gods n Kings. Difficulty is King.

Then there's two things that made this particular playthrough different from other usual civ 5 games, is that it's modded. Just a little bit really nothing fancy.

(its funny watching how BNW broke this save, I have extreme unhappy but is currently in golden age because I was in one but then I stopped playing this map cuz BNW came out and I wanted to play BNW.)

1) An custom map script to make awe inspiring worlds compared to boring looking worlds that firaxis is fond of. Heck, I once accidentally got a randomly generated Tera online map complete with a slash across the whole world with landmasses affected by it. Awe inspiring maps make me play to the end because I want to see the world instead of already knowing everything.

2) I changed one simple thing in Gods n Kings, 0 unhappiness per population point to make human empires competitive against AI empires that running off their happiness cheats. And then I wanted to be fair and not a cheater so i gave that boost to the AI too.

Two of things I modified equals to empire sized wars. How you say? Let me indulge you..

I was running with 400+ Happiness while Hiawatha the eternal runaway was running at 700-900 happiness I forgot exact amount. Its been months since i played this map.

I was enjoying semi-perpetual golden ages while Hiawatha was in almost permanent golden ages.

Hiawatha did so many things that I didn't think the AI in civ 5 was capable of.. it felt like it was civ 4 for a moment there.

First, Hiawatha concerted an dogpile against me twice I suspect, he was publicly involved in the second dogpile, teh first dogpile ended in failure after combined navy fleets of Mongolia, England, Netherlands, and Korea couldn't beat me in submission. This was the only time I ever had a citadel be useful and act like an coastal fortress firing on renaissance era ships with my renaissance era ships xD Fun it was. was like something 30 frigates/privateers/caravels and a single coastal fortress manned by longswordmen vs 50+ combined Line of the ships, caravels , frigates, privateers.

We quarreled for control of the island with citadel in it which was protecting the chokepoint into the heartland of my empire which was where my capital is plus five other core metropolises.

Then later into the modern era, hiawatha stepped up and began to enjoy a victorious war against netherlands, I kid you not, Hiawatha pulled off an successful oversea invasion, he actually send enough units to do the job even with Nuclear missles being lobbed everywhere. i think he backstabbed netherlands because he determined that netherland is useless because netherlands kept on failing to kill me on Hiawatha's request every single time. So he was like, okay time to remove the useless ally so that he'll be able to assault me directly.

I was watching yellow land becoming grey. And then nuclear fallout began to form, and I rushed over my German lake armadas and combined them into a single massive armada of 100 ships and shoved them into where Hiawatha was landing onto the Netherlands part of the continent with me.

I launched dessys, battleships, aircraft carriers expecting a ezmode victory.

I did manage to take hiawatha by surprise. Killed all the ships supporting the land invasions, i suspect they were remnants because they was damaged but still alive. I also brought a bunch of land units, this enraged Hiawatha, because he went nuts.

Immediately after sending his invasion fleet to davy jone's locker. Hiawatha whipped out his real armada.

First wave! ...
Second wave! ... omg
Third!
Four!
fifth!
sixth!
seventh!
eighth!
Arrgghh ninth!
Tenth!
eleventh QQ moar me.
12th!
13th!
14th!
15th! Frak this horsehockye.

At this point, every single dessys I had brought has been sunk by combined Hiawatha's subs, dessys, battleships, missle cruisers, and stealth bombers from his mainland. And worse, hiawatha actually prioritized sinking my Privateer Dessys, i only have one left because I actually hid it deep far away and safe from hiawatha ships.

I was watching my grey blob shrink to hiawatha's blob. I think hiawatha sent well in excess about 200-300 ships. I didn't count.

Soon after all dessys was sunk and freshly arrived dessys was getting dinged up by constant reinforcements and I actually lost a highly promoted Battleship at this point It had triple naval effect, logistics, range and repair, and some moar promos and even started on land unit bombing promo.

But at same time, hiawatha finally ran out of steam too and offered ceasefire. I checked to make sure, there was random stragglers instead of a solid grey blob like usual.

I took it to take advantage of it to replenish my once formerly huge armada. Don't wanna risk my highly promoted to angry iroquois stealth bombers just waiting for me to move into range to be bombed. I ran out of steam too, Pointless to invade without antiair protection after I saw how much stealth bombers I saw bombing me.

