NC LXIII: Pericles of Greece

[vranasm]

@capellan

watching your video.

General question (if you don't mind), you are from GB? Your accent seems to me like "british", I am not native speaker so it's always fun for me to hear another accents, compared to lymond, TMIT (US) or cam_h's australian .

To the game

Spoiler :

The worker first in your particular situation was wrong, since you have nothing to do for your worker and was actually clear from the beginning.
If you decided for SIP you should have went WB on some good production tile (1f2H in this case) then worker imo and catch up on the worker techs.

If you have settled 1S like me, there was only 2 turns of downtime for worker, since after improving corn, sheep, free mine I went to improve the wheat+gold which both popped into 3rd ring of cap's bfc just in time and I could have build settler on size 3 on strong tiles.
Much better that way imo .

 

[Habitus]

Well I'm having to restart due to

Spoiler :

getting daggered by Hannibal as i was moving to take India (pre-DoW on them so not a dogpile). Couldn't even bribe anyone in as i'd already brided Monty+Ghengis on Hannibal earlier and they had Peace Treaty lol. What i get thou for not noticing the build up of troops even without the too much time on our hands

*edit*

On WB start i went 9 turns 2f1h, 4 turns 1f2h since then you hit 2 Pop as the WB finishes, and then build a worker in 10 turns, normal speed of course

 

[Capellan]

I grew up in the UK until I was 12, then moved to Australia, so my accent is somewhat blended I guess. Probably more Australian than anything else, though, since I've been here since '86.

Re: game

Spoiler :

Worker first probably wasn't optimum but Creative saved it a bit since I got an extra border pop faster and could mine a couple of hills. I never actually idled my worker at all - though I did send him the wrong way for a turn or two at one point.

Still, if that's the worst misplay I make this game I will be doing well

 

[vranasm]

I grew up in the UK until I was 12, then moved to Australia, so my accent is somewhat blended I guess. Probably more Australian than anything else, though, since I've been here since '86.

Re: game

Spoiler :

Worker first probably wasn't optimum but Creative saved it a bit since I got an extra border pop faster and could mine a couple of hills. I never actually idled my worker at all - though I did send him the wrong way for a turn or two at one point.

Still, if that's the worst misplay I make this game I will be doing well

Spoiler :

well on monarch probably not
on immortal...that's a question ;-) these things like to stack up very quickly and missing on worker turns that early is definitely slowing your game.

but this land definitely sucks ;-) i hope we get some nice land from some of our beloved neighbours soon.

 

[Habitus]

Since i know most of start now, i'm going to watch your videos abit then replay it again till 1AD

 

[Archon_Wing]

Ah, insomnia. I couldn't let them get the best of me. It's pretty frustrating

1965 space

Spoiler :

The AIs were teching very fast for prince, possibly due to the bastard Mansa who had gotten massive.

Montezuma presented an opportunity, as he moved his stack east to attack someone. I closed borders to bounce him back and launched a sneak attack. A sneak attack with rifles and cannons was really overkill against his... jaguars and horse archers. Monte quickly concedes and Khan is the next victim.

Usually they wouldn't have the UN in the 1700s, but Wilem managed it, and he came very close to a diplo victory. The worst thing is that I am not even a candidate because Mansa has a larger population than me! Mansa's been scary during these NC games lately...

At this point Charlemagne oddly asked for vassalage to save him from Lincoln. I thought it was funny that he was getting his ass beat by puny lincoln so I accepted his vassalage...

At this point I realize THERES NO FRIGGIN OIL ANYWHERE NEARBY. Lincoln did have one city with offshore oil, and I figured, oh why the hell not. I don't absolutely need oil units, but at least it guarantees I have something to hope for when I get to plastics. Meanwhile, Wilem and Mansa are teching like madmen.

Anyhow, I sighed and attacked Hannibal, who I really had no intention of backstabbing as he had infantry like I did-- I just needed more land and pop so the UN would stop screwing me over. Also, he was coming very close to flipping the oil and the formerly American city of Chicago, so it had to be done.

I actually avoided Gilgamesh because he had massive forces and decent tech, while mine were waning. I go ahead and vassalize lincoln. Now I can block any pesky UN resolutions.

Everything depends on this well.

The internet nets me superconductors and Fascism. Not too shabby.

At this point Wilem completes Manhattan, a frightening prospect and is also gunning for culture. There's no way I can kill off everyone, especially Mansa/Isabella at this point. I decide space is best, but Wilem and Sitting Bull's culture thread is very large. Wilem will win soon if I don't do anything

Fortunately he's engaged in war with Japan, and a backstabbing opportunity presents itself. It's also fortunate he fired off his nukes...

Now I own the UN and Cristo; space techs are finally complete. This should be in the bag soon.

