Naval Promotions - 8/23

[Stalker0]

Its been a while, so I thought it was a good time to do a comprehensive look at naval promotions with the latest version. I'll use a simple rating system for summary.

A - Frequently used promotion
B - Infrequently used, very niche.
C - Almost never used, "garbage" promotion.

Melee Dreadnought Promotions

Spoiler :

Line Overall (B) - Even though its my favorite line of naval promotions overall, vulnerability to Boarded is an unacceptable risk in competitive naval combat (see my notes on BP II below). As such, I only get these promotions when I feel very safe with my navy.

Naval Siege (A) - Good solid promotion that does what you need, while you get it for the city killing, honestly the heal outside of territory is very useful for extended sieges.

Breacher (A) - One of my "work horse" promotions on the Dreadnought side. In naval combat, you tend to get a lot of kills very quickly (or take a lot of kills quickly). This both firms you up and lets you escalate your kill streak with a good amount of splash damage.

Press Gangs (A) - The secret to press gangs is to only use it on 1, maybe 2 ships. In that scenario, it is a BEAST! These ships are my spears, they are always the first in, attacking ships, attacking cities. Their ability to regenerate through pillages makes them incredibly tanky, especially once they get to things like Dauntless.

Blockade (C) - The bonus on Blockade seems nice, but there are so many other good promotions in the Dreadnought line. The general reduction with Dauntless is preferred over the ranged specific defense bonus, and the gold steal is just fluff at the times in the game you are really using this.

Vanguard (B) - This is the ultimate in dreadnought city taking promotions, but its a lot harder to get to than Naval Siege and also competes with Dauntless. I find I only use it in niche scenarios where I get the promotion and have a key city I need to take and don't have an enemy fleet to kill....vs naval siege where I can build ships out of the gate designed for city hitting if I need that. Nothing wrong with this promotion, I just find circumstances make it weaker than it might appear on paper.

Dauntless (A) - The only reason I don't get this all the time is because of how good other Dreadnought promotions are. Simply amazing.

Melee Boarding Party Promotions

Spoiler :

Line Overall (A) - Because of BP II, I take this line the most. Its not that I "want" to, I "have" to for that much needed protection.

Boarding Party II (A+++) - I specifically called this promotion out because I actually consider it the strongest naval promotion in the game. Even though in general I like the Dreadnought line more than Boarding Party, in competitive games I normally go the BP line because of this promotion. Immunity to boarding for melee ships is critical in real naval combat. There are so many times that the AI will sneak in and broadside me with a new death fleet, and if I don't have the ability to run away....I die. There is nothing in the game that can replace that...and so I actually use BP more than anything, just to get BP II.

Navigator I-II (A) - The perfect niche promotions that do exactly what you need them to do. During the Caravel "explore" phase, I will normally use these promotions for faster aid. During late game wars, its vital to have one "scout" ship with these promotions to watch for enemy fleets. And on occasion, I have used them with newly built ships that have a long way to go, as having a weaker ships 3 turns earlier is more important than a stronger but later one.

Medic (A) - I generally want 1 medic ship in my fleet, as it can make a big difference in recovery time.

Encirclement (A) - The "workhorse" promotion for the BP line, I find myself using it more and more as time goes in. Its quite easy to get 3 or even 4 of your buddies surrounding you when your attacking enemy ships, so this is the strongest attack naval promotion.

Piracy (C) - Every so often I will make a pirate ship as a closer, just to get the gold, but its normally for the fun of it than for any real combat purpose. The withdraw is nice but not something I rely on, compared to straight up more CS from BP II, or raw power from Encirclement.

Minelayer (X) - Honestly I can't remember the last time I took Minelayer, and so I'm curious what the community thinks. I feel that in theory this should be THE go to promotion for the AI, as again if they prevent me from running away I'm toast. But for the human, its a 25% CS swing compared to getting BP III, and normally the AI isn't running from me enough to warrant it.