And here, this is all that's left of my armada +reinforcements that set out to do battle with iroquois. I have reinforcements enroute but dude, this is the first time that I set out to do an successful naval invasion only to be blunted in civ5. xD

Spoiler :

Here ends the only successful Navy fleet I have ever seen from the AI. And that only required a simple change in the abominable mechanic introduced in civ 5 series. The horrible happiness system. Apparently it hurts the AI too very badly like humans.

That is what I was looking for. Thanks!

 

[Walter R]

OK I guess it all depends on what you consider a naval battle! Callonia's tale is awesome but I've certainly never seen anything like that. I play as England quite a lot because I like naval Civs, and personally I consider naval 'battles' to be engagements involving more than say 5 or 6 ships a side - not two caravels taking it in turns to pop at each other but nor yet 100 ships a side covering the water tiles as far as the eye can see. On that basis I've had many enjoyable naval battles and countless skirmishes, but I think the cases where the AI fleet was bigger than about 20 were few indeed. My fleet rarely exceeds about 10 (depends on who the other Civs are) because by the time Flight comes along the nature of combat changes, just like in the real world - however, I've never played Epic and Marathon so I may be missing a dimension.

EDIT: Oh and of course in the mid-game I'm capturing most if not all of the enemy cities using my navy exclusively, and some of those battles are real nail-biters if you haven't got a nearby allied CS to go heal in.

 

[DemonMaster]

I went into an Atomic Era war with Japan (beta-patch) and had to retreat because he had sooooo many ships and also carriers with zeros and bombers. My thought when I saw my tiny little fleet (aprox. 1/4 in size of his with no land air within reach) I withdraw and eventually got a nice draw. Later in the same game I got my first jet fighter duel (also vs. Japan). Naval combat happens a lot more in G&K +, perhaps not these extreme battles so often but you can't be without a navy in G&K+ (unless landlocked).

 

[Callonia]

You're welcome sturm, I can show you a screenshot of citadel where the renaissance naval battle took place if you want to.

 

[Sturmgewher88mm]

You're welcome sturm, I can show you a screenshot of citadel where the renaissance naval battle took place if you want to.

That'd be awesome!

 

[Astennu]

Ok some things first, I have seen one massive naval battle after several years of Playing Civ 5, just one. Armada vs Armada type, Everything else was small. It occurred in Gods n Kings. Difficulty is King.......

Wow, were there altered settings for this game besides the happiness?

Never seen an AI build hundreds of ships.

 

[General McUgly]

Ok some things first, I have seen one massive naval battle after several years of Playing Civ 5, just one. Armada vs Armada type, Everything else was small. It occurred in Gods n Kings. Difficulty is King.

Then there's two things that made this particular playthrough different from other usual civ 5 games, is that it's modded. Just a little bit really nothing fancy.

(its funny watching how BNW broke this save, I have extreme unhappy but is currently in golden age because I was in one but then I stopped playing this map cuz BNW came out and I wanted to play BNW.)

1) An custom map script to make awe inspiring worlds compared to boring looking worlds that firaxis is fond of. Heck, I once accidentally got a randomly generated Tera online map complete with a slash across the whole world with landmasses affected by it. Awe inspiring maps make me play to the end because I want to see the world instead of already knowing everything.

2) I changed one simple thing in Gods n Kings, 0 unhappiness per population point to make human empires competitive against AI empires that running off their happiness cheats. And then I wanted to be fair and not a cheater so i gave that boost to the AI too.

Two of things I modified equals to empire sized wars. How you say? Let me indulge you..

I was running with 400+ Happiness while Hiawatha the eternal runaway was running at 700-900 happiness I forgot exact amount. Its been months since i played this map.

I was enjoying semi-perpetual golden ages while Hiawatha was in almost permanent golden ages.

Hiawatha did so many things that I didn't think the AI in civ 5 was capable of.. it felt like it was civ 4 for a moment there.

First, Hiawatha concerted an dogpile against me twice I suspect, he was publicly involved in the second dogpile, teh first dogpile ended in failure after combined navy fleets of Mongolia, England, Netherlands, and Korea couldn't beat me in submission. This was the only time I ever had a citadel be useful and act like an coastal fortress firing on renaissance era ships with my renaissance era ships xD Fun it was. was like something 30 frigates/privateers/caravels and a single coastal fortress manned by longswordmen vs 50+ combined Line of the ships, caravels , frigates, privateers.