The remaining threats are Mansa and Sitting Bull. Mansa's been building lots of parts and Sitting Bull's cities have a lot of culture, but still far off. But in any case, I'm looking at war with Sitting Bull if necessary and will upgrade mech infantry/mobile artilery.

Fortunately, Mansa has built more parts than me, but he's not gonna beat me to space anytime soon....

Sitting Bull still has a few dozen turns to culture as I launch my spaceship, but since I hate him, I decide to nuke him for the hell of it. Sadly, my invasion force bore the brunt of his tactical nukes (man, he was doing well too!) but not before 2 cities, including his highest culture city was razed and his homeland reduced to a nuclear wasteland

 

[vranasm]

@capellan

after video 2 ;-)

Spoiler :

imo your city 2 is bad without special food is not good. Should use the wheat+sheep somehow, I don't like to force my decisions, but I think I did better with settling on the PH.

improve the gold over gh! putting 1T of mining into the GH - maybe fine, but definitely the gold should be first priority. You could have worked the gold while building the farm.

City 3 is imo good, but that wheat shoud be farmed asap.
You should chop more.
Building 1 library (in capital) is fine, building 3 is not. If you want to grow build units, else workers at size 2 with good tiles is reasonable build.

Btw it's good to check in early game what tiles the governor assigns too, he generally makes good decisions, but in the early game (size < 3 cities) he likes to work 2 food tiles, over GH's or gold tiles. Which happened to you in the north west city and partially the south city.

You stopped expansion too soon (could be on steam with chops).

You should improve your spawnbusting if you want to move up. The way you played the early game is not sufficient, the south, south east should be spawnbusted already (2 warriors are enough to basically fogbust the whole area).

 

[dalamb]

Just noticed, your Immortal WB only has Emperor bonus techs, and Deity only has Immortal bonus techs While it saved me time making an Emperor save up to play (ie didn't need to remove Agriculture from Civ that don't start with it in Immortal save) it does make the game abit easier for people who are going to play that difficulty (thou barely, since its probably a 2 turn research for AI)

Basically Immortal needs Agriculture added in, and Deity needs The Wheel added in.

Well, for many moons I've been adding Archery for Monarch, Hunting for Immortal, and Agriculture for Deity, like it says in the boilerplate, 'cause long ago somebody told me that's what the techs were supposed to be. So, even if it's wrong, it's at least consistent. If you've got a pointer to a list of exactly what the techs are supposed to be, I'll change it for next time.

WRT map size, I presumed I didn't need to mention it unless it was different from Standard -- and after the flap over the recent Large map, I'll say so outside the map spoiler.

WRT "crowded": not sure if that belonged outside a spoiler, but in any case with this map the average number of useful land tiles per civilization is close to the median of what the series has seen.

 

[Habitus]

Basically its, Archery for Monarch, Archery+Hunting for Emperor, Archery+Hunting+Agriculture for Immortal, Archery+Hunting+Agriculture+The Wheel for Deity, the Barbs even get these techs.

 

[dalamb]

Thanks! I wonder why nobody else remarked on it over these many months -- or did somebody say something that I blipped over and ignored? I'll edit the boilerplate in a day or two to be ready for next month time.

Unfortunately adding the techs for barbs requires a save file, not a WBsave, as someone pointed out last month, so we now have directions for how to do that in the boilerplate.

 

[Habitus]

@delamb

Spoiler :

I'd say its doesn't belong out the spoilers, plus as you said the land to civ is as normal so its no different to when you can get crowded on a normal map

Yeah most people get lazy adding the techs to barbs and just do the important one of Archery, thou the others do have an effect (if i remember right it makes Barb tech slightly quicker, which if barbs are left alone long enough and get LBs). Always found it weird WB saves don't have barb techs

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Decided to try a foundation approach on this map (what's the script? I really like it so far).

So Noble / Normal

I went worker first, of course, but a 12 turn work boat might be a nice way to deal with the stall....

Spoiler :

Standard opening tech path; in ideal play, I think you should pull the wheel in. The stalled worker turns get invested in a mine when the southern border pops on T29.

Then writing through Pottery - skipping Mysticism, as one would expect with a Creative leader.

Here at the first fork, I decided to go toward Monarchy, for the happy, because the lands look so barren, then Construction for the Catapults. To some extent, I need the time before construction to train Phalanxen anyway, but with none of the intermediate techs to Monarchy useful, maybe the other way around would be better.

Sparta's settler will go to the east side of the river - next to the sheep.

Hannibal will end up getting the city in the corner. He'll also post up a city in those barren hills for the iron.

Edit: vranasm solved the southern part of the island much better than I did. The key, I think, is to observe that (a) the corner has hills, and can burn down the surplus food easily, and (b) the river mouth is all flat - and cannot. Re-edit: that said, I don't understand the placement of Sparta at all.

