Need help with bad start (immortal)

[ikotomi]

Hi, first time posting here. I've recently picked up civ 4 again while on vacation with limited internet and things to do. I played a lot of vanilla and war lords, but was burnt out by the time BTS came out with all the new mechanics and balance changes (and dropped civ for a very long time after not liking civ 5).

That being said, I don't really remember getting farther than prince difficulty, so it really does feel like a new game coming back to it now. I've been beating Emperor pretty regularly but haven't really been able to break through on Immortal, though the last game I played felt pretty close if I managed the late game better.

The current start I'm playing feels really weak (screenshot and saves are attached), to the point where I really wished I had some help figuring out the direction I should be going.

Settings are Immortal difficulty, Standard Fractal with Medium Sea Level, playing as Elizabeth. At the time of the screenshot I have TW (goody hut), Agriculture, AH, Masonry, and am working on Alphabet.

When I first saw the jungle and desert, and after popping TW from a goody hut, I researched Masonry so that I could make a play for Pyramids and possibly Great Library.

What I didn't realize was how close Saladin was towards the south (and he's already pushed a city closer to me). Pacal is also directly south east of the screenshot.

I built a third settler before starting on the Pyramids (stone should be connected in 2 turns), but then realized I was at a total loss of what to do. I wanted to settle at the location marked with a dot, so I could eventually work the fish, and temporarily work the oasis in the capital until I get the border pop, but if I'm committing to the Pyramids, I feel like I'll be boxed in too much in the early game.

The only other option seems like 1S or 1SE of the corn tile, but I feel like it's a real waste of the gems and silk that will end up right outside of the BFC.

Can I have some advice on where to put the third settler? Is going for the wonder spam a bad call here? I can't really see where I would want to expand even if I decided to go for more settlers instead of wonders.

Thanks!

 

[lymond]

you got plains cow glitched. That is an absolutely horrible start. Food is king. Not much to say here other than I usually re-roll a starting cap with only a plains cow for food...you don't even have flood plains. OR I would look to move settler to a better position with more food...not sure what you were able to see after moving your warrior initially.

Otherwise, Mids can be a good play with stone, but it's value is relative to the amount of food you have. There ain't much here.

It can be fun to dig out of harder situations if you have experience, but if you are looking to learn and moving right up from Prince to Imm, I'd look for a bit better starting situations.

As a side note, while that fish/corn city looks like a decent long term city it will take a very long time to do anything at all...unless you were Creative. Look to settle early cities so that they have immediate value, i.e., immediate access to food for production, strat resource for attack, or gold, gems for research. In this case, I might settle next to corn, maybe to the south, and leave that fish for later when you can bring that city online faster with some culture.

Wheat/sheep may have been a bit better of a settle to make a relatively more productive city. Stone would be picked up by Cap's culture eventually anyway.

If you were to continue this game, I'd probably not worry much about Mids and settle a very compact 3 or 4 decent cities while working your way to Elepults...then go capture better land.

 

[Pangaea]

Looks pretty crummy tbh, with no real capital food. Forget the Mids for now. It's very expensive, even with stone, and Rep is only good when you have a big empire and can run many specialists (extra early is still good ofc).

You have elephants and plenty of forests. Perhaps secure the Oracle, take Construction, and go elepulting.

The fish spot is nice, but only a bit later. Think I'd prioritise the corn first, for instance SE of it, plus the sheep. No cities will be great, but they'll be decent enough. A compact empire means low maintenance, allowing you to tech faster towards horseback riding (and math if you can't trade for it).

Looks like possibly a rough ride, though. Since you are new to Immortal, perhaps better to re-roll and get a capital with proper food and some riverside grassland for cottaging. It makes everything so much easier when you can specialise the capital for commerce, build cottages and run Buro once you research civil service.

 

[ikotomi]

Thanks. I realize what you're saying about the Mids. I saw that the map gave me stone and not much else, and thought at the time that was the best option (I didn't think about using elephants for an early rush).

I looked at the initial save, and am pretty sure that the warrior revealed the corn at the start. It seems like I still have a lot to learn because I didn't even realize it was irrigated from the oasis tile until I settled my third city and farmed it.

Given the starting screenshot, short of rerolling, would it be a better idea to move the settler to work the corn? I think at the time I thought the few extra river tiles were a little more attractive, and I feel like the game tries to throw a few extra resources in the starting position that I could gamble on being some other food resource (I also thought the corn was dry for what it's worth).

Starting position aside, I played some more turns, and finished the Mids without the above advice in mind at the time. After Alphabet, I was able to trade for Hunting, Pottery, Mysticism, Bronze Working, Iron Working, Sailing, and Archery trading Writing and Alphabet to Hannibal and Isabella. After the initial round of workers I started building while waiting for alphabet to finish completed, I started working on getting my granaries up in the three cities I founded. Around that turn, I met Sulleiman, which was a huge boon because I was able to get the trade routes with him from Sailing.