Supply (C) - In theory this is an emergency "I HAVE to heal" type of promotion, but if I'm in that kind of crunch I will often just get Dreadnought I to give me some emergency hp and some actual CS. There just way better things to spend my XP on.

Blitz (A) - Honestly the ability to attack twice isn't that great, melee ships really have to conserve their HP, as they are your sole source of enemy crowd control. However, the ability to hit a target and then move back is a GODSEND. This is actually the best city attack promotion overall. What you say....not naval siege, not vanguard?

Its true you can't beat those promotions for raw damage, but honestly its not the city that is hurting my sieging ships, its the 2 fields guns in the back, and the Calvary that rain fire down on me. That's what often snipes a melee ship. So the ability to make an attack and then move back saves you so much more HP than the other promotions. Or, you can use it to allow other ships to come in and hit the same target, so your actually doing more damage overall.

Pincer (B) - I say its a B just for that once in a while time when negating ZOC is good. But realistically, Encirclement is a better "flanking" promotion in general, and blitz is just flat out better in many situations, or heck even just taking Dreadnought I gives me a nice CS boost and more HP. So its a low B at best.

Ranged General Promotions (aka that exist on both trees, as there are a lot of them).

Spoiler :

Sentry (D) - Yes a D. This means not only do I never use this, I actually feel sorry that the AI may sometimes fall into the trap of actually picking this promotion over something that has value. I'll be blunt, this promotion should not exist. Vision is a melee ship game, a Nav I melee ship has better vision and way better mobility than a sentry ranged ship.

If you want scouts, build melee ships...its that simple.

Mobility (C) - Movement is nice, but that's not what ranged ships are for. Sacrificing your offense and defense for a little more movement is not worth it.

Supply (C) - Ranged ships should be taking less fire than melee ships anyway, and again I wouldn't sacrifice offense or defense for this.

Logistics (A) - The crème de la crème of naval ranged promotions, the greatest force multiplier for a ranged unit. The fact that its Tier 5 now just makes it "always solid" instead of "omg give it to me now!"

Ranged Targeting Promotions

Spoiler :

Line Overall (A) - Still the workhorse line for ranged ships, just solid.

Indomitable (A) - Used to be a B, but now as a gateway to Logistics its seeing a lot more use, and its a good promotion overall.

Splash (A) - Also used to be a B, as logistics was generally the more tempting target. Now I find that I get splash on later ranged units that I don't think have the time to get to logistics, as its still a decent force multiplier in large naval battles which are quite common in the late game.

I think it would be interesting to try Splash as a Tier III promotion instead of IV, just to see how that dynamic shakes out.

Ranged Bombardment Promotions

Spoiler :

Line Overall (B) - This used to be a C, but with the logistics inclusion this line is a lot more appealing. Ultimately, city attacks are still much more niche than killing enemy ships and land units, that's where the bulk of naval ranged attacks go. So this line could never really be an A in that context. But this line now does its job well, and once I have secured everything else and just need a ship to come in and wreck cities, this line does its job.

Broadside (A) - Its often been a question before as to whether a Broadside ship was really doing more city damage than a Logistics Targeting. But now that this is also a gateway to logistics, there is no more debate, this is now the best line there is for dealing raw damage to a city.

Shrapnel Rounds (B) - Though I only give it a B, this is one of my favorite promotions design wise. Sometimes when your making a city killing ship, you realize that the land forces are too great, and that becomes your main focus. SR gives you such a strong a bonus against land units that it makes the transition away from your "role" worthwhile, so I appreciate the flexibility that this promotion offers.

 

[vyyt]

Nice summary. I think the only point where my opinion differs is the extra movement on ranged ships. I always take it, moving ships around quickly is very important - even more so on huge maps I play. And I don't want my ranged stay behind my melee too much. Also, great when you need to retreat from a stronger enemy fleet.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I would rate Mobility higher (B or A, if no additional movement GLighthouse/ Imperialism) on Naval Ranged, as they get outpaced by other Naval Units in movement.

