Naval re-balance

[Optimizer]

I am thinking of editing the game's naval system. I would like to have smoother progress. Right now, everything comes with Astronomy.

Here are some of my ideas:

* Embarking with Pottery, at only 1 movement step. This allows early exploration of islands, but does not make embarking a viable option until later.
* Work boats abolished, embarked Workers do their job instead.
* Sailing increases embarked speed to 2. Optics increases it to 3, making ship travel the preferred mode of long-distance transportation until the advent of railroads.
* The Galley available to all civs with Optics, upgrades to Ironclad. The Galley has a melee attack, so it beats the Trireme and the Caravel, but it cannot bombard. The barbarians use Triremes.
* Introducing the Caravel with Compass, without sight bonus. This allows a period of peaceful exploration and diplomacy without invasion. Uncovering the map takes longer.
* Steam Power increases embarking speed to 4, as usual.
* Satellites increase embarking speed to 5.

What do you think?

 

[Paasky]

I especially like abolishing work boats. I mean the CiV team spent ages removing tons of extra complexity (some of which was fun to have, like the UN resolutions) but then decided to keep the completely useless work boats.

If you can make the workers work while embarked that would be great.

 

[Optimizer]

I also consider more terrain improvements on coastal squares.

Fishing boats could be available at any coastal hex, giving +1 food, +2 with Biology.

Lighthouses could be transformed into terrain improvements for coastal hexes, giving -1 food, +1 production and some defense bonus.

 

[Optimizer]

Here is the suggested strength redistribution:

Trireme - Strength: 4, Ranged: 4, movement: 4
Galley - Strength: 12, movement: 4
Caravel - Strength: 8, Ranged: 4, movement: 6, can move after combat
Frigate - Strength: 15, Ranged: 10, movement: 5, +1 sight
Ship of the Line - Strength: 30, Ranged: 20, movement: 4, +1 sight
Ironclad - Strength: 40, Ranged: 15, movement: 4
Destroyer - Strength: 35, Ranged: 25, movement: 8, +3 sight, bonus against aircraft and subs, can move after combat.

England loses one unique unit, but is compensated by a unique city improvement, the Trading Company. It replaces the Harbor, and gives one more of each resource near the city.

 

[Abremms]

I would be sad to see the Ship of the Line removed, even if the trading company sounds rather interesting. SotL just works so well for the english UA.

off topic question, can a civ have more than just 2 uniques? I'd like to see each civ have as many as possible to keep them different.

back on topic! i like the OP's changes, especialy the workboats bit.

 

[Liquidated]

Been ruminating on the combat system's issues for a few days now, here are a few thoughts.

I'm leaning to having ranged attacks removed completely on non siege capable ships/land units and restrict their attacks to be considered 'melee' only.

The changes to play and the resulting balance issues would be pretty major but some of the basic ideas.

Bring back the first strike mechanics of civ4 to represent the level of skirmishing a unit uses. in naval terms, battleships would be all about first strikes vs other ships and flee in terror from air units.

Sub mechanics need to be handled carefully as their goal is to sink battleships and carriers (not to mention blockading trade), but avoid destroyers and scouting aircraft.

Destroyers would act as picket's for anti air and sub actions. actively searching for subs should cost movement and actions.

Battle ships would have a barrage option that extends to adjacent land tiles, kinda like in civ rev

For land units..

Archery units need to have their ranged attacks removed and replaced with a system of first strikes and pure running away

All land units would need a sort of mobility rating to represent how easy it is to withdraw. Obviously lightly armored, foot based skirmishing units like slingers and archers would never let slower moving armored infantry catch up to them, but woe if the pony express crashes into their formation

Low health of a unit is not just lost lives but also unit cohesiveness. Wounded units that flee need to be able to ignore stacking issues, so a 'Broken' state could be imposed such that they need an empty tile to 'rally' in to be considered combat units again.

Siege units should to be relegated to more of a support role though not sure how that would work exactly. The idea is that not even artillery is worth much without ground (and later air) support. At the base level, there needs to be a cap on how much ranged damage siege OR air can do to a unit. Damage from siege AND air would be even better. Say 70-75% health remaining with one, or 40-50% with both siege and air combined. Akin to how BTS ended up, but not as powerful.

The promotions are a mess. So many promotions need adjusting (e.g. bombardment) or flat out removing (e.g. logistics)

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Optimizer]

I think we have a disagreement here.

Personally, I would like to get rid of all civilization-unique units, buildings and abilities, and attach them to social policies, techs or other in-game conditions. The decision whether to have Ships of the Line in the Renaissance or Panzers during the Industrial Age should not be made at the startup menu; it should be made in-game, as part of the strategic challenge. Strategy is all about adaptation to new situation. Unique civ abilities isn't that.

Sure, Civ 5 determines the English to start at the coast, but if they find themselves at war against a land-locked neighbor with two ground units (such as France or Greece) their Ships of the Line or naval movement bonus would be worth zip. At a Pangea map an english AI is a sitting duck for such enemies, because they can't adapt.