I also researched about half way through Maths, but found that both Pacal and Isabella both ended up teching it themselves, though they aren't willing to trade yet. Pacal is the worst enemy of Isabella, because of different religions, but he should be the easiest to get to Friendly because I have easy access to Hereditary Rule thanks to my "misplay" with the Mids. My gut instinct makes me not want to trade a lot with Pacal early on in order to prevent conflicts with Saladin and Isabella who are both Hindu, but I honestly don't know how much I can push diplomacy to stay on good enough terms with both (Saladin would be the first target since he's right next to me, so I'm guessing in the future I will become Hindu).

At this point in time 122/405 beakers in Maths. Is it better to self research it myself so I can get the benefits of chops before HBR and Construction, or would it be better to go for HBR and wait for AI to trade me Maths and the following techs? I'm also not sure if trying to break out with an early war will necessarily be successful as Saladin is Protective, but with only two cities on hills.

*Edit* Another thing I didn't note was that Hastings got Hinduism from trade routes, so it will be able to get Horses pretty soon.

 

[Pangaea]

If you are unsure if a tile has freshwater or not (from an offcreen river for example), you can hover over the tile and it will mention "Fresh water" if that is the case.

An interesting option since you get GE points may have been to go for Croosbowmen from a Machinery bulb. But think you needed to avoid Fishing for that That naturally means that often it's impossible or infeasible.

You'll get Math in trade at some point since others have it, so best to go for HBR I reckon, if the idea is Elepulting. You actually have (or can easily get) access to all strategic resources here, which gives you many options, despite the food poor start.

 

[lymond]

Yeah, analyzing that first screen you have there, I might have moved 1S of the cows. You see there that the only possible tile for food is a plains tile, so that doesn't bode well. Turns out it was only marble anyway as well. Given the starting location doesn't bode well for Bureau then you look for a good production city just to get your empire up fast...wet corn helps a lot.

You don't have to roll HOF starts, like tons of food and gold/gems, but right now I'd look for starts with at least one good food resource like a wet corn or grass pigs, and some good good green river tiles. Ofc, the more food the merrier.

Yep, xbows are certainly out, but not sure that would be a great option anyway. Elepults looks like your best option to get better land, as the land you have just isn't going to do much for you long term depending on what you want to do with this game.

If at all possible, look to trade for most techs that AIs prioritize like Maths, IW,etc. HBR will net you some more trades later as well - just be careful who you trade it too. Maths should open up for trade soon. with Philo leaders, it's not a bad idea to get up a fast library and use that first GS to bulb Maths while having Oracle ready to finish to use on Construction - in this case. Not sure here if Oracle is still an option, but doubt it.

 

[ikotomi]

Thanks a lot everyone. The Oracle went at 2080, so I didn't really have any chance at a fancy slingshot (is this even possible without starting mysticism?). To be honest, I haven't felt like I had a real shot at something nice in even the Emperor games I've played, and it feels like a real risky gamble when the map itself is playable while a failed Oracle rush would probably cause me to rage quit the map.

I got caught up in the game and didn't keep track of everything that went on, but I ended up trading HBR for Maths and finishing Construction around 350 BC. After chopping all my trees and whipping my cities, I attacked Saladin around 25 BC with around 15 elephants and 4 catapults (This is judging from the auto-saves, I had elephants scattered around my civilization cleaning up invading units that were scouting around).

At this point, I wasn't able to bribe anybody into wars with Saladin, and to make things worse, somehow despite having different religions, he was pleased with almost everyone. It seems like the only one he was able to bribe in against me was Isabella, who at this point hasn't accomplished anything.

I feel like even with the delayed Construction, I waited a little to long attack, as the war with Saladin seems is a complete steamroll. I'm also not sure if I can catch up in tech or recover economically since I haven't been running research. I managed somehow to get Currency off of Suleiman for HBR, so I'm hoping building wealth can help me boost research once I stop building more elephants.

All in all, despite being a bad start, I did learn a lot (like how strong elephants can really be). I think going for the attack allowed me to get a foot in the door, and also helped me learn a lot of mistakes to avoid. If people are interested, I can continue getting more screenshots and posting progress, but I think the initial question of the thread (how do I work with this start) has been answered.

 

[Kid R]

Hi - congrats on delurking

I continued on in a peacemongery manner from your opening and quit after Pacal libbed about 25 turns before me.

What I did from where you were was quit teching alphabet and just got all the worker techs normally, also quit building the mids and rushed 3 settlers out to the green belt and cottaged them up (well grew up on farms first). No wonders, no gambits, just standard expansion and city development. Didn't think the land immediately around London would support an elepult war but it sounds like you did manage to get something going.

For me the slow start meant being constantly behind in tech so I never had anything I could start wars with. And like you never a single red fist either - despite 4 different religions in play and a couple of zealots - v odd and frustrating! But in any case Sulieman and his vassal Hannibal were running away, with like half the total land right down the other end of the island, so even if we had holy wars at our end it would be tough to catch up with them in the long run.

Would attempt CV if continuing I think. Got 3 middling fin cottage cities, 2 well-spread religions and fish/corn philo GP farm, although 2 GS already. Unlikely win from here so calling it a day.