Boarding Party is rather oppressive in naval combat.

I wouldn't say Splash I alone warrants an A, there is only 1 level of it.

 

[Gidoza]

Nice summary. I think the only point where my opinion differs is the extra movement on ranged ships. I always take it, moving ships around quickly is very important - even more so on huge maps I play. And I don't want my ranged stay behind my melee too much. Also, great when you need to retreat from a stronger enemy fleet.

Perhaps I could meet you both in the middle by suggesting that the extra movement promotion could help as a gateway to some of the stronger promotions (such as Logistics) - as in...you can take Logistics if you have the usual prerequisites, or if your ship is level 5 and you have Speed. That way, the promotion doesn't seem like as much of a waste even if it has its uses. Another alternative would be to buffer it with an additional 5% combat strength so it feels like a generic boost with a Speed focus.

 

[Stalker0]

Perhaps I could meet you both in the middle by suggesting that the extra movement promotion could help as a gateway to some of the stronger promotions (such as Logistics) - as in...you can take Logistics if you have the usual prerequisites, or if your ship is level 5 and you have Speed. That way, the promotion doesn't seem like as much of a waste even if it has its uses. Another alternative would be to buffer it with an additional 5% combat strength so it feels like a generic boost with a Speed focus.

Well before we start buffing it, the first two posts right after mine mention that they like mobility. Perhaps as vyyt noted, the map size can alter the usefulness of the promotion. Or...perhaps I simply underestimate it.

 

[Gidoza]

Well before we start buffing it, the first two posts right after mine mention that they like mobility. Perhaps as vyyt noted, the map size can alter the usefulness of the promotion. Or...perhaps I simply underestimate it.

I can experiment with it as well and see where it goes. For me this is in part a first-world problem seeing as I don't bother playing most games long enough to see the promotion in action...ranged naval are too hard to promote to that early on, so it's left to Military Academy 4th-level instant lameness do all the work later on.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I wonder if Minelayer should be on the Dreadnought side to give that side a way to slow enemy units down.

Something I ran in to is that Breacher works counter intuitively with Prize Ships. Since you capture then enemy boat, your unit does not advance and will not do the 15 dmg.

 

[pineappledan]

The submarine lines are further from polished, imo.

Wolfpack and it’s leaf promotions need another pass, and I think logistics can just be dropped from subs at this point.

 

[Gidoza]

So Stalker0 I was thinking about it and you're right...Boarding Party II offers too much bang for its buck. It's kind of pointless to have a promotion line that negates the effects of the same promotion line.

What if immunity to boarding was a specialized promotion that breaks off for Boarding Party II, and we give some other bonus to Boarding Party II to replace its departure?

 

[Asterix Rage]

Destroya and Missile Cruisa do not see Sub anymore? No bonus vs Sub either?
I just finish a game for tests. I didn't see any of them being Sub hunter like it was before.
Even those highly promoted at Info. Era.

Only Sub. can see Sub?

EDIT: Tests without ENW of course

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I don't see Anti-Sub Promotions in the Promotion Tree at all.

 

[Stalker0]

The submarine lines are further from polished, imo.

Wolfpack and it’s leaf promotions need another pass, and I think logistics can just be dropped from subs at this point.

Do you think Wolfpack is too strong, too weak, too unoriginal?

 

[pineappledan]

I think it blows targeting away. which is fine, but I’m not sure why were even trying to make both trees available to subs when 1 is obviously superior and actually designed for the unit.

 

[Stalker0]

I think it blows targeting away. which is fine, but I’m not sure why were even trying to make both trees available to subs when 1 is obviously superior and actually designed for the unit.

I agree with that, there is basically 0 reason to ever take targeting for a sub.

 

[Stalker0]

What if immunity to boarding was a specialized promotion that breaks off for Boarding Party II, and we give some other bonus to Boarding Party II to replace its departure?