Though I don't like it, I want to keep the custom that one civ either has two UUs, or one UU and one UB. This mod sketch achieves this.

Since I havent got Modbuddy yet, I cannot upload mods. So far, I can just mod my game, and describe the mod stats.

 

[Evalis]

About your harbor.. why make a building do the same thing as another UB? Why not make it give all ships the ability to repair outside of borders or something.

 

[Abremms]

Been ruminating on the combat system's issues for a few days now, here are a few thoughts.

I'm leaning to having ranged attacks removed completely on non siege capable ships/land units and restrict their attacks to be considered 'melee' only.

The changes to play and the resulting balance issues would be pretty major but some of the basic ideas.

Bring back the first strike mechanics of civ4 to represent the level of skirmishing a unit uses. in naval terms, battleships would be all about first strikes vs other ships and flee in terror from air units.

Sub mechanics need to be handled carefully as their goal is to sink battleships and carriers (not to mention blockading trade), but avoid destroyers and scouting aircraft.

Destroyers would act as picket's for anti air and sub actions. actively searching for subs should cost movement and actions.

Battle ships would have a barrage option that extends to adjacent land tiles, kinda like in civ rev

For land units..

Archery units need to have their ranged attacks removed and replaced with a system of first strikes and pure running away

All land units would need a sort of mobility rating to represent how easy it is to withdraw. Obviously lightly armored, foot based skirmishing units like slingers and archers would never let slower moving armored infantry catch up to them, but woe if the pony express crashes into their formation

Low health of a unit is not just lost lives but also unit cohesiveness. Wounded units that flee need to be able to ignore stacking issues, so a 'Broken' state could be imposed such that they need an empty tile to 'rally' in to be considered combat units again.

Siege units should to be relegated to more of a support role though not sure how that would work exactly. The idea is that not even artillery is worth much without ground (and later air) support. At the base level, there needs to be a cap on how much ranged damage siege OR air can do to a unit. Damage from siege AND air would be even better. Say 70-75% health remaining with one, or 40-50% with both siege and air combined. Akin to how BTS ended up, but not as powerful.

The promotions are a mess. So many promotions need adjusting (e.g. bombardment) or flat out removing (e.g. logistics)

Cheers!
-Liq

It's a matter of personal tastes maybe, but this is not a mod i would be interested in playing. there are some bits that could be good, like the "broken" and "rally" mechanic. but as far as the proposed changes to ranged combat, i must dissagree. I very much enjoy the base mechanics of V. ranged attacks should be able to kill units, i think caping thier damage would greatly diminish, if not altogether remove, thier usefullness.

you propose what boils down to a melee slugfest, i think you would lose alot of tactical depth that way. even with current mechanics, ranged units are useless without frontline troops. archers are only dangerous in groups, and they are rather fragile. cannon/artillery is more dangerous, but still fragile and need protection.

either way, If its a mod you would play, then have fun with it, I'm just providing feedback

 

[Optimizer]

About your harbor.. why make a building do the same thing as another UB? Why not make it give all ships the ability to repair outside of borders or something.

It was just an idea. Anything that can be modded can be considered, preferrably something that gives strategic depth.

Currently no buildings give experience points to new naval units. The English Trading Company could do that.

 

[Optimizer]

I'm leaning to having ranged attacks removed completely on non siege capable ships/land units and restrict their attacks to be considered 'melee' only.

I agree to a point, ramming and boarding were indeed the normal methods of naval warfare well into the 16th century.

In my setup, the Galley can only do melee attacks, crushing civilian ships, Triremes and Caravels, and standing a good chance against Frigates.

The Ship of the Line, Ironclad and Battleship should have double abilities, either crushing other ships with sheer weight, or bombardment.

I haven't used Submarines yet. How do they work? Can they bombard land hexes?

 

[Thalassicus]

I like the ideas of earlier embarkation with a more gradual progression, and changes to ship strengths.

Unless you're on archipelago, navies can be basically ignored until destroyers, which saddens me as a naval warfare fan. Barbarian ships don't even pillage your sea improvements anymore, they're just time-consuming and pointless target practice for your cities. Lighthouses and harbors are nearly worthless too, since:

• Coastal tiles had income cut 66% in V (compared to a Financial civ).
• It's typically more effective to connect cities by roads, which give a significant benefit to moving units around, and are ready to go when you reach railroads.

 

[Optimizer]

Barbarian ships don't even pillage your sea improvements anymore.

Hadn't noticed that before you said it.

Do civilized AI ships pillage?

I suggest lots of sea hex improvements; fishing nets, lighthouses etc, mainly because they would invite an enemy to pillaging.

In history, the main purpose of a navy was to defend the civilian economy from pirates. It should be the same thing in Civ.

 

[Optimizer]

So far, I haven't managed to give Workers ability to build Fishing boats. Anyone who had better luck?

The Ship of the Line comes with Archaeology.

I also delayed Destroyers until Telegraph, Battleships until Combustion, and Carriers until Radar, to extend the lifespan of Ironclads. I consider allowing Ironclads to cross ocean, but at a penalty.