Also, I'm convinced that in my Corinth placement, I fell into a trap. The gold is nice, so it's a perfectly cromulant little spot when the happy cap is 5 or so, but it really has no future beyond that. Wheat/Sheep/Stone, miserable as it is, actually has some potential as a commerce generator. I wouldn't want to build a summer home there, or anything, but it can contribute.

 

[Ororo]

Emperor, Normal, No huts, Up to 1 AD

Spoiler :

Settled 1S to get one more grassland hill. Land quality is so so, CS is gonna be an important tech for chain irrigation. Pericles is an excellent leader for SE, so I went early writing for a quick GS. As soon as I saw stone, I knew I was gonna be building Pyramids. Finally finished them at 550BC, which is a bit lucky as I saw Mids go around 900BC on Emperor.

Hannibal declared around 500BC despite being annoyed with Asoka, but I was prepared - had about 4 Phalanxes in a hill city with 40% cultural defense. I only lost one phalanx in this war. I went for some cottage-pillaging before signing this peace treaty.

Finally I ended up with 7 cities, GLib being built in Athens and S.Paya being built in Sparta for failure gold. Civil Service is gonna be important, as will Philosophy. I'll switch to Buddhism, Caste and Pacifism as soon as I get it. Music might be an option as well, as I'll definately go Lib -> Military Tradition. Cuirassiers seem like the best option here and I'm pretty confident about getting them around 1000AD.

 

[dalamb]

(what's the script? I really like it so far).

I identify scripts in the "map details" spoiler in the first message.

 

[Capellan]

@vranasm
after video 2

Spoiler :

Agree that city 2 was a bad call, and that I should have stopped mining the GH and got on with the gold earlier.

The library in city 2 was a bad idea. The library in city 3 I am still OK with, since it is my GP farm.

I haven't actually stopped expanding. I'll be up to 7 cities pretty shortly. I did get a bit distracted from it for a while. Luckily Carthage seemed determined not to expand for a long time there.

As far as moving up goes, I've beaten Emperor 3 times and even Immortal once, but I really do have to focus when I'm playing above Monarch, and I find it hard to do that while doing commentary. I like to think I would have made fewer mistakes if I were just playing the game and not also thinking about what I was saying. I may just be kidding myself about that, though

 

[Archon_Wing]

Wait...

Spoiler endgame question, don't click if you haven't finished this :

Is this still too far away from the equator to build the space elevator?

Maybe the game should tell you the latitude too. :/ I mean, it's already a terrible wonder, it's also restricted like hell.

 

[Golden Hawk]

If you're going for space, skip Space Elevator, it's only slowing you down since you don't need the tech for any SS parts.

 

[Archon_Wing]

^

Spoiler :

Yea, I'm aware of the general crappiness of the SE. But I was just waiting on the last parts to finish and wanting to burn off a recent GE for the hell of it. There just wasn't any place to build it.

So not only does it suck, you can only build it near the middle of the map.

 

[WelshGandalf]

Monarch, with huts, to 1AD.

Spoiler :

Settled 1S. Man this capital has a lot of food.

As with Ororo above, I wanted to go SE as it suits this leader perfectly. Was therefore chuffed to find stone, so I build pyramids in my 2nd city (se of capital, covers gold, sheep & wheat, nice production city). Get an early GS, who creates an academy in the capital.

Decide to war against Asoka, as he is a wimp & builds wonders. Due to the construction of the pyramids taking up much of my resources, my army isn't that great, about 10 phalanxes. Nonetheless, we take one city (narrow part of land by river) & also march on to take the capital... just (took it with my last unit). I take peace for a tech at this point due to my army's awful state & the Indian archer & chariot sitting outside the city. Totally worth it, though, as the Indian capital has stonehenge (so now my new cites get 3 culture a turn!), Temple of Artemis and, most importantly of all, the budddhist shrine, which got up to +18 gpt by 1AD. This solved my so-so economy... I was able to run at 100% science without losing money for a bit. I also got a GP around 100BC thanks to the GPP in Demlhi, I settled him in Delhi (future wall street city thanks to shrine).

Teched to construction, and am 1 turn away from CoL now. Philosophy next for religion & pacifism, followed by asthetics for GLib then CS. I have the tech lead on everyone I've met, though someone out there founded confu quite a few turns ago so I'm not winning the whole tech race.

Indians have 2 cities left & I'm at war with them again since the Aztecs asked. Not much of an army there atm as I'm trying to get some infrastructure & also bigger cities (now my happy cap is a lot higher with rep/odeons). I have 7 cities & will at least settle one more, around 65bpt, and all of 3 workers (I know, I know... I'm getting more!).

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'm on monarch because I want a little challenge.

One quick comment on something I noticed in your description

Spoiler :

So I went fishing boat first. I worked a plains forest to get the boat in 10 turns.

As a general rule, you don't want to do that. It's "faster" than growing to size two first, but it ends up leaving you a little bit behind at turn 12.

One of those stupid tricks that you learn to file away for future use.