So there are a few issues to consider here. The trick is that BP II is especially important for human players. AIs don't care as much because they don't run as often, they slam your fleets with theirs, and they can easily replace what is lost. So humans really really want this ability to negate boarding. So here are some adjustments you could try, and the consequence of each one.

1) Add a new "Immunity from Boarding" promotion (lets say a leaf off BP I to keep it at the same tech level), and then replace the bonus on BP II with something else.

In this case, humans will go BP I - > New Promotion, and AI will go BP I and II. Humans will lose out on the combat benefits of BP II, so a net loss for Humans.


2) Remove "Immunity from Boarding" entirely from BP line.

Without the ability to run from combat, human naval combat will get significantly harder. This will result in more complete fleet kills by the AI, as humans will inevitably get into a situation they wish to retreat and will be unable to do so.


3**) Add "Immunity from Boarding" to Dreadnought II (aka if you can't beat em, join em).

At this point, boarding is effectively only something you can do to ranged ships. That's not necessarily a bad idea, because honestly if your letting your ranged ships get hit by melee ships your "doing it wrong", so focusing the power of boarding there still gives it a niche.

That said, I think it would result in a complete flip of the naval lines. Dreadnought would become the dominant line, with boarding serving a more specialty "niche" role (which looking at its promotions I think its already more design that way, you have the pirate role, the medic, the offensive specialist with encirclement).

If we were going to change anything, this would probably be the idea I like the best.


4) Add a leaf "immunity from boarding" promotion off of Dreadnought I.

A weaker version of option 3, effectively you can go the dreadnought line for its normal uses (right now I mainly use dreadnought for defense, it can take a lot more damage and can plug up chokepoints in the coast pretty well), but if you wanted to take the ship out into the more open ocean you could take this promotion to give it protection.

It would probably help some, it would be the most limited change but would still in theory give Dreadnought some more options.


5) Shift the "Immunity from Boarding" benefit to Navigator I.

An alternate version 1. The idea here is that navigator is your "scout ship". So humans should be setting up scouts on the edges of their fleet to watch for enemy troops. This is the ship that in theory should get attacked first, so we give it the immunity so it can run away, while leaving core ships more vulnerable.

This would require an increase in human's naval skill, as the danger of a complete fleet kill just exists, you just have a better toolbox to handle it. You would likely also get the same scenario I mentioned in option 3, Dreadnought becomes dominant again, and BP is set up for niche uses.

Or...all humans just take Navigator I



Its a tough area to look at. Its funny I laugh because if you read my early comments from a year or so ago I was a complete Dreadnought-stan. I almost never used boarding party.

And then one day I gave BP a real try, and once I realized that almost inevitably in competitive naval games I was dealing with a "total fleet loss scenario"...that the ability to remove all of my ships from the scenario was just too good. The AI had gotten so good at side swipes and ambushes, that I could no longer afford the risk of having ships that couldn't get away.

 

[azum4roll]

I think everyone just subconsciously forgot about Carriers. They are naval units too!

 

[ElliotS]

If we want to change something then I'd move immunity to boarding to BP 3 or even add it to piracy, and give Dreadnaught a slight buff in CS or HP or Defense or something. Make dreadnought a bit more appealing and make immunity to boarding require more effort.

 

[Stalker0]

If we want to change something then I'd move immunity to boarding to BP 3 or even add it to piracy, and give Dreadnaught a slight buff in CS or HP or Defense or something. Make dreadnought a bit more appealing and make immunity to boarding require more effort.

This would weaken the human, as they are the ones that care about protection from boarding. Again I think dreadnought is very appealing for the AI, in fact I think it makes sense for the AI to use dreadnought more often. There is nothing mechanically weak about Dreadnought...its just that no bonus can match the fact that at some point I will likely lose ships if I'm not using BPII...and there is just no bonus in the world that compensates for that.

 

[Gidoza]

So there are a few issues to consider here. The trick is that BP II is especially important for human players. AIs don't care as much because they don't run as often, they slam your fleets with theirs, and they can easily replace what is lost. So humans really really want this ability to negate boarding. So here are some adjustments you could try, and the consequence of each one.