We quarreled for control of the island with citadel in it which was protecting the chokepoint into the heartland of my empire which was where my capital is plus five other core metropolises.

Then later into the modern era, hiawatha stepped up and began to enjoy a victorious war against netherlands, I kid you not, Hiawatha pulled off an successful oversea invasion, he actually send enough units to do the job even with Nuclear missles being lobbed everywhere. i think he backstabbed netherlands because he determined that netherland is useless because netherlands kept on failing to kill me on Hiawatha's request every single time. So he was like, okay time to remove the useless ally so that he'll be able to assault me directly.

I was watching yellow land becoming grey. And then nuclear fallout began to form, and I rushed over my German lake armadas and combined them into a single massive armada of 100 ships and shoved them into where Hiawatha was landing onto the Netherlands part of the continent with me.

I launched dessys, battleships, aircraft carriers expecting a ezmode victory.

I did manage to take hiawatha by surprise. Killed all the ships supporting the land invasions, i suspect they were remnants because they was damaged but still alive. I also brought a bunch of land units, this enraged Hiawatha, because he went nuts.

Immediately after sending his invasion fleet to davy jone's locker. Hiawatha whipped out his real armada.

First wave! ...
Second wave! ... omg
Third!
Four!
fifth!
sixth!
seventh!
eighth!
Arrgghh ninth!
Tenth!
eleventh QQ moar me.
12th!
13th!
14th!
15th! Frak this horsehockye.

At this point, every single dessys I had brought has been sunk by combined Hiawatha's subs, dessys, battleships, missle cruisers, and stealth bombers from his mainland. And worse, hiawatha actually prioritized sinking my Privateer Dessys, i only have one left because I actually hid it deep far away and safe from hiawatha ships.

I was watching my grey blob shrink to hiawatha's blob. I think hiawatha sent well in excess about 200-300 ships. I didn't count.

Soon after all dessys was sunk and freshly arrived dessys was getting dinged up by constant reinforcements and I actually lost a highly promoted Battleship at this point It had triple naval effect, logistics, range and repair, and some moar promos and even started on land unit bombing promo.

But at same time, hiawatha finally ran out of steam too and offered ceasefire. I checked to make sure, there was random stragglers instead of a solid grey blob like usual.

I took it to take advantage of it to replenish my once formerly huge armada. Don't wanna risk my highly promoted to angry iroquois stealth bombers just waiting for me to move into range to be bombed. I ran out of steam too, Pointless to invade without antiair protection after I saw how much stealth bombers I saw bombing me.

And here, this is all that's left of my armada +reinforcements that set out to do battle with iroquois. I have reinforcements enroute but dude, this is the first time that I set out to do an successful naval invasion only to be blunted in civ5. xD

Spoiler :

Here ends the only successful Navy fleet I have ever seen from the AI. And that only required a simple change in the abominable mechanic introduced in civ 5 series. The horrible happiness system. Apparently it hurts the AI too very badly like humans.

I'm not too sure if you're lucky or SoL there.

Did you exchange some nukes as well? I noticed some fallout near your cities...and I don't think I've ever fought an AI with nukes yet. I usually try to take them down before they can get to that point, and make sure they don't have uranium by endgame.

 

[Callonia]

Wow, were there altered settings for this game besides the happiness?

Never seen an AI build hundreds of ships.

No other alteration has been done which only further the point that happiness system in Civ 5 is just horrible.

That'd be awesome!

Ok Pic incoming.

I'm not too sure if you're lucky or SoL there.

Did you exchange some nukes as well? I noticed some fallout near your cities...and I don't think I've ever fought an AI with nukes yet. I usually try to take them down before they can get to that point, and make sure they don't have uranium by endgame.

Nah, the cities I have under control in the screenshot that you saw used to belong to dying greeks then Hiawatha went and took them from greeks and kicked them out of the game in the renaissance era.

And finally, After awhile and iroquois backstab netherlands for failing to hurt me so hiawatha deemed netherlands useless and used the ex greek cities as base for his invading fleet to operate from and began to expand from there everywhere. At this point, half of netherlands became Iroquois territory and that's where the nuclear exchange came from. Iroquois and netherlands went nuts nuking each other.

Then I went berserk and attacked iroquois cuz I didn't want to let him have a doorstep to my homeland so easily and succeeded at that. Netherland managed to reclaim all of their lost cities back and I took formerly Greek Iroquois colonies. This war made me and Netherlands Friends for the first time in thousands of years. In the past, we've always hissed at each other.