Interesting start though - thanks for sharing it Def worth playing - the good thing about playing quickly and rather sloppily (definitely my recommendation!) is you can give every start a shot. If it goes bad it's no big deal, and sometimes you can pull a win out of an unpromising situation which is very satisfying!

 

[Pangaea]

What I did from where you were was quit teching alphabet and just got all the worker techs normally

For me the slow start meant being constantly behind in tech so I never had anything I could start wars with.

This basically explains why. That said, the poor start does make it more tricky, no doubt about it.

 

[Kid R]

Pushing out those block cities didn't really fit with beelining alphabet though IMO - that's why I abandoned it. Too much basic tech needed now, at nicely-spaced times, ready for worker readinesses and city settlings. Not in one big unmanageable load all at once later on. Was definitely a long-term strategy though... and more delay means just as much of a gamble in different ways ofc.

On reflection I actually did get the mids by accident due to lack of build options in the capital!
Meant to take failgold but forgot to cancel. CV more realistic with plenty of and US available. Will continue for a bit...

 

[ikotomi]

I had a LOT of hammers from mining and masonry so I just let the outer cities grow to population three and built one round of workers while waiting for alphabet to finish. To be honest, I didn't feel like it was too necessary to get all of the basic worker techs, and was the first to alphabet before that first round of workers even finished.

It also timed nicely with my last city next to the jungle, because I got iron working and sailing from alphabet trading really soon after finishing pyramids and building an extra settler, which allowed that city to almost instantly become useful because I was able to clear the rice and get the cultural border pop from auto religion spread immediately, as well as start on the granary I got from pottery. I don't think I've ever started expanding into the jungle as nicely as that.

Even if it was slow, I was able to work the nicest tiles which made waiting for alphabet worth it imo, because not getting it would have slowed down iron working, maths, etc, even more. My only regret was going for the Mids and settling the crappy stone city instead of the stronger sheep, but I feel like I got Construction reasonably (I built libraries in three cities while waiting for HBR, Construction, so I got some of the Representation bonus before I whipped the extra pop after Construction).

I don't really have the energy to retry the entire game, but I feel like going for Mids didn't slow down the tech rate that much if at all. You need Masonry for Construction anyways, and because I hard built the libraries, I had at least 6 or 7 turns of 4 science specialists with the Representation bonus. Those libraries could have been workers, but the land was so bad I had already been working the nicer tiles (though I do not have any cottages up at all). I still think it would have been better to use those hammers for workers, as it would lead to more chopping, and I might have had some cottages developing before I brought down the whip, but I feel like the Pyramids didn't end up being a complete waste of hammers this game, as the alternative wasn't going to be particularly amazing.

If I didn't misplay with the research order, attacked with a little less elephants, and some AI demands that caused extra turns of anarchy, I could have pushed the rush even earlier (10-15 turns maybe?).

 

[ikotomi]

Decided to get some more screenshots as it looks like one person is still following the game.

I entered war the turn before 25 AD, with 18 elephants and 4 catapults. I will lose 1 elephant to a spearman that was scouting in my border, as well as the elephant I'm about to whip to the spearman just northeast of York.

In the screenshot I am about to lose another elephant to the archer Northeast of Baghdad at 99.9% odds. I reloaded that auto-save and redid that fight just to make sure that actually happened, and unfortunately it did. I'll take the karma though as I took a long string of wins at 65% odds after that.

I reached Mecca at 225 AD, and managed to take the city in 250 AD without losing any elephants. This was where I stopped last night, and have been thinking a bit about where to go from here.

I have 20 elephants (not all joined with my stack yet), and 4 catapults. I'm behind quite a lot in tech, and Suleiman researched Aesthetics that I was working on right before the war, so I don't know if I'll be able to get enough trade value out of it. If I run the tech slider at 100%, I'll be able to finish in 4 turns, but I'll be on a timer to finish off the rest of the cities (Elephants move so slow compared to Cuirassiers ).

Isabella has also moved a few units near Hastings, so I don't know if a stack is coming my way anytime soon.

My immediate plan is to split my stack into two, and attack Damascus and Kufah simultaneously, followed with the southern and northern troll cities with the same stacks. What I'm not sure is if it's a stronger play to continue the war machine against Isabella and continue building elephants and running tech at 0%, or shift back into peaceful development and try to recover with Aesthetics and wealth building.

 

[SpK]

Elephants promote xD
I'd aim for wealth, but don't stop the elephants-
Can you keep capturing enough for gold to raise your slider? If a city isn't good, raze it, get the gold, ditch the maintenance. .... can be settled later [or the area captured from someone else, who settled in a newer weaker city ;-)] once your economy is stronger.

 

[Kid R]

If you don't get killed by Isabella I'd say adopt Pacal's religion as soon as practical. Once everything west of the choke is friendly things would be much easier.

I rushed a load of cathedrals and clicked through to culture in 1840 Not a majorly bad map for Liz really in the end. There's lots of grass although a bit too far away, and a decent hammer capital with stone and marble would suit some wonderspam and heavy specialist-settling.