Naval experts needed!

Steph

Steph

Multi Many Tasks man
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Here are the pages with the navy for my mod, including name and stats for the civilizations I already done.

Warning : lots of picture the pages can be long to load

Steel navy

Wooden navy

I'd like to have feedback about the unit name, organization, and stats.
 
It is good, that you asked for help, as here are some severe mistakes in! I am speaking only about the engined ships as the sailing ships I am not having that much knowledge.
Let's start with the categories of ships.
You have at first the iron clads and here you compare monitor style ships like USS Monitor or SMS Arminius with Armoured frigates like HMS Warrior. The terminus ironclad is used for small ships as well as battleships! That is comparing a light cruiser with a battleship! I suggest to make a split here in monitors and armoured frigates or better in monitors, armoured frigates and steam corvettes. Monitors for coastal warfare risking to be sunk on oceans (although the later US and CS monitors could cross the Atlantic as well as SMS Arminius), steam corvettes (here I know only the German terms of Glattdeckskorvette and Gedeckte Korvette) as cruiser and Armoured frigates finally as battleships. As examples, and here I suggest German ships as I have little infos about the other nations as I don't have Conway's of that time, what I suggest to look into it), SMS Arminius as monitor, SMS Augusta as steam corvette and SMS König Wilhelm as armoured frigate.
The same has to be said for pre ww1 ships. Here you should have much more categories again! At first you should take the predreadnought like Mikasa or SMS Deutschland as battleships, followed by armoured cruiser like SMS Scharnhorst and light cruiser like SMS Emden. Finally the first destroyer like the German type 1898.
The next step would be the dreadnoughts. HMS Dreadnought, SMS Nassau, Danton and so on are should be mentioned here (although Danton was not a real Dreadnought). followed by the battlecruiser like HMS Invincible and SMS von der Tann or SMS Moltke. These ships should be followed by more modern early ww1 ships like SMS Pillau as light cruiser or B 99 type destroyer or Novik class. Here the first submarines should be added, too, but no type VII but a U 19 class. Type VII was a ww2 successor of this type!
These ships are followed by late ww1 ships. SMS Bayern and the British R class should be mentioned here. As battle cruiser you should have the Tiger class or even HMS Hood or SMS Mackensen or SMS Yorck classes. For light cruiser you should add here ships like SMS Cöln (II) class and destroyer like type 1916. The German destroyer you have here is a type 1934/1936 ship for ww2 btw.! For the Germans you forgot the German carrier SMS Ausonia.
This should be followed by ww2 class ships. Here you should make a split of light and heavy cruiser. Also here you should replace the type XXI with the type VII. The type XXI should be a late ww2 tech. Like the Whiskey class for Russia. Which is indeed not more than an updated type XXI!
As super carrier you can add for Germany Europa.
Now you have to make another split with the modern forces. Here you should have three generations of destroyer and frigates. FGS Köln was for example a ship produced in 1960 and should not be compared with the Spruance class ships. Here I suggest to make 3 categories: 1945- 1965, 1965- 1985, 1985-... As example: FGS Köln, FGS Bremen, FGS Brandenburg as frigates and FGS Hamburg, FGS Lütjens and FGS Sachsen as destroyer. The same has to be said for the submarines as well. So the type XXI should be produced until about 1965 followed by the class 209 followed by the class 212 in 1990 about (the class was delayed due to budget reasons to 2002).

That were the categories. Now you have to look at the stats. No destroyer would be able to win a direct fight against a battleship! But the torpedoes are dangerous for the battleship.
So you should make it like this, as this is the scheme I use for AoI II: HP for tonnage, bonus/malus for some nations. Italy should get not equal ships to Britain for example. Attack should be depending on the caliber and number of guns carried. Defense should be 5 or 10 less generally to give the attacker a bonus. So you should have ranges from about 5- 30 for destroyer, 25- 45 for light cruiser, 40- 55 for heavy cruiser (which should be there in at least two generations), 35- 45 for armoured cruiser, 40- 200 for battleships. You have to see the stats of these ships for a final balancing. A Gangut class battleship could have sunk every ship up to a predreadnought. But any ww2 ship would be too much for her.
Bombardment is equal to the attack (for smaller ships like destroyer you should keep in mind the claiber of the torpedoes. So early destroyer with 45 cm tubes should have a bombardment of, let's say, 20 while 53,3 cm tubes 30 and Japanese long lance even 35 or 40!), the rate of fire depends on the number of heavy guns and torpedoes/ missiles. I suggest here the number of torpedo tubes halved. Except for submarines. They should have weak A/D but high bombardment and rof.
Then you got a highly balanced system.

Adler
 
Adler, this is all very interesting... Now I'm waiting for you to make nice animation for all the ships which are missing ;)
And hence it is an epic game, I cannot have that many upgrades. How many techs would I need to make 3 modern upgrades for the frigates?