1) Add a new "Immunity from Boarding" promotion (lets say a leaf off BP I to keep it at the same tech level), and then replace the bonus on BP II with something else.

In this case, humans will go BP I - > New Promotion, and AI will go BP I and II. Humans will lose out on the combat benefits of BP II, so a net loss for Humans.


2) Remove "Immunity from Boarding" entirely from BP line.

Without the ability to run from combat, human naval combat will get significantly harder. This will result in more complete fleet kills by the AI, as humans will inevitably get into a situation they wish to retreat and will be unable to do so.


3**) Add "Immunity from Boarding" to Dreadnought II (aka if you can't beat em, join em).

At this point, boarding is effectively only something you can do to ranged ships. That's not necessarily a bad idea, because honestly if your letting your ranged ships get hit by melee ships your "doing it wrong", so focusing the power of boarding there still gives it a niche.

That said, I think it would result in a complete flip of the naval lines. Dreadnought would become the dominant line, with boarding serving a more specialty "niche" role (which looking at its promotions I think its already more design that way, you have the pirate role, the medic, the offensive specialist with encirclement).

If we were going to change anything, this would probably be the idea I like the best.


4) Add a leaf "immunity from boarding" promotion off of Dreadnought I.

A weaker version of option 3, effectively you can go the dreadnought line for its normal uses (right now I mainly use dreadnought for defense, it can take a lot more damage and can plug up chokepoints in the coast pretty well), but if you wanted to take the ship out into the more open ocean you could take this promotion to give it protection.

It would probably help some, it would be the most limited change but would still in theory give Dreadnought some more options.


5) Shift the "Immunity from Boarding" benefit to Navigator I.

An alternate version 1. The idea here is that navigator is your "scout ship". So humans should be setting up scouts on the edges of their fleet to watch for enemy troops. This is the ship that in theory should get attacked first, so we give it the immunity so it can run away, while leaving core ships more vulnerable.

This would require an increase in human's naval skill, as the danger of a complete fleet kill just exists, you just have a better toolbox to handle it. You would likely also get the same scenario I mentioned in option 3, Dreadnought becomes dominant again, and BP is set up for niche uses.

Or...all humans just take Navigator I



Its a tough area to look at. Its funny I laugh because if you read my early comments from a year or so ago I was a complete Dreadnought-stan. I almost never used boarding party.

And then one day I gave BP a real try, and once I realized that almost inevitably in competitive naval games I was dealing with a "total fleet loss scenario"...that the ability to remove all of my ships from the scenario was just too good. The AI had gotten so good at side swipes and ambushes, that I could no longer afford the risk of having ships that couldn't get away.

From these options, I like #1 best. I don't mind things being a little harder for humans - but that's the thing, the AI does *NOT* always have superior naval power - and if the odds are about even or if I have the heavier strength, I might very well ignore that boarding promotion. Sort of like I ignore movement, sight, amphibious, minelayer.............................

 

[ElliotS]

This would weaken the human, as they are the ones that care about protection from boarding. Again I think dreadnought is very appealing for the AI, in fact I think it makes sense for the AI to use dreadnought more often. There is nothing mechanically weak about Dreadnought...its just that no bonus can match the fact that at some point I will likely lose ships if I'm not using BPII...and there is just no bonus in the world that compensates for that.

I know they would weaken the human. I don't really see that as a problem. I constantly see people talking about losing to the AI's navy and stuff, but I just never seem to have that issue. Personally I would be happy with no change, as I seem to do fine with some combination of BP and Dreadnaught ships. I agree that as a player you generally lose more units at sea to alpha strikes than on land because of the vastly greater mobility, but that's just because naval warfare is a game that greatly favors the attacker. I feel like players can generally catch the AI out better than the AI can catch the player, so I don't really see an issue.

Mind you I haven't played too many naval games lately, so I'll try to play a archipelago warmonger game later and see if my thoughts change.