Anyways, here's the citadel.

Spoiler :

That is the site of Germany vs Netherlands, England, Mongolia renaissance naval battle. Korea was involved but he fought my west coast cuz he don't have access to my germany lake yet at this point of time.

Netherlands' ships focused on the east channel and that's where they got raked by citadel every turn as I had nothing but privateers spamming fortify every turn just to block them from being able to assault Sunblade City so that Citadel could do it's job.

And for every single Mech Infantry, Panzer, and Antitank guns that you see in the screenshot... they used to be landsknechts, knights and Longswordmen. And they still haven't moved from their defense positions in classical/medieval era. That's how hotly contested this spot is.

And as for the west coast, I had frigates/privateers running out there to squish Netherlands then I saw English and Mongolian ships moving in together after me so I went nuts cuz I want Ship of the Line and attacked them, I succeeded in capturing three of them but the English managed to sink one of them however, I got two and dragged them to safety behind citadel to repair them up.

I was having caravels and Privateers sail to the frontlines as ship of the lines and frigates bombarded the enemy ships that parked at the hex in front of the two fish hexes that you can see, i rotated in fresh privateers, and frigates if i had to.

I emerged victorious.

Oh and Sunblade City was attacked over land five times for the whole game and won every time. Netherlands did try to take Sunblade city at same time as they moved their renaissance naval fleet after me too, my longswordmen and landsknechts and knights made sure Netherlands' troops didn't succeed at it.

It was only after the renaissance wars I was able to explore beyond this chokepoint xD

Cuz of all the wars and barbarian ships.

And uh, the defenses in there is much lighter than usual because I took a bunch of ships protecting there to go fight Iroquois with.

If there is any regrets I have, its that I didn't take screenshots of both wars while they was in progress.

 

[fuzzatron717]

Poor Byzantium and America they must be flipping scared with all those big empires around poor little guys .

 

[Callonia]

Poor Byzantium and America they must be flipping scared with all those big empires around poor little guys .

Byzantines is my buddies and i've been supplying them with advanced resources so that Hiawatha is forced to send big army to squash them instead of a little fleet of battleships plus a melee unit. IE byzantines can build battleships cuz of me xD

Byzantines got hit on their last city five times by hiawatha.

My Friends is Ottomans, Byzantines, Korea(Because i have troops parked outside of Seoul ready to take his capital if he turns on me.), Netherland is 50% friend 50% enemy. We trade and fight each other for fun.

Hiawatha alliance is Mongolia, England, Netherlands(Until Hiawatha backstabbed netherlands for failing to kill me.), Korea (he prefers hiawatha over me.), England.

I had swarms of WW2 Infantry which rescued Vatican city which was right in center of the conflict cuz it's in middle between me and Korea u can see it on minimap. Then the soldiers there made Korea change his mind and switch sides from Iroquois alliance to mine. Cuz if he stayed on Iroquois he would've lost his capital. I just keep the soldiers there to make sure he behaves. Ah heck, I'll give u a screenshot.
His is constantly patrolling to see if I leave Vatican City but no cigar for korea. XD

Spoiler :

Mongolia ate Ottomans, and I ate Mongolia in retaliation.

Independents is
China(Annexed by Germany.)
Greece(Annexed by Netherlands, Germany, Hiawatha at same time. Alexander got it coming to him for being a douche for whole game.)
Ethopia, they do their own thing. Dislikes Maya.
Maya, they do their own thing. Dislikes Byzantines and conquered all of byzantines. Dislikes Ethopia and is currently fighting a war against Ethiopia. And Ethiopia is winning.
Sweden, a lonely city state surrounded by iroquois and we still haven't met each other yet and satellites is up and he lost a war to hiawatha.
Netherlands also qualify as independent cuz he's not kissing hiawatha's butt anymore after that almost successful sea invasion. (He denounced hiawatha for being untrustworthy xD)

And it's not america, it's sweden in that game lol.

And since you mentioned stuff like that.... Mayans made an ominous city.

I've been eyeing it cuz of it's name and location....

I'm not sure but I suspect mayans is up to something in that city. And it's isolated on an distant hard to reach island....

Spoiler :

 

[Sturmgewher88mm]

Wow... That game had some depth!