As it's an epic game, I need to make some compromise. I already think that perhaps the WWII line is to complex.

I try to make the best of what is already existing. I cannot add as many units as you suggest, because there are to my knowledge no animation available.

A WWI BB has an A/D of 35/30 and +2 HP, with a bombardment of 12

A WWI destroyer has an A/D of 12/10, no HP bonus, and no bombardment.

So if the destroyer attacks, it has 12/(12+30) = 28% chance of damaging the BB. With a base HP of 4, it means 4 HP for the DD, 6 for the BB...
Chance of winning low... But a lucky torpedo is still possible

If the BB attacks, the chance of damaging are now 35/(35+10) = 78%.

It seems to me the DD is unlikely to win the confrontation.

If we follow your patern, and make a destroyer with 5 A/D and a BB with 40 A/D (your lowest settings), the destroyer has only 5/45 = 10% chance to damage the BB.

I'm afraid it would render the DD virtually useless. In that case, I wonder why one would built any DD. Doesn't it lead to a completly unbalanced game?
 
No. As the torpedo (missile) attack is simulated by the bombardment. For example: if you have a battleship with 35.000 ts and 1 HP= 2.500 ts you have 14 HP for this ship. Let's say it has an average A/D of 60/50. No boni for these ships btw. OTOH you have a destroyer of 4.000 ts. 2 HP, A/D 20/15. But it has 8 torpedoes with 53,3 cm caliber. So the bombardment would be 25 with a RoF of 4.
If such a ship attacks a battleship it would be sunk at once! It has a chance of 40 % to hit and most likely is sunk after the first 3 "shots". The battleship is only silghtly damaged. If making a torpedo attack (= bombardment) the destroyer has 4 "shots" with a propability of 50% hitting. So 2 HP are lost to the battleship. So you need an average of 7 destroyer for a battleship.
AI is on this way not going on suicide missions with destroyer but using the bombardment abilities very well! That are my and other's experiences by testing AoI II.
As historical "example" you could compare this with the battle the German battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau fought off Norway 1940 with HMS Glorious and her destroyers HMS Ardent and HMS Acasta. Both destroyer tried to rescue the carrier by attacking the battleships. One did it directly and was soon sunk by the 15 cm and 10,5 cm guns of the battleships. The other made a torpedo attack, of one hit Gneisenau.
Although all British ships were sunk we have here the results: Directly attacking destroyer are sunk. Torpedo attacks might be successful, but not so dangerously. Except more ships are used.
AI is acting this way!

Adler
 
"I want you to include all the ships that Wyrm never plans on making"

That's what I got from the essay.
 
This I understand:
'WWI BB has an A/D of 35/30 and +2 HP, with a bombardment of 12
A WWI destroyer has an A/D of 12/10, no HP bonus, and no bombardment.
So if the destroyer attacks, it has 12/(12+30) = 28% chance of damaging the BB.'

But what influence has the HP function?
 
The DD has 28% of damaging the BB, and so 62% to be damaged by the BB, for each battle round.

If the BB had 4 HP, the DD has 0.28^4 = 0.6% chance to sink the BB without taking any damage.

If the BB has 6 HP, the DD has only 0.04% chance to shink the BB without taking any damage.

Basically, by increasing the HP of a unit, you give it more "tries" to damage the other unit.
 
The land bombardment is indeed a problem. But on this way you have active land bombardment by the navies. Nevertheless this is a price to pay for this kind of system.
For other ships you have to use one graphics several times.

Adler
 
I throw in my 25 cent of value. Deflation took it down a nodge

However what must be thought on is that every unit-class must have ONE specific "task" for the AI to use it for.

Early DD the possibility to detect subs.
Battleships always the Big Dog in the fight.
Cruiser then perhaps as air-cover in WW2-days.
On and on, but as I recall the hard thing is to compare the real world with this game. One must stand to step away from real-life sometimes.

Consider the simple thing that a landunit A:A6/D2, and a landunit B: A2/D6 will be created, while if one have a landunit C: A4/D4 will IMHO hardly be created UNLESS it perhaps have fast movement of 2.

Am I out in deep water ;-)
 
Clipper only for Britain?

800px-Viermastbark_Passat_in_Travemuende-1.jpg
 
Where did you find an Aeromanches? I'e found an Arromanches.

Create a unit, name it Clemenceau, link it to the Arromanches... Et voila! Far from perfect, as the Arromanches is a colossus..

The Clemenceau is 32,000 tons vs the 13,000 of the Arromanches, and has two decks, contrary to the Arromanches

Arromanches
02_hms_colossus.jpg


Clemenceau
r98_b.jpg


but, well, it's a placeholder graphics until someone make a proper Clemenceau
 
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