r_rolo1
King of myself
REF should not be constant with dificulty. Otherwise you're favouring big colonies.
Necessary changes to the REF
- Thread starter Gliese 581
- Start date
Southern Hunter
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 23
Indeed. Big colonies are better than small colonies. That is fairly basic, and only somebody who has been playing Civ4Col for too long could think otherwise
Why on earth would we want to be penalizing someone for building big colonies?
r_rolo1
King of myself
Because bigger colony -> more armed threat -> more rebelious troops -> more response from the central governement. Simple, don't you think?
And bigger is not always better.....
And bigger is not always better.....
Turinturambar
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2005
- Messages
- 368
ICS should be harmful because of Natives, other European powers and limited population growth. Not because of a magic fleet that the king pulls out of thin air.
r_rolo1
King of myself
And the king sending the same fleet regardless of us having 12 soldiers or 120 is a good feature I assume.....
player1 fanatic
Fanatic
On the other hand, current model which pretty much scales REF to civ size penalizes big colonies.
For example, gain by conquering other colonial power is smaller then REF size increase you get from needing to add liberty bells to their towns.
Or gain from still expanding more and buying more population after some initial expansion is netting less gold then you would need if you faced smaller REF and stayed with smaller population.
100pop power is not generating twice more money (nor is armed twice faster) then 50pop power, due to various factors in game (from tax increases to education inflation), but still has around twice bigger REF.
In short, some combined approach for rising REF is needed, since both constant or scaled REF size, if used solely, penalize either big or small colonies.
r_rolo1
King of myself
The issue is that the game as it is has nothing to do about money. In the end what ultimately matters is to beat the REF ( you can't win in any other way ) and in there the pop is what ultimately matters ( assuming that you can get the REF up in time 
). More pop, more potential soldiers......
). More pop, more potential soldiers......
player1 fanatic
Fanatic
But every extra pop, mean more bells needed and bigger REF.
Expanding population in order to be stronger ulitatively failes with current settings, due to diminishing returns of production of that population.
Expanding population in order to be stronger ulitatively failes with current settings, due to diminishing returns of production of that population.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Fair enough... but pop != cities The current system makes little diference of me having 3 cities with 100 pop ( yeah, unrealistical ... just for the sake of example ) and 300 cities with 1 pop. So, liberty bell prod does not comply as ICS stopper measure
But someone was talking about liberty bells? That is a whole diferent stuff and I really can't understand why Firaxis decided to put so much stuff aglomerated in a single number....
Anyway, my whole point on this discussion assumes that Liberty bell influence on REF needs a overhaul. It is clear that they tried to use the revolucionary thresdhold + REF dependency of Liberty bells + the exponential prices of education to stop ICS, but the mechanics are deeply flawed.......
But someone was talking about liberty bells? That is a whole diferent stuff and I really can't understand why Firaxis decided to put so much stuff aglomerated in a single number....
Anyway, my whole point on this discussion assumes that Liberty bell influence on REF needs a overhaul. It is clear that they tried to use the revolucionary thresdhold + REF dependency of Liberty bells + the exponential prices of education to stop ICS, but the mechanics are deeply flawed.......
Well, yes, certainly better than at present. After all, you shouldn't even be thinking of handling a WOI against a European super power if you can only muster 12 soldiers.
Under the current design it's probably feasable to start the WOI so ill equipped because although the king can fielded a huge army on a european battlefield, he suddenly forgets he has such an army in col2. His army will more or less always be a constant amount larger than yours.
The mid - end game of col is an arms race. Like the cold war. But how boring is a arms race where if every time you build an army, your opponent instantly acquires two? If I build a super-rich colony, I should be able to close the gap on the king. Otherwise, what's the point?
However it's done, the difference between the colony army and REF should vary depending on how well your economy is running, how well you've treated the king, the rebel sentiment and the size of the rebel army.
This is reminding me of the level scaling in Oblivion....
As the song goes: "When you're scaling, the whole world scales with you".
VeteranLurker
Warlord
I agree with much of what has been proposed here. The REF should increase based on a combination of time/difficulty/game-length-setting as well as some calculation of rebel-sentiment/rebel-soldiers/cannons etc. I think difficulty level is crucial here -- who needs to be facing a 500-unit REF at Pioneer Level?
However, if I were to dream up an additional feature here, it would be this: Add back in the wars in Europe (from COL1). When wars occur in Europe, the current-REF gets involved. Imagine if this were a CIV game -- the REF isn't just sitting around waiting for rebels to pop up for a few hundred years, it would run off to invade/defend-against the neighboring powers based on relationships among the kings. Similarly, wars in Europe should necessarily spill over into the colonies -- until you rebel, you are a vassal of the crown and must fight their wars for them (or suffer consequences); though, with communication delays, this may take some time to occur. Same with the other colonies.
Basically what this would add is, during the game the REF could get reduced (and some of its units add promotions too). ALso, the REF comes to YOUR aid if someone else's colony attacks you (i.e., spillover of a colonial war to Europe -- it has to work both ways, as you are a sovereign colony or there are consequences; e.g., King refuses to help you in the colonial wars, your rebel sentiment gets a big/free one-time boost which is untied to REF production, though REF can continue to increase later in the usual/modified way). Similarly, tax increases due to European wars are inevitable. But I think the REF should not magically recoup its lost units if it gets losses in its other colonial/European wars.
An additional step, probably for a penultimate type mod, is to have specific zones on the map which represent the various European-waters of each major power (i.e., this is the only place you can sail to England, not just sailing off the tip of South America and getting to England too) -- if they go to war with each other, they send their MoWs to each other's waters to attack the merchant shipping, in addition to sending them to colonial waters. So, your REF navy can provide you with protection, or refuse and your rebel sentiment increases.
Lastly, to flesh this out further, the European powers should have their own political dealings (+/- relations with each other, "you sank my merchant ship" stuff) like in CIV. And war weariness. Recall that that was a factor for England in the RW WoI. If the REF has been fighting the King's wars for 200 years, then gets called on to put down some unwashed rebels, well maybe they aren't too motivated for that and suffer a strength penalty due to war weariness.
Hmm, but how to control the units doing the intervention... You request units for assistance against native/colonial-attack -- does the AI give you some REF units for your use? Then you give them back after hostilities are over? Or the king lets you keep them if you have good relations? Otherwise, the AI must control them -- how would it do this competently? Say your merchant ship is sailing to Europe, there is a war going on, it needs protection -- how do you group your ship with an AI MoW to sail it to Europe? Similarly, a shipload of soldiers are sent to help you fight the war in the New World -- where do they go? what is their mission? do they go to your capital and radiate out from there on their own? or can the AI determine where enemy units are (from your known map) and deal with them that way? It is like being a vassal or ally with the AI in CIV, but with complication: it is one thing to have to hold your own until the king's troops arrive to help you in the New World (and have them arrive and do something reasonable at least for them if not for you or not in a timely manner), it is another for those troops to say sail around randomly because the AI is incompetent.
However, if I were to dream up an additional feature here, it would be this: Add back in the wars in Europe (from COL1). When wars occur in Europe, the current-REF gets involved. Imagine if this were a CIV game -- the REF isn't just sitting around waiting for rebels to pop up for a few hundred years, it would run off to invade/defend-against the neighboring powers based on relationships among the kings. Similarly, wars in Europe should necessarily spill over into the colonies -- until you rebel, you are a vassal of the crown and must fight their wars for them (or suffer consequences); though, with communication delays, this may take some time to occur. Same with the other colonies.
Basically what this would add is, during the game the REF could get reduced (and some of its units add promotions too). ALso, the REF comes to YOUR aid if someone else's colony attacks you (i.e., spillover of a colonial war to Europe -- it has to work both ways, as you are a sovereign colony or there are consequences; e.g., King refuses to help you in the colonial wars, your rebel sentiment gets a big/free one-time boost which is untied to REF production, though REF can continue to increase later in the usual/modified way). Similarly, tax increases due to European wars are inevitable. But I think the REF should not magically recoup its lost units if it gets losses in its other colonial/European wars.
An additional step, probably for a penultimate type mod, is to have specific zones on the map which represent the various European-waters of each major power (i.e., this is the only place you can sail to England, not just sailing off the tip of South America and getting to England too) -- if they go to war with each other, they send their MoWs to each other's waters to attack the merchant shipping, in addition to sending them to colonial waters. So, your REF navy can provide you with protection, or refuse and your rebel sentiment increases.
Lastly, to flesh this out further, the European powers should have their own political dealings (+/- relations with each other, "you sank my merchant ship" stuff) like in CIV. And war weariness. Recall that that was a factor for England in the RW WoI. If the REF has been fighting the King's wars for 200 years, then gets called on to put down some unwashed rebels, well maybe they aren't too motivated for that and suffer a strength penalty due to war weariness.
Hmm, but how to control the units doing the intervention... You request units for assistance against native/colonial-attack -- does the AI give you some REF units for your use? Then you give them back after hostilities are over? Or the king lets you keep them if you have good relations? Otherwise, the AI must control them -- how would it do this competently? Say your merchant ship is sailing to Europe, there is a war going on, it needs protection -- how do you group your ship with an AI MoW to sail it to Europe? Similarly, a shipload of soldiers are sent to help you fight the war in the New World -- where do they go? what is their mission? do they go to your capital and radiate out from there on their own? or can the AI determine where enemy units are (from your known map) and deal with them that way? It is like being a vassal or ally with the AI in CIV, but with complication: it is one thing to have to hold your own until the king's troops arrive to help you in the New World (and have them arrive and do something reasonable at least for them if not for you or not in a timely manner), it is another for those troops to say sail around randomly because the AI is incompetent.
personally i think 3 factors should play in,
1) How much money has he been taxing?
2) Time (HIM has other incomes too)
3) Sentiments, he might have a huge or a small army.. but how many are he sending, dioes he really hate your guts? Or is it more of a family quarrel..?
Sending maybe 10% to possibly every last single man or child capable of carrying arms... and begging ancient enemies to aid in destroying ... this... INSOLENT UPSTART!
1) How much money has he been taxing?
2) Time (HIM has other incomes too)
3) Sentiments, he might have a huge or a small army.. but how many are he sending, dioes he really hate your guts? Or is it more of a family quarrel..?
Sending maybe 10% to possibly every last single man or child capable of carrying arms... and begging ancient enemies to aid in destroying ... this... INSOLENT UPSTART!
Isnt the whole point... or should be.. to do as well as ever possible.. and not "trying to do poorly". Now that would be quite insane.
And this insanity is precisely the reason why the current system must go.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Ok, about the whole size of REF vs size of colony ( or not ):
1- I don't agree with current system
2- I don't agree with colonies being prejudicated in their war of indepence because of their size, regardless of the prejudice being for the small or big colonies.
3- I don't think that it makes sense that the king sends a force with no relation with the actual expected resistance, no matter if it uses liberty bells or time or dificulty level or anything else. Otherwise, besides being stupid in historical terms, will only open exploits.
1- I don't agree with current system
2- I don't agree with colonies being prejudicated in their war of indepence because of their size, regardless of the prejudice being for the small or big colonies.
3- I don't think that it makes sense that the king sends a force with no relation with the actual expected resistance, no matter if it uses liberty bells or time or dificulty level or anything else. Otherwise, besides being stupid in historical terms, will only open exploits.
Gliese 581
Your average civ junkie
I'm not so much concerned with realism as I am with a fun challenging play. I think it's necessary to always face a huge REF on the highest difficulties or it will not be very fun or challenging. The King already sends his troops in waves which enables you to win with a (sometimes) much smaller army. If the king were to calculate what kind of army you could field and then match his own, thinking his troops superior, but only sending a part of his army at a time, then his units would be slaughtered.
r_rolo1
King of myself
@Gliese
1- I'm not very concerned with realism as well , but if we can have realism too .....
2- I didn't said that the size of REF should not have other things in consideration besides the expected resistance ( in fact I said exactly the oposite ). And dificulty is definitely one of the things that should be included. I only said that not including expected resistance will always lead to some kind of exploit.
3-The fact that the REF comes in waves is stupid in itself and it is not impossible to lose the game because of that. And it doesn't make any kind of sense too in RL terms: c'mon, you prepare a Royal Expedicionary Force to deal with rebels and then you only send 1/10 of it at the time, letting the rest in home drinking beer?
1- I'm not very concerned with realism as well , but if we can have realism too .....
2- I didn't said that the size of REF should not have other things in consideration besides the expected resistance ( in fact I said exactly the oposite ). And dificulty is definitely one of the things that should be included. I only said that not including expected resistance will always lead to some kind of exploit.
3-The fact that the REF comes in waves is stupid in itself and it is not impossible to lose the game because of that. And it doesn't make any kind of sense too in RL terms: c'mon, you prepare a Royal Expedicionary Force to deal with rebels and then you only send 1/10 of it at the time, letting the rest in home drinking beer?
What gap. You spam bases until you have 10 zillion dragoons and another zillion produced each turn. Win.
Well, yes. But I was referring to how things would work in an ideal Col2 that you could win by playing rather than by exploiting.
Also, I'm probably missing an exploit or 2, but if you have 10 zillion dragoons, won't the king instantly acquire 15 zillion through some magical means?
Col1 wasn't this flawed was it?...seriously considering digging out my Col1 DOS discs and firing up DOS box....
The whole point of the game should be to expand your colony, economy and military to the point where you are powerful enough to take on a pre-existing super power, your king. That's what happened in real life! If you can expand your strength to the point where you can get "10 zillion dragoons and another zillion produced each turn", what should happen is you should congratulate youself for playing really well, and you should move up in difficulty or go for an earlier win.
What didn't happen in real life is that the King did not go "Oh, well this tiny colony didn't produce much revolutionary sentiment prior to going into open rebellion, I guess I'll commit an insufficient number of soldiers to the Royal Epiditionary Force and then give up, even though I'm a super-power and would happily crush any colony that produced a lot of revolutionary sentiment prior to going into open rebellion with 500 troops". Because that's pants-on-head ********.
It is a plain and simple fact that C4C as it currently stands is ******** because of how the REF scales. We saw, in this forum, experienced CIVers get beaten on easy difficulties until they figured out the ******** REF mechanic, and now they can effortlessly beat the game on the hardest difficulty in less than 50 turns. And people are defending this mechanic!?
Fix it, fix it, fix it.
What didn't happen in real life is that the King did not go "Oh, well this tiny colony didn't produce much revolutionary sentiment prior to going into open rebellion, I guess I'll commit an insufficient number of soldiers to the Royal Epiditionary Force and then give up, even though I'm a super-power and would happily crush any colony that produced a lot of revolutionary sentiment prior to going into open rebellion with 500 troops". Because that's pants-on-head ********.
It is a plain and simple fact that C4C as it currently stands is ******** because of how the REF scales. We saw, in this forum, experienced CIVers get beaten on easy difficulties until they figured out the ******** REF mechanic, and now they can effortlessly beat the game on the hardest difficulty in less than 50 turns. And people are defending this mechanic!?
Fix it, fix it, fix